What Would You Do? UPDATE!!! ALL IS WELL!!! (I think, maybe)
nunn
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Another problematic sale. An inexpensive rifle, and the buyer claims there is no bolt with it.
I remember packing this rifle. It's a single shot .22, easy to separate stock from action, so I did to ship it in a smaller package. Wrapped action and stock together with heavy duty bubble wrap. Wrapped bolt same and taped all together and put it all in a box and shipped it.
i got a phone call from the buyer. Said there is no bolt. I told him to re-examine the packing material. He said he would and that was that. I didn't hear anything from him for a few days, so I figured he found the bolt.
Then, I got a phone call from the dealer. Said there is no bolt. I told him same as I told the buyer. He said he thoroughly examined all the packing and there is no bolt. I asked whether he were the one to unpack it. No. It was an employee. I reiterated that I did ship the bolt with the gun. Dealer reiterated that he has no bolt and further stated that the buyer isn't happy.
I told dealer that he can ship the rifle back if the buyer wants to return it. He said he would speak with the buyer about it.
I haven't heard anything further. Acknowledging that I can be mistaken, I searched my office where I packed this gun for shipping. There is no bolt.
So, now I am 100% certain that I sent a complete rifle. The buyer and receiving dealer seem to be just as certain that the rifle came with no bolt. I can't see any way this will end well.
We are talking about a $125 rifle here, so it isn't the end of the world, but just the same, what would you do?
If it is returned, sans bolt as reported, would you refund the purchase price, refund the purchase price minus the cost of replacing the bolt, or refund the purchase price, shipping cost, taxes and fees?
I know I can get a credit for the taxes and fees from Gunbroker, so at most I'll be out $175 and I'll have a bolt-less rifle to show for it. Again, not an earth-shaking deal, but a deal worthy of consideration.
Thanks!
Comments
what would you want if you recieved a rifle with no bolt???? not that you didn't send it, just a what if..........
I'd want a refund, but I DID SEND IT.
The buyer did not unpack it. The FFL did not unpack it. Some employee unpacked it.
Did the employee just happen to need a bolt like that? Did the employee inadvertently toss the bubble wrap containing the bolt?
I remember a time when I unpacked a large box full of guns and miscellaneous accessories, each piece wrapped in newspaper. When all was said and done, there were two pistol magazines missing. There was not a packing list, but the sender, an honest man, insisted he sent them. The only explanation is that I threw them out. So I got to eat the magazines.
My thinking on this rifle is that I will refund the purchase price, taxes, and fees, and get the tax and fees back from Gunbroker.
If it had a bolt in the pictures & the guy doesn't have a bolt with his rifle, right or wrong, I would probably try to do right by the buyer, if the buyer is cordial.
Chalk it up to the cost of doing business.
& the corrective action going forward would be photos of packaging in situations like this.
I understand you aggrevation, and no doubt it was the recievers fault, have you checked what a used bolt might cost, would make selling it easier next time. As warbirds has said a final picture of the packed rifle kept on file might help next time. If I recall I think Kasey went through this just a short time back..... you may offer to send him a replacement bolt if they aren't to much used
Just like the old trick where the extra magazine disappears as well as a factory box when you buy or pick up a gun. Someone needed a bolt and trying to make YOU pay for it.
Bolt probably got tossed with the packing. Cheapest way out may be to find a bolt.??
What I would do in the future, and this is only a suggestion. Just before packaging take a picture of gun and all parts together, and then a picture of gun in shipping box before taping. Then if there is any dispute you can text them the pictures of the gun being wrapped.
More than likely they lost the bolt and are trying to get you to take the loss.
Warbird has it. I would just purchase another bolt and send it to him. Who knows what happened to the bolt, but it is missing. Good business to satisfy the customer, even if you have to take a small loss. I have had to do that several times. Life goes on. In the future, I would snap a picture of everything you ship, before closing the lid to the box. This way you have proof. JMHO.
I feel the bolt was mistakenly tossed out in the packaging by the employee. The packaging is since gone.
I would do a refund.
Unpacking items people get the mindset of the size of the overall item. They do not think in terms of smaller, individual parts.
I would make up, print out a notice to tape the final packaging stating small parts contained within, unpack & examine packaging with care.
Rifle was $125. Replacement bolt assembly is $226. Do the math.
And I get the picture idea. Trouble is, I'd have to take the picture before I wrap, and there is plenty of opportunity for me to forget to put something in the box after it's wrapped.
Bite the bullet and give him a total refund including shipping, that's what you would expect if the shoe were on the other foot.
Unfortunately someone has to loose here and I can't help but think that it shouldn't be the buyer as he is in absolutely no way responsible for any of this debacle . As previously stated, it's sometimes the cost of doing business.
The frustration of fighting and letting it rattle around in your head is costing you more than just fixing it and moving forward to make the transaction end.
I had that same thing happen with a pretty rare Remington 700 not long ago. We take the bolts out of all bolt actions and put them in bubble wrap envelopes....wrap everything up and pack things so rabid apes cannot damage it (still not good enough sometimes.)
I got the call that the bolt wasn't sent.....told him I was certain it was sent, let them "look for it" and got another call that it was not there. I sent a return label, ordered a replacement bolt, mailed a full refund to the buyer when it arrived, took it directly to my gunsmith and had the bolt fitted and chamber tested...relisted it with the same pictures because it looked exactly as it did on the 1st go around. That one cost me $300 in the end....but its better to push through, handle it and move on.
Guarantee the employee tossed it by mistake. And now the buyer thinks you are the culprit. Yea, but give him a refund but it stinks on your end.
Not to hijack but my FFL got a transfer and said there was no bolt with rifle. He contacted sender and definitely said the bolt was in there. I got in on the end of the call and asked my FFL friend about the box. In dumpster. I dove in and the bolt was at the end of the box stuck at the bottom in bubble wrap.
Nunn, the bolt is gone. Some idiot threw it in the trash with the packaging material. Don't think you would make a mistake like that. Few years ago seller claimed he never got my M/O but he got FFL. Fought this guy tooth and nail. I knew full well he threw my M/O in trash with mailing envelope. Life is too short. I sent him another M/O and warned him if first one got cashed he was going to jail for mail fraud. I am sure whatever you do it will be the right thing because you are a decent fella. ---------Ray
Refund the money seems to be the only option. If the guy keeps it and wants it to work he has to buy the new bolt and he's out more than you. If he sends it back then maybe you can sell the rifle sans bolt?
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
Crossed my mind. Sooner or later with a little patience you will find a bolt assembly for a lot less than $226. --------Ray
I have zero experience selling BUT if it were me.......I would find a solution, prob refund the $ once the rifle was returned, THEN try and find a way to EXCLUDE that FFL from any future sales. Not sure if you have to option to exclude a specific FLL for transfers, but if you could, I would. Even if it was an honest mistake on the FFLs part, it cost you money. I wouldn't trust that FFL in the future.
Thanks for all your comments. I reckon I'll wait and see if he returns it, and if he does, maybe by then I will have decided how best to proceed.
Sounds like a plan. Maybe someone out there will do some dumpster diving and that bolt will turn up like a miracle. -------Ray
You know you shipped a complete rifle. The buyer knows the bolt was tossed. I would have a hard time not telling him to pound sand.
I'm just curious, is there some legal reason a rifle must be shipped with the bolt removed ?? I don't see how a bolt could be damaged or cause damage if the rifle is wrapped & packed correctly, that's a pretty tough piece of steel right there.
"Never do wrong to make a friend----or to keep one".....Robert E. Lee
The damaged rifles, involving the bolt, I have seen....are due to the right side protrusion of the bolt knob.
What appears to happen, is when laid on it's right side......the bolt knob becomes a fulcrum, and the stock shatters at the wrist area.......when other shipping boxes are piled on top of the rifle box.
It's #1 on my list of shipping requirements......WITHOUT FAIL. #2 is to "ball tape" the end of the barrel.......because most barrels "try" to exit the box or gun case.
For myself.......when packing a rifle, I always assume the box will be tossed about 10 feet.....on concrete........and pack accordingly. 😖😟
Also.......I know of no manufacturer that ships a bolt action rifle with the bolt inserted in the action.
Hope this helps. 😉
I had a hair brained idea a couple weeks ago......you mention "ball tape" the end of the barrel. I thought my guy that does the shipping might like to try slipping a tennis ball over the end of the barrels that don't have sight hoods. So, I ordered a bunch of used tennis balls online. I gave him the box and told him my idea. I don't know if he is implementing this or not? You'd be surprised how cheap those used balls are though.....just a thought if you want to try it out.
Call me crazy, but I'd be inclined to think that the FFL, or the employee that unwrapped everything, would be on the hook for the replacement bolt. They lost it, and don't have the stones to admit it.
Another possibility is, if it was shipped UPS or FEDEX, they maintain the right to open and inspect packages. So there is a chance they opened it and that's when the bolt got lost or (less likely) stolen by the UPS or FEDEX worker who opened it.
The USPS can also open packages, but for First Class and Priority Mail they need a search warrant.
But even if this is what happened, proving it would be a circus.
Another possibility occurred to me, and I know of similar incidents happening on Fleabay:
Maybe the buyer needed just the bolt, so he buys the rifle and claims the bolt wasn't with it. Then he can keep the bolt, return the rest and get a refund. Sