Opinions on match grade 1911s?
Nanuq907
Member Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭✭
I've got the bug for a Colt 1911 .45 and I'm trying to educate myself. Reading tonight I see the schools of thought are toward Government 1911A1s, meaning issued pieces, where originality is all important. Or else we go down the Match Grade path. That's the direction I want to go because I intend to USE the thing. If I understand it right, the really good ones are pre-1970 National Match, followed by 70 Series Gold Cup National Match.
I'm truly new to these, I've been a wheel gun man (Pythons and Anacondas) and want to expand my horizons. So since I'm surrounded by centuries of experience, what do YOU think about 1911 Match models? Love em, hate em, what do you know and what should I avoid? What is the BEST Match grade 1911 after the pre-70s National Match? Or am I completely down a rat hole here embarrassing myself?
What do you think? Let the battles begin!
Comments
Thanks FM, I intend to put the 1911 into the rotation. When I go shooting and playing with my kids and son in law, I want to put a whole bunch of .45 rounds through it, same as the .357 and .44 rounds going through the wheel guns. Are we blowing up rocks on the river edge? Seeing who can hit the knot on the tree on the other side of the river? Punching paper at the range? Hiking for miles in the snow and woods carrying a heavy lump of steel? Wishing I could swap in 7 or 8 more rounds a lot quicker than the speed loaders will replenish my Python? Carrying the thing just a little more concealed on my waist than the big ole shoulder holster with my bright stainless wheel gun?
Bottom line, it's a toy/tool and it's not going to live in a safe protected from nicks and scratches and snow.
My knowledge is old. I haven't shot a comp gun in 35 years and I will readily concede Forgemonkey knows WAY more than I know. But I have knowledge of how to do things on the cheap, which may or may not be of concern to you.
Once I had a wonderfully accurate series 70. I spent a lot of money on modifications. Clark barrel, Bo-mar ? sights, trigger job and lots of extras that cost me a lot of money. It shot way better than I could shoot. Got stupid and sold it since I prefer revolvers. I went 30 years without a 1911 except for a GSG 22 I bought 4 or 5 years ago.
A couple of years ago I, before things went nuts, I bought a Rock Island 1911 at a really good price right here on GB. The price impressed me so much I figured it would just be an OK shooter justifying its cheap price. When I picked it up I was very pleasantly surprised by how nice it looked and how tight it was, no slop or play in the slide at all. It was tight enough I figured it would be a Jam-O-Matic for several hundred rounds until it loosened up. So out to my plinking spot I go. Imagine my surprise when it was placing every shot right where I was aiming with not one jam of any kind in several hundred rounds in several plinking sessions. I really love that Rock Island. It does all you can ask for, it is accurate and reliable and priced WAY, WAY below what a series 70 would have cost me. Since I tend to be thrifty (cheap😁) that part means a lot to me!! But maybe right now there aren't any deals out there, maybe when/if things return to normal you might check out the Rock Island.
I agree a Series 70 would do what you want it to. I would probably replace the collet bushing but I have found they work fine until they break.
I bought a Ruger Night watchman 1911. It is an all steel commander sized gun. I shot it against my Series 70 and 80 Colt 1911's and it shot as good or better and came with more options. It has nice night sights, beavertail grip safety and extended thumb safety all thing I like. The trigger is nice too.
You may want to look at one. I like the commander size gun. It still big and kind of heavy but it seems to point better for me.
" you might check out the Rock Island."...........AS ABOVE, I've had several 1911's/gold cups and all shot well. I bought a r.i. 'commander' style one a few years ago and I really like it...........it's not a Colt, but dam close for the $$$. the Taurus 1911 isn't bad either if you can fine one 'reasonable'.
Ruger makes a very good 1911.Most all of the upgrades that you would want are already on the factory gun.
I have a Colt Series 70 with with a fitted bushing, grip/frame stipling and really nice adjustable sites. It is very accurate. I don't shoot competition with it but I do practice trick shots and just plink with it.
Kimber...best out of the box 45...IMHO...
Combat Vet VN
D.A.V Life Member
Wow lots of great replies. Lots to consider. Thanks everyone for the opinions!
just in Rural King yesterday, large feed , chinese junk store, the do have a gun department though, and had rock islands in the case $449 thought that wasn't to bad in todays inflated covid situation........ guy at counter was doing paperwork on 3 rifles for a guy, 3 other guys in line to purchase rifle/pistols, only few boxes of ammo and they had it in the pistol case instead of out on shelf, had maybe 15-20 long guns on rack and maybe 20+ pistols in case most glock type plastic squared off pistols, didn't really pay lot of attention to other prices, the rock island was on the end and just happened to see tag on it...
I bought a MADORE built wad cutter gun from Perry Shooter. It is an amazing tack driver, 10 shots into 1-1/4" at 50 yards. Operating the slide feels like two pieces of oiled metal sliding on each other. The trigger breaks like a glass rod.
If you search for a used bullseye gun on the auction side you might get lucky and find a real shooter for a price that is a lot less than a custom built gun.
Cough (glock21) cough, cough...
Hey, somebody had to do it!
I have a few 1911’s. The Ruger SR1911 gets shot way more than the others.
See if you can find one of these. Properly tuned, it will run rings around a commercial Gold Cup (in the right hands of course)
The National Match 'rebuilds' are a class to themselves. Plenty to learn. I'm a fan of the 1966, 67, 68 variants. (my dad bought his 1966NM at Camp Perry and I was a tag-a-long @ age 8. Still have that beauty.)
COLT / REMINGTON RAND 1911A1 MILITARY NATIONAL MATCH 45ACP SEMI AUTO PISTOL - Curios & Relics at GunBroker.com : 891089932
The “National Match” M1911 Pistols » Sight M1911
Arsenal Rebuilds » Sight M1911
National Match Notes (coolgunsite.com)
Welcome to www.CoolGunSite.com the USGI small arms and Model 1911 resource site (click on 1911 gallery for images)
This is what the night watchman looks like. I paid $735 for mine in a gun shop not far from my home. This was maybe 2 to 3 years ago. Now it has elk horn grips and looks kind of like Longmire's gun in the TV show.
If you like glock Ricci will have a G30 up for sale soon. I really like my G30 they are great shooting guns.
But for a 1911 I really like the Ruger and its going to be easier on the wallet than a Colt plus it will shoot right along with one all day long.
Wow iceracerx those links are full of good info. I really like the auction item 891089932 you linked, but does it hurt the historical value to have a Remington Rand slide? Wouldn't it be worth more with the NATIONAL MATCH slide? Or do those details matter much?
I collect old watches so I know how some upgrades will make a watch "better" but also ruin its historical value. Same here?
Another vote for Kimber. I have a SS Commander engraved I carry all the time.
Margaret Thatcher
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
Mark Twain
I wouldn't waste a lot of money on what you're looking for. Buy a decent, basic pistol, shoot it, play with swapping out parts & shoot it some more. You'll have as much fun researching & working on it as shooting it. (The only up front option would be adj. sights.) In the end you'll gain experience & knowledge and have a personal 1911.
I also recommend Rock Island.......I have a standard an have been really pleased with it for the $$$
Maybe find a used Dan Wesson
Buy a good solid middle of the road 1911 use the extra to customize and buy ammo
I also have a Ruger SR1911 Night Watchman, but mine is the light weight version. I carry it every day, everywhere. It is 100% reliable and very accurate. When I bought it, I figured it was the best bang for the buck, just shy of $800, new wholesale from a distributor.
And it has no '80 Series style passive firing pin safety, a modification that I abhor. Ruger solved the "drop problem" by making the firing pin out of lightweight titanium. Wow. How simple. Why couldn't Colt, Kimber, et al, do the same?
Another good thing about the Ruger SR1911 night watchman is it is Stainless Steel under the black nitride finish. I have the all steel gun and I like it. I don't carry it everyday but I do carry it sometimes. I normally carry a G32 or a USP 45. so my CC guns are large. For what you want to do either a LW or all steel gun would work fine.
Mine has a really good trigger from the factory and it has all the mods I want. I don't like forward cocking serrations on a pistol I think they look stupid. I don't need an ambi safety, I am right handed and if I have to use my left hand to shoot I can figure out how to take the safety off. I like the larger night sights vers the small sights that come on a Colt.
And as Nunn stated no stupid series 80 garbage to jack up the trigger pull.
Here is one going cheap
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/891484303
Nanuq907, some of the early National Match rebuilds had 'service' slides (that I suspect were brand new and then tuned to the frame, which I also suspect were brand new/never issued). Later, there were National Match slides made by Colt, Drake and other suppliers. These pistols were being improved every year.
Check out this 1961example - 'Service' slide
Welcome to www.CoolGunSite.com the USGI small arms and Model 1911 resource site
(you might have to select 1911 Gallery, then scroll down until you find "1961 SA National Match .45 M1911A1 Service Model".
'Drake' slide examples were only issued/sold in 1964. Colt NM slides are found on pistols from several years. Early examples had vertical slide serrations, while the later examples had slanted serrations (my favorite slide - as 'issued' in 1966)
There's a book on the National Match pistols (22, 38 AMU and 1911s) that Perryshooter suggested I buy. It's a great read.
9781931464185: US Military Match and Marksmanship Automatic Pistols - AbeBooks - Bill Jenkins: 1931464189
Another plug for the Ruger, snagged one after they were introduced. The only thing I have done is replace the rear sight.
Shoots almost as good as my Colt GC at half the cost.
Rugers also come with an extra magazine.
I think I found the one I like, it's not purty but it sure sounds like a shooter! Match barrel and parts here and there, certainly far more accurate than me. Since it's not gorgeous, I can learn to use the thing without worrying about a scratch. Fingers crossed!
They're addictive.
Next, you'll want a Gold Cup National Match in 38 super...
Well? What have you decided?
It came down to a sweet Buy It Now and a 1944 Government Property 1911A1 National Match that went through Springfield Armory. It wears a NM barrel, trigger and bushing, a Remington slide and the barrel is stamped with the frame number. I think it's a winner. Should be here Monday!
You won't go wrong with the Rock Island.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
Ahhh, I'm late to the party. Well. I think you did well.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
Nice! Have fun!
Just a slight correction (or Karl will be spinning in his grave) but SA is Springfield ARSENAL where the National Match pistols were rebuilt until 1968 when the operation was transferred to Rock Island ARSENAL. Springfield Armory is those 'other' guys.
Which one did you buy? The barrel, slide and barrel bushing should all be numbered to the frame. If you are real lucky, it came with the two original issued (and tuned) magazines that were also numbered to the frame.
Springfield Arsenal ... of course you’re right, I’m still on the steep part of the learning curve.
Nice! Now we need to find out if it's a Remington Rand (common), a Colt (not so common) or something else. Are you planning on posting pictures?
Is the slide numbered to the frame just below the ejection port? If not, it might be numbered with the last 4 of the frame number (serial number) behind the Firing Pin Stop Plate. And the frame should be stamped NM on the forward, right side of the trigger guard. The barrel bushing should have the last 4 digits of the frame number scrawled with an electric pencil (crude at best).
Cool
Here are some photos, I hope I got what I think I got! It sold as a "Ser# 1611579, Colt frame with a Remington Rand slide. U.S. National Match 1911A1 semi auto pistol. SA Springfield Armory marked. NM trigger, NM barrel with a bright bore, barrel bushing marked NM. Micro rear adjustable rear sight." I like the fact it has real sights, instead of the screwy little nubbins that are impossible to see. The rest looks pretty solid to my uneducated eye. Serial number dates it to 1944.
That is a very beautiful and sexy piece of workmanship!
Congratulations!
It sure looks like a genuine article to me. Colt frame and 'service' (Remington Rand) slide. Short NM trigger (looks like someone added a trigger shoe at one time - it was a popular mod). The Micro rear sight suggests this is a 1962 issue of which 172 were sold at the National Matches by the DCM (for around $85 if you took the small arms school and shot in the matches). Where the other 2,853 pistols produced went is anyone's guess.
I'd say you did well. Now we need a range report. My 1966 example is a first round center X shooter. After that, it's anyone's guess.
Did you get the issued magazines?
Doesn’t look like I got the magazine, the one with the gun is stamped C-S ??
Thanks for the detailed history of this pea shooter!