My best rifle choice?
Nanuq907
Member Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭✭
Howdy gents, I'm about to reveal my utter lack of knowledge about AR style rifles, but so be it. I don't claim to know everything. Here goes:
Son in Law manages a local tactical store and he's pretty sure I need a short / light AR type rifle. I have my trusty Mossberg 12ga. and my Colt .357 and .44 for hiking. I figure the Mossberg and .44 are plenty for bear deterrents. But he pointed something out... sometimes it's nice to have more like 30 rounds instead of 6. With the advent of a Biden presidency, I can agree.
So he showed me a couple. One is a "Blackout" 300, the other is a LWCR .308 on consignment. The Blackout apparently takes a slightly smaller cartridge, and they're tough to get here in Alaska. The LWCR apparently takes a .308 cartridge and he says those are available everywhere in Alaska... if people are hunting they're going to stock those rounds.
The Blackout he says packs a good punch. He says the LWCR will be more like getting hit by a bus. The Blackout can be had with a couple simple mods for around $1,000 and the LWCR is apparently worth around $4,000 and it's on consignment for about $3,000.
If I have to use the thing, I intend to stop what I shoot with one round. I can guarantee one well placed round before the critter is on me. They both weigh about the same, both look the same, same size, different prices.
So what should I choose and why? I doubt it will ever come to it, no human would be fool enough to come up on the mountain looking for trouble. But I can see having to shoot a 1,000# brown bear or a 1,200# moose that wants to stomp me. Both rifles are lighter than my Mossberg and both look like they can be abused a little and still function.
Which would you pick and why?
Comments
The 300 BO was designed from the 5.56 case. Making the cases from 5.56 is a long process and a PIA to do it right, including turning the necks. The idea was to toss heavy for caliber(180gr on up) pills at subsonic speeds to enable them to be more effectively suppressed. It is the old 300 Whisper, renamed and SAMMI standardized. It will stop a bear or moose DRT just after either one of them stomps you into a bloody, broken mud hole.
The 308 will work, especially with 30 rounds of top shelf hunting bullets but 3 grand is a lot of money for a maybe and rare occurrence.
I would go with the 450 Bushmaster in the AR platform with factory fodder. It is close to the 45-70 and from my experience, the Hornaday FTX bullet is a one shot stopper out to 200 yards. If you already own an AR lower all it takes is the purchase of a 500 buck upper, a red dot and a couple of 450 magazines.
The reason for the 300 Blackout's being is suppressed personal defense against the two legged offenders. Using heavy, slow moving bullets. It's a neat round unsuppressed too, usually 125 grain bullets about 2,300 fps IIRC. Which puts it in the 7.62X39 and 30 WCF arena - a fair amount less than the 30 WCF depending on loading. Don't think I'd rely on it for anything big & hairy.
I suppose one can spend $3K on an AR 10 type rifle. I built mine on the cheap for about $450.00 a few years back - $99.00 lower from PSA, other parts from SOTA and Numrich and scrounging leftovers building for friends, keeping their cast off parts when they upgrade. I think you can but a good, ready made AR 10 type for about $800.00 or so. Still, don't think I'd use a 308 against Alaska bears. Even 20 or 25 rounds at a time. Maybe I'm wrong.
AR 10 types come in 300 WinMag and up too. If someone has their heart set on an AR there's probably a caliber that works on bears. Will run big $$$ when a Browning 81 would probably work as well.
There is no way I would use the 300 blackout for bear. Past 100 yds the results I've had on hogs has been marginal
I'd go with the .308. The LWRC is very nice, but you can probably find an AR-10 rifle that will suffice for much less.
If you're really determined to spend a lot of money and knock down a big bear you could step up to the Noreen 'Bad News' in .338 Lapua...
It's a tad bit heavy at 13 pounds empty, though!
Here's a .300 Win Mag at only 9 pounds.
Or maybe a 7 pounder?
😀
I'm a 300 BLK fan. I shoot both suppressed (sub-sonic) and unsuppressed (super-sonic).
I have taken deer with both. Super-sonic loads (light, fast bullets) function about like a 308 at shorter ranges (<100 yds).
Sub-sonics however, require precision placement of the bullet for quick kills, otherwise mortally wounded deer will go a few hundred yards before expiring. (Translate this info for self-defense against humans).
I convert 223 brass into 300 BLK without much problem so the supply of brass is unlimited.
300 BLK, being 30 caliber is legal for deer here in Virginia while 223 is not.
Minute of Heart - 300 BLK
With the 300BLK you can acquire a spare upper (or just a barrel) in any one of several calibers and change calibers depending on the task at hand.
Son in Law manages a local tactical store and he's pretty sure I need a short / light AR type rifle. I have my trusty Mossberg 12ga. and my Colt .357 and .44 for hiking. I figure the Mossberg and .44 are plenty for bear deterrents. But he pointed something out... sometimes it's nice to have more like 30 rounds instead of 6. With the advent of a Biden presidency, I can agree.
So what should I choose and why? I doubt it will ever come to it, no human would be fool enough to come up on the mountain looking for trouble.
The real question is 'do you feel the need to own an AR platform rifle before Biden takes office'?
