Colt 1911A1 NM parts
Nanuq907
Member Posts: 2,552 ✭✭✭✭
Hi gents, I'm new here though I've been hanging around General Discussion for a few months. I've recently caught a bug for a Colt 1911A1 Government National Match 45 ACP. I'm reading everything I can get my hands on, and a couple questions rose up.
I see NM barrels and parts for sale so I could apparently buy my own garden variety Government 1911A1 and put these parts on, to make my very own "NM" pistol. I see on many of these there are serial numbers engraved and stamped.
I have dabbled in vintage Rolex long enough to know there are real parts and there are parts that appear real to all but the most educated eye. I'm guessing that's what I'm seeing here? People engraving "Serial numbers" on garden variety parts and pawning them off as genuine NOS NM parts?
I also notice there are parts for sale everywhere with the magic serial number 7791414. They're for sale on ISBauctions, coolgunsite and eBay. I know I'm dumb as Adam's off ox, but shouldn't there be exactly ONE barrel and bushing with that serial number? And the rest are fakes?
I think I caught the 1911 bug, which quickly progressed to 1911A1 Government, then to 1911 Series 70 Gold Cup National Match, and now it's refined to 1911A1 Government Property NM with matching serial numbers. I recognize this is ridiculous... I'm not buying a safe queen, I intend to use it, and it's stupid to spend $7k to $10k on a perfect example of a super collectible gun, and USE the thing.
I've been counseled to instead spend $500 on a Rock Island Armory 45 ACP and shoot it until I'm better than the gun. Then consider building a Match grade gun for myself. But I'll need to know a lot more about serial numbers, fake parts, and what goes together.
Any advice is appreciated! Thank you.
Comments
My advise is worth just as little as anyone else. I have run two indoor shooting ranges and gun shops so have sold, rented, handled a lot of guns. As far as 1911's are concerned, I have owned several guns made by Wilson, Les Baer, and Jim Clark. Twenty years ago I could see well and was a very competitive shooter. I could actually use most of the accuracy a gun could give me. Not bragging, it was a skill God gave me for a while and I enjoyed it. My experience way that most decent 1911 pistols chambered for .45 acp. would shoot quite well. Sure triggers and sights and the way the gun is put together made some difference, but the .45 acp is very accurate in most any pistol I remember shooting. I have had low end Springfields that would shoot 2" five shot groups consistently at 25 yards standing off hand two handed. That is better than most folks can shoot so maybe a better gun would make a difference or maybe not. Rock Island makes a decent gun as I recall. Maybe you want an older Colt. I really enjoyed my Clark guns. They shot well and they were built, the ones I owned, in the 1960's when parts were welded up and then hand fitted. The Wilsons are classy and well built. I was always impressed by Les Baer. You get a gun so tight you can barely rack the slide and you swear it is just too tight to run and it will never miss a lick. I have owned three or four and sold many more and they were all like that. And they will shoot with any other gun out there. Of all the 1911's I have owned, one Baer is the gun I have kept. Well that and one old Colt GM that I got in 1982 I think. Look at Springfield guns. They build guns from low end up to custom shop goodies. And they have been a good company to work with for me. S&W can build a good gun as can Dan Wesson. Anyway I need to get to work. Have fun. Get you some good 200 gr cast swc bullets and a few pounds of 231 or what ever powder is popular these days and have some fun.
just to note; "magic serial number 7791414"..........this isn't a 'serial' number, it's a 'drawing' number. the part was built to the specification on drawing # 7791414. the only parts on most 1911's that are serial numbered are the frame and some times the slide. if you really want to get 'confused', look at the 'drawing' numbers for the m-1 Garand.
Thank you both for your replies, I learned something new today.
I've had 45ACPs before and I couldn't hit the floor from a standing position with them. I've been learning a lot with wheel guns, so here's hoping I'll do better with the next one.
Thanks FM! I guess if it was just a matter of buying NM parts and slapping them together, they'd be everywhere wouldn't they?
Absent any paperwork from Colt, how do you know that you've got the real thing? I suppose it means taking it apart and looking for evidence of a smith hand fitting it together?
I drive a 60s Land Rover, the workshop manual never says to "install" a part, it says to "fit" the part. I'm used to how that's done and what it looks like. Will that translate into a gun, with the same tooling marks and honed / polished surfaces on the internals? I'll recognize them when I see them.
Long ago I decided to jump down that rabbit hole. Our department had a policy of stripping usable parts off of firearms the courts had ordered destroyed. In came a 1957 National Match Gold Cup. I pulled every part off the frame, even the grip bushings, and got the chief's permission to build it on a replacement frame. I ordered an Auto-Ordnance frame from a parts house (I know I should have gone a bit more up-scale - Caspian etc.) and started the project. Fitting the slide to the frame rails so there was minimal clearance while still allowing full function was major. Then came the BIG revelation, the National Match trigger is wider than the slot in the replacement frame. The story goes on and on. Now that beautiful slide and barrel is part of a very reliable and reasonably accurate carry gun and I have a very nice Series 70 that somebody who knew what they were doing built for me for target use.
FWIW, B
Oops, I'm sorry I didn't check back to this discussion sooner. I don't mean to ignore your advice and the time it took to put to words, even though that's exactly what it seems like.
While you were busy writing that I was busy obsessing over a very pretty 1911A1 NM, and ultimately bought it. Again, I don't mean to seem like I ignored you. I come from the world of collecting vintage Rolex and its very weird rules. In the eyes of the experts, there are two kinds of vintage Rolex, absolutely perfect watches, and utter junk. If your watch has the tiniest part that's not provably from the Rolex factory, the connoisseurs will wrinkle their noses against the stench of a FAKE and unless you play your cards just right, you'll be banned from the sandbox. You'll forever wear the Scarlet A on your forehead as a Rolex Adulterer. Build a watch from scratch? Make it functionally identical to a genuine piece, or even better? HERESY! If it didn't originate from an official source, who may have used identical parts, it's still rubbish.
So from that frame of reference I saw "National Match" 1911s and thought there are two kinds: Colt "factory" guns that went through, for example, Springfield Arsenal and were built by approved craftsmen with approved parts, to approved specs. Or, there were home-built guns that might contain the exact same parts, but were utter rubbish to the collectors. The first, you'd never ever shoot... they'd live in a safe deposit box to be spoken of in hushed conversations only at Christmas time. The second, you'd take to the range every weekend and enjoy them.
So to your advice, from my perspective, building my own 1911 might produce something that works well, but it will never be worth anything. But if I can buy a real NM, with provenance, it will be worth something. Then it's up to me if I want to take it to the range and use it. Just like I wear my vintage Rolex, and use them. I know I'll never shoot to the capability of the gun, but it will help me improve and if I take care of it, my kids will enjoy it too some day.
Again, THANK YOU all for your advice! It is sincerely appreciated.
Now then... my NM is here, and I'm on the hunt for a couple magazines. How important is it to have the "real" Colt pieces, vs the subcontracted "C-S" or "C-R" magazines? Will they both work the same?
I can't answer your question directly. Colt hasn't made magazines for any of their guns since some time before WW2. Scovill, Risdon, & Little mags are WW2 military contract mags.
It's not clear what you bought. I think that you are describing a post-war Colt Gold Cup, National Match, or Gold Cup National Match, assembled by the Colt Custom Shop. (Any gun with 1911A1 on it would be military issue.) You will want to know the year your gun was made; the serial number would be needed. I don't know where you can find out what type mag was shipped with your gun.
And, never remove the grip screw bushings on a .45; that would be like using a chisel & mallet to remove the back of a Rolex.
Neal
Buy Wilson Combat, Chip Mc Cormic, mags. I have some Metal Form mags with round followers that are great also. Stay away from Promag.
I have several custom heavily modified 1911's & 2011's and several stock factory guns. They all shoot better than most people can and they all have some characteristics that make some feel better in the hand. In the old days you would buy a 1911 and send it out for custom work like the old 70's Clark custom I have. Now many come straight from the factories with these "custom" improvements already on the guns. You can pretty much buy a 1911 with everything you need already for target/match shooting. Its really up to you if you want to build or buy. The bushing & barrel fit is critical to accuracy and all match guns you find will pay attention to this above most other improvements.
Good luck and happy shooting whatever you decide!