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Refrigerants for all Old Existing Equipment to be banned?

serfserf Member Posts: 9,121 ✭✭✭✭


Better buy them now before they all get Banned!

serf

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/senate-ratifies-international-climate-deal-refrigerants-90285790

WASHINGTON -- In a major action to address climate change, the Senate on Wednesday ratified an international agreement that compels the United States and other countries to limit use of hydrofluorocarbons, highly potent greenhouse gases commonly used in refrigeration and air conditioning that are far more powerful than carbon dioxide.

The so-called Kigali Amendment to the 1987 Montreal Protocol on ozone pollution requires participating nations to phase down production and use of hydrofluorocarbons, also known as HFCs, by 85% over the next 14 years, as part of a global phaseout intended to slow climate change.

The Senate approved the treaty, 69-27, above the two-thirds margin required for ratification.

Comments

  • Butchdog2Butchdog2 Member Posts: 3,363 ✭✭✭✭

    R-12 refrigerant has been of the market for years, but some private stock still floating around.

  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 68,766 ✭✭✭✭

    Feeling safer now... insert green font...

  • mike55mike55 Member Posts: 2,184 ✭✭✭✭

    R-12 is around BUT unaffordable! Simply swap r12 devices over to 134a, no need to spend 100 times more for R12. Other "banned" refrigerants such as R22 are the same way, drop in replacements are available.

    Now I think it is stupid to ban any of em, and no.....r134a does NOT work as good as R12. It does serve the purpose, but there was NO need to ban R12 in the first place, much less R22!

  • serfserf Member Posts: 9,121 ✭✭✭✭

    All HFC 's have to go so it's going to be interesting what kind of chemical bonding agent will fill in for replacement.CFC and HCFC are already banned.

    serf

  • BrookwoodBrookwood Member, Moderator Posts: 11,087 ******

    Sounds like we are quickly headed into another ICE AGE! Blocks or cubes!

  • MobuckMobuck Member Posts: 12,878 ✭✭✭✭

    Better stock up on RedTek??

  • serfserf Member Posts: 9,121 ✭✭✭✭

    Better watch out on this one.They want to cut back on a/c cooling in the southern states .In the Philippines there is much less air conditioning in stores and other areas and it will be like that here soon. Just watch, America is heading into a third world existence soon.

    With illegals aliens coming in by the millions now it just going to get much much worst.

    serf

  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,038 ✭✭✭✭

    When the grid collapses you won't need any refrigerant, you will need a ice box where the ice man brings 50 pounds of ice in a horse drawn buggy.

  • mike55mike55 Member Posts: 2,184 ✭✭✭✭

    When the grid collapses...... More than HALF of people in north America will be dead in a year. TOO hot down south, too cold north and Midwest. 90% of people do NOT know how to hunt gather, forage, or grow crops. Those that do, won't have enough ammo, weapons, land, or seed. No one will have drinkable water. Big cities will be the worst places in earth. And that does not account for the PEOPLE. People will be the worst and deadliest part of a national power loss or similar situation. Heck, you can buy ANYTHING you want NOW and people murder and steal everyday!

    So, freon will be a non issue.

    Just sayin'

  • serfserf Member Posts: 9,121 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22

    If the grid goes down it will because the government did not cut out enough use of electricity and making old equipment non usable after all the HFC's are banned. There will be no drop in substitutes for them like with CFCs & HCFCs.

    All hydrocarbons are evil now and Having super cooled air-conditioning will be a thing of the past here in The USA.It's a good excuse to blame these gases and demonize them to further the Agenda of The New green deal.

    Maybe a desiccant dehumidifier with no compressor will be all you can get and afford legally. Hell,N.G. is going up 20% higher here this winter and Europe is set for much higher prices than that.. Operating rooms may be an exception with a few other restricted use of A/C. in critical areas only.

    serf

  • mike55mike55 Member Posts: 2,184 ✭✭✭✭

    As long as I have electricity (or fuel for generators) I WILL HAVE AC! You cannot survive here without AC. The commie idiots that push us to lower AC use do NOT even have ACs in their home, mild to cold climates where those idiots live!

  • BobJudyBobJudy Member Posts: 5,235 ✭✭✭✭

    Those folks in low humidity areas can always go back to using swamp coolers - no refrigerant needed. Those in high humidity areas can shift over to an Ammonia based system. They sure will have it easy discovering any coolant leak. Bob

  • serfserf Member Posts: 9,121 ✭✭✭✭

    I worked around those ammonia refrigeration units,They have to wear a gas mask if there is a leak. Bad idea to use them in directly with air exchange and firemen don't like them very much when fighting a fire.

    serf

    Hyperammonemia provokes irreversible damage to the developing central nervous system: cortical atrophy, ventricular enlargement and demyelination lead to cognitive impairment, seizures and cerebral palsy.

  • BobJudyBobJudy Member Posts: 5,235 ✭✭✭✭

    The typical home central air conditioner wouldn't have a massive amount of ammonia and if used as part of a chilled water system all of the ammonia would be outside of the dwelling. Using the ammonia to cool a fluid in a closed loop that runs through the heat exchanger for the inside air. Those that have more expertise in the matter than I do also claim ammonia units are 5 - 10% more efficient than CFC units so use less energy. Bob

  • serfserf Member Posts: 9,121 ✭✭✭✭

    I agree but more pumps,fans and heat exchanges add to the costs plus very expensive to repair. Plus ammonia is not allowed in residential installs with unless much more technical issues. I don't think water in a close loop is a refrigerant.I doubt you will see them in residential units at all.


    serf

    https://www.contractingbusiness.com/refrigeration/article/20867582/ammonias-in-the-air


    Currently, American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air-Conditioning Engineers (ASHRAE) Standard 15 (Safety Standard for Refrigeration Systems and Designation and Classification of Refrigerants) does not allow the use of ammonia in many typical commercial applications or residential units where there is only a single wall between the air and the ammonia itself,

    The idea with critical charge is to get yourself down to as small a charge as possible and use secondary refrigerants as much as possible, keep the ammonia back in the engine room where you have ventilation, sprinkler systems, refrigerant detectors and safety systems in place,” he said. “There’s reduced chance of any interaction between ammonia that might be escaping from the system and the general public, occupants of the building and those working there.”

  • BobJudyBobJudy Member Posts: 5,235 ✭✭✭✭

    You misunderstand the closed loop. The liquid, usually water with antifreeze, runs through the outside unit where it is cooled and then that water is pumped through the heat exchanger inside the dwelling. This would be the same as the evaporator coils that you have now. The inside air blown through those coils is cooled, thus cooling the dwelling. The now warmer water continuously circulates back outside to the unit where it is cooled and sent back inside to absorb more heat, and so on.

    Remember, air conditioning works by removing heat from inside to the outside. In a normal system the expansion of the refrigerant from a liquid to a gas in the evaporator absorbs the heat and the gas then returns to the compressor and condenser to be changed back to a liquid and have the heat removed. The ammonia system just adds the closed loop of liquid to move that heat to the outside.

    Using ammonia in your window unit or refrigerator and freezer compressors would not work because any leak would be in your living space. Bob

  • serfserf Member Posts: 9,121 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 23

    You can't use it with an outside condenser in a residential's house yard with ammonia which is a non starter to replace a heat pump with normal HFC gases that both heats and cools with a seer up to 37. Ammonia systems are for commercial use only Bob. The U.S. Senate just made cheap A/C heating a thing of the past starting as soon as the stockpile of refrigerants runs out! No Substitutes will be available for replacement.It will be illegal to even try!

    The government does not care about low cost efficient A/c and heating units any more! period. The new green deal is going to make us the middle class people all poor,just watch! Bob you need to admit they are really giving us the shaft here. Smoke and mirrors is not going to work with me.

    serf

  • BobJudyBobJudy Member Posts: 5,235 ✭✭✭✭

    Here is some information on replacements for HFC refrigerants. Down near the bottom of the article it lists some alternatives, natural products would include ammonia but they do list others. I found this on a greenie weenie site so I could get a better idea about what they actually propose instead of jumping to the conclusion that the sky is falling. Understanding is better than jumping to conclusions and living in fear, don't cha think? Bob

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