The second question is 'what use do you expect to put this rifle to' ?
Is this rifle going to be useful or only to possess because of politics?
If you can expect to make good use of it, buy something chambered in a useful cartridge.
This is the high point of the price/availability curve for the entire nation. Everything for firearms costs more right now and ammunition is usually only available at extortionist prices down here.
If I was making decisions about buying anything AR currently, it would be a private sale to preclude any paperwork involving the FEDS. This includes your SIL also. If I didn't reload the choice would be the ammunition available in volume and in a common cartridge.
Personal protection in your situation has more than one answer, big animals or foolish humans coming up the mountain. Examine your needs then answer the questions.
Best.
I'll throw one more into the mix , the 350 Legend
again based on the 223 blowed out into a straight walled case , fits into a AR15 and several different blot action and single shot rifles , most bullets weights are in the 150 gr to 175 , coming close to the 30-30
ammo is available at most stores even WalMart has it , Winchester white box practice ammo runs about $10/20 round box , hunting ammo runs from about $20 to 25 per box of 20
not really a bear round probably would do the job with a couple hits but not the best for that job, but on deer and hogs or 2 legged it will get the job done
my daughter dropped a 200lb Wisconsin whitetail with one shot , DRT
I agree with this. Decide what purpose are you buying the weapon for and direct your search to that. If it's for SHTF then cartridge choice should be something common and scrounge-able.
I sold several AR rifles,including a 300 Blackout.I have no problem with any of the AR calibers,I just dont care for the AR platform.It seems awkward even with 5 round flush fit mags.I understand ARs have their place where they shine,but not for me.I have even less use for the AK platform.
I wouldn’t be a buyer at today’s prices. If you believe you need an AR right now, perhaps you can borrow one from your SIL’s personal collection until the madness settles down?
Loads of good advice, thanks all. Another option he suggested was one that can use AK Russian surplus ammo. Available and cheap.
Primary use would be throwing it over my shoulder before a 3 hour hike. I carry the Mossberg or .44 and even so there are places I won’t go. He pointed out that 30 bangs is better than 6 if something big comes out of the alders unexpectedly. And it’s a lot lighter than the Mossberg.
"If I have to use the thing, I intend to stop the thing with one round".... if that's your intent, then go big, or stay home. There's no replacement for displacement.. As Bruce mentioned, the 450 Bushmaster might fit the bill in an AR platform well..
Nanuq907, Please look at the BAR in .338WM. I killed a lot of moose and caribou while living in Alaska with it. Four shots of .338WM will either stop the issue or it was not your day....
Bubba if you want to buy a new gun that's cool, but if you are talking about stopping a bear that 12 ga is in my opinion much better, loaded properly, than any ar rifle. I don't think many game wardens in bear country would disagree.
You have way more than 30 rds or AR if you take that mossberg and fill it up with 3" 00 buck 15 pellets per round. Throw in a few and finish up with a 3" slug. Just don't plan on making a rug out of the hide.
Don't have to deal with big bears here but I'm kind of in agreement with most. Load up the mossy with slugs and buckshot . If you want an ar or an ak platform to tee off the liberals then buy one .
Buying an AR now is gonna be expensive...................but I like them.
Maybe you should look at a .44 Mag lever action that you could pair with a .44 Mag revolver. That would take care of bear and ammo is common and easily reloadable.
Huh. I never thought of it like that. You're absolutely right. Although a minor change: finish with Round Ball 2. Those .650" balls are devastating and only spread a few inches at 20 yards.
Watch the Alaska State Troopers show on TV and you're right, those guys always carry a 12ga.
There are Blue shirt Troopers that patrol the streets, and Brown shirt Troopers that patrol the bush. Both of them use the 12ga.
That's cause they aren't allowed to call in air strikes and a properly loaded 12 ga. is the next best thing inside 40 yards.
Yep if you want a new gun get an AR in 5.56mm. Ammo is fairly cheap and plentiful but for Bears stick with the 12ga Pump.
I like Brenneke slugs. They perform well and fly straight. The KO slugs are what I use for hunting and home defense.
Maybe even ask a Trooper what they carry in their shotguns for bears.
Yes Sir!! 437 grains of lead at 1600 FPS.
"Yes Sir!! 437 grains of lead at 1600 FPS."
Brenneke has a newer Magnum Slug out. I never used it but its called the Black Magnum and its a 3" mag slug with a 600 and change grain hardened lead slug at 1500 fps.
That is crazy powerful.
I think if I wanted a dedicated bear gun it would be one of the following; A Winchester M71 converted to 450 Alaskan, A Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 with handloads loaded hot and with heavy bullets or a Benelli SBE with a cut down barrel(20") and loaded with Brenneke magnum slugs.
All of the above with maybe the M71(Heavy) as an exception are easy to carry and would do a good job on a bear. I think the Benelli would probably be my #1 choice.
I had a Gunsmith buddy named Rich McCann who Turned an M1 Garand into a semi auto in 458 Win Mag. I think it held 4 or 5 rounds. That would do the job with soft points in it.
Bottomline is you need something with power and penetration, plus the ability to break an animal down that is charging you at close range.