A hunting thing I do not understand
bpost
Member Posts: 32,664 ✭✭✭✭
And never will. I have killed a lot of game, Moose, Caribou, and deer are on the big game side. I have never understood the concern with muzzle Velocity and Energy. or the claim the 30-30 is underpowered and the latest wiz-bang-go-fast round is the be all end all for hunters. If the game is within the reasonable drop zone of the caliber you are shooting then it is fine. I think 12 to 18" of drop is about maximum to consider for average shooters at known distances in normal hunting environments.
A deer, moose, sheep, antelope, caribou or other game animal shot through the heart/lung area is going to die rather quickly as the blood pressure to the brain drops. It may run a bit but is already dead. Using a trusty 243, 30-30, 308, 30-06, 6MM go fast, 7MM big boom, or any other caliber is going to result in the same end. Shoot the critter through the rib cage into the vitals and it can not survive.
To drop an animal DRT requires a nervous system hit and that can be a tough shot for most rifle shooters that hitting a pie plate at 100 yards two out of three shots off of a bench is the best they can do. Unless you are a practiced, proficient rifle shooter going several football fields with the latest go-fast cartridge results in wounded game or a miss. I know hunters that have had the same box of ammo for FIVE YEARS and have not shot it all up.
I never shot big game that cared the about the MV of the round or its energy numbers, it mattered naught in the end.
Comments
I think some of the reasoning revolves around the ethical. Since animals move, there is the possibility they will move such that their bones enter the path/trajectory toward the vitals. Modern bullet construction helps with penetration through bone, and mv/energy does the rest. The fact is, much of the older calibers also have a lot of bad bullet construction history and have a poor track record of penetration through bone and hide into the vitals.
As a hunter, I appreciate having tools that help with a clean kill. That said, you really don't need much more than good bullet construction to penetrate deer bones even with 30/30. It's when you step up to animals that have denser bones like hogs, bears, and elk that you probably also want a little more oomph to the mix.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
To a great extent, I agree with your statements. However, a lot of folks need to prove something by having bigger faster cartridges. On larger animals a 300 mag does make up a little for poor or unlucky shot placement. Most hunters don't practice enough to truly be proficient with their firearm and that extra oomph may make a difference.
Shot placement is everything. How many elephants did Bell kill with a 7X57 Mauser? Patty, the wife of my rancher buddy in Montana, killed a massive bull elk with a 257 Roberts. My father, who was an excellent shot, took numerous whitetail, mule deer and antelope with his favorite model 99 in 250 Savage. His back up was a Winchester 94 in 32 special. He warned me about not using hollow points in the 32 because they wasted way to much meat.
My favorite deer cartridge over the years has been the 7X57. My first one was a Ruger 77 I bought in1976. It has never failed me and I have never felt under gunned. Granted, I do load it with heavier loads than the old military stuff. There isn't much a 140 grain bullet at 2800 fps won't kill quickly with proper placement. So, yeah I've got a few magnums but they really aren't my go to guns. Bob
Physics is an interesting subject and to study it through the mechanics of a firearm can make it an enjoyable interest or hobby. Now that being said I know what worked for me in the past and stick with that. Good shot placement is what puts the meat on the table.
Here is a bullet kinetic calculator .. dial up your bullet .. and the rest of the guide and see what kind of damage it can do. Actually the trajectory chart at the top will tell you what kind of energy the bullet has at what range.
https://shooterscalculator.com/bullet-kinetic-energy.php
BP is correct. Shot placement and knowing your game and the rifle you are using are the most important things in hunting.
Well of course, and that is exactly what led to more powerful cartridges. People simply wanted to do more than some of the available cartridges could do.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
90% where you shoot them,10% what you shoot them with.
Being very familiar with your gun and what it can do takes practice. An old geezer with a decades old lever gun he has hunted with for years, is at no disadvantage to someone with a safe or two of the latest whiz-bang sales-pitch specials. In fact, I'd often bet on the geezer.
People buy into the marketing hype. Heck I still shoot a 16 gauge for all my shotgun needs. Not really one to follow the crowd.
Although a new caliber is a great excuse to get a new gun.
My biggest concern when hunting (besides safety) is to make the kill in the most ethical and humane manor possible. I do not hunt for deer with a .223/5.56 even though I know it will do the job. I generally hunt with a .308 as I know what the round and rifle are capable of in a hunting situation. It is also a round I can fire and quickly get back on target if I miss or need a follow up shot. It does not beat me up or make me flinch....AND I do shoot a couple boxes of ammo though it each year to make sure it is on target and to check myself out at distances between 25 and 300 yards.
I have shot many different calibers over the years but keep coming back to the old standby.....
Beware of the man that has only one hunting gun and hunts a lot.
Most likely a deadly shot.
Butchdog beat me to it . My son in law is constantly buying this or that " latest and greatest " gun/ caliber combination . Thank you but I will stick to my Savage 99 ,which I bought in 1980 or my Savage 110 . 308 and 30-06 do everything I need .
There are way too many side issues to just say what is good enough and nothing more is needed.
Many hunters are on limited areas and can't just stick a bullet in an animal and then follow it until it dies.
I hunt mostly large private farms but still not an unlimited area and sometimes I hunt with my back to the perimeter fences.
While I do understand that too many hunters try to shoot more gun than they can handle, I personally often use 'more gun' than is required especially when I have a buck or bull tag to fill. I plan to kill the chosen animal from any angle that's presented rather than have to pass a chance due to a snobbish choice of caliber.
Since I've quit trying to draw bull elk tags, my choice of caliber for cow elk has shifted to the 25/06 and being more choosy about the shot angle. The 6.5 Creedmoor has become a favorite deer round due to it's light recoil, precise accuracy, and terminal performance. Both of these are a big step back from my choices of 20 years back (7mm Rem mag and 30/06).
If only .30-30 was on offer, we all have one, end of sales. Like most things it is about money. Though I do admit to a weakness for the latest whizz-bang hand guns. I even have a couple that are double action.
It's simple physics, the faster a bullet goes, the less drop/drift it has, thus making it more accurate and retaining more energy at longer distances. You bring the correct tool for the job. You wouldn't use a hammer to remove a screw, and you don't need a 300 Weatherby to hunt a brushy bottom for deer.
You mention that a person needs to be proficient with their firearm, and I agree 100%. But that doesn't mean that a person can't be proficient with a long range gun and know how to use it at longer distances. As for the guy with one gun who knows how to use it, sure, I'll take on 'ol farmer Joe and his Savage 99 in 300 Savage against myself, and any of my longer range guns. I'll give him 3 shots to my one starting at 600 yards or so, and go out from there.
From more than a few decades ago.......I recall a listing of needed energy.
From.......Texas whitetail requiring 800 ft-lbs.......to big mule deer needing 1200 ft-lbs......to elk requiring 2000 ft-lbs.......AT THE ANIMAL.....for reliable knock-down.
Always seemed pretty reasonable to me.
Perhaps the info source was O'Connor or Keith.....
Hmmmmm.........I do recall Elmer stating that the 270 Win. was great for jackrabbits. 😉
I shot several moose with a 30-06 using "Mexican Match" ammo. I pulled the 174 grain match bullet off Government 06 match ammo and seated a Speer 180 grain spire point. It was not a hot load but the moose and caribou did not care, they died. When I went to the .338 Win mag it did seem to hit a lot harder but dead is dead.
I agree with what you folks say about range, recoil, energy and MV. We should add "reading the wind" to the list. I just don't understand the guy that buys the latest go-fast knock em' flat at 900 yards rifle and a single box of ammo for sight in and hunting. I wonder how many animals are out there gut shot and lost when blasted at by these super guns, shot by a guy that can barely hit the pie plate...
If you are shooting long range, 500-600 yds or further something like the 6.5PRC or 28 Nosler are excellent choices along with others, something a 30--30 or 35 Rem is not designed for. But I would not carry that 28 Nosler in a bushy area where my shots were 100 yds or less and I may need a short, quick handling rifle. Most deer are taken at far closer ranges. Longer shots generally seem to be more prominent in the western US. In the eastern US shots tend to be 100-150 yds or less. I have taken 64 deer, 53 bucks and 11 doe, with everything from a 300 RUM to a .243 with no shots over 250 yds. I like rifles. I have several in different calibers but I have come to the realization that something in the 308, '06, 270 can do most anything that needs to be done by the average hunter and the old cup and core bullets do a fantastic job when placed in the right spot. No real need for a premium bullet on a deer. Lately I have been using the 7x57, 6x55 Swede and a 300 Savage. I personally think the 7mm-08 is about the perfect deer cartridge. Rifle caliber discussions are great and I could talk all day about them. Match your rifle and caliber to the type of hunting you do and practice and be proficient with them. Every one has a favorite caliber and so do I. Just my thoughts.
I shoot a custom 243 with 80 grain ballistic tips, every deer I have shot is DRT, neck shots, 100 to 250 yards.
Vermin don't far well either.
Next up is a custom 6 x 284 with a 115 Berger VLD, deer DRT out to 650.
First center fire I ever owned was a Mdl 700 BDL 7mm mag, given to me by my Dad in '68 for cleaning out the barn. I shot factory 150 grain Remington corelok and did the job well, since I went to hand loading it is fed 150 grain Partitions. I use it for both a brush and field gun and about as far as I have take game with it is 250+- yards. Most shots with it was in the boiler room. Shot one and it ran 100 yards up hill and then fell dead, opened the critter up and the bottom half of it's heart was gone. Shot placement is critical but some critters just won't give up easily.
Step up to a 7mm STW, with 175 Bergers. The Elk and mule deer it has taken dropped in their tracks.
The neighbors know when I am shooting this one.
LIke a big block Chevy, no replacement for displacement.