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Another Electrical Question
Ambrose
Member Posts: 3,225 ✭✭✭✭
I was changing a kitchen outlet and I had turned off the wrong breaker. The outlet was "down-stream" from the GFCI. I had disconnected the black wires by backing the screws all the way out with a plastic framed battery operated screw driver. So far; so good! But when I re-positioned the outlet to get at the neutral screws, a black wire bumped the outlets frame and I got a pretty good flash and a nice pop. But it didn't get me, and now the RIGHT breaker is tripped! My question: Shouldn't the GFCI have tripped? It didn't.
Comments
first thing i would do is verify that the gfci actually controls that particular outlet. if it does then the gfci is possibly defective.
First thing to do is to put a tester on the outlet to see if it is hot. ( only took me 1 time after someone said the power was off ). No trust in Electricity.
What most likely happened is the the hot wire (not controlled by the GFIC) touched the metal of the outlet (which is still grounded) hence the spark.
To save your life, spend the $15 to buy a non- contact power detector.
Margaret Thatcher
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
Mark Twain
These are a must when working around outlets and electricity.
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Several possibilities. The GFCI might not be upstream of that outlet. Or it might be defective. Or it might be wired wrong - I see this a lot, more than you'd think. The incoming wires are to be hooked to the "line" labelled screws. The wires to the downstream outlets get hooked to the "load" labelled screws. Too many times I find the incoming and outgoing wires spliced together in the rear of the box with additional wires from that splice going to the GFCI receptacle. Or both hots and both neutrals under the same screws on the line side of that GFCI. No downstream protection at all.
Yes, something is definitely not right, a hot wire arching to a grounded outlet frame is a definite fault to ground. I.e. current traveling out the hot but not back via the neutral.
Even if a GFI is wired correctly they are not to be trusted!
I remember distinctly some 38-39 years ago, when and experienced electrician was teaching a young electrical engineer about GFI. The electrician’s crew had replaced a non-protected outlet near a plating tank with GFI, to be safer per the engineer’s instructions. The electrician called the engineer down to the plating area and said it’s not likely going to make a difference. Then proceeded to pull a stripped wire out of his pocket and put it in the hot side of the outlet and put his other hand in the plating tank. He said, I can feel the 120, but I’m not tripping the GFI. I almost crapped my khakis, but never forgot it.
GFCI should have tripped
Have a qualified electrician check things out, preferably one that primarily does heavy commercial or industrial work.
Always use a quality Volt/Ohm meter to check voltage before you start any electrical work.
Yes, call me overly cautious but I even verify the meter is working, by checking something that should be hot before I check something that I expect should be off before I touch the wires.
While the older electrician I referred to above was ok to take 120 across himself and could check 208 and 240 across one hand, he didn’t do above that. Very good electrician by the way, lived until he was in his 90’s.
FYI, "hot sticks" as they're called, aka a no contact tester, are banned on a lot of the job sites I work on. A much better tool, is a simple multi meter.
Good luck in your endeavors to find the problem.
On that GFCI outlet - is there a short little wire running to from ground to neutral? Are there 2 (Hot and return) , or 3(Hot, neutral, ground) wires ran to the outlet?
Ahh 110V will just give you a little tickle to remind you its live. I work in a hospital, where 277V lights and 480V 3 phase is prominent. Because of the environment have to wire things hot many times. 277V will definitely wake your * up!!!
But no matter what, always remember to not use both hands at the same time. Even 110V at a high amperage can render you dead if it passes through your heart.
Now on a lighter note, want to show off to your friends? Grab a hot 110v wire with your fingers and touch the electrodes on a fluorescent bulb and you will light it up and not feel a thing, as long as you are not grounded in any way of course. 😁
I believe I've answered my own question: To be clear, the outlet I was working on was not a GFCI; it was "downstream" from the GFCI. I had turned off the wrong breaker so I was working on a hot outlet. When I got the hot wires off, they made contact with neutral causing a dead short and the breaker tripped. At that point, the circuit was dead so of course the GFCI didn't trip. I made multiple mistakes: I didn't double check the breaker (they're all labeled); I didn't use a tester to check to be sure the current was off--I was lucky. I've done a good bit of home wiring before and I was too casual. There's nothing wrong with my system--it's the operator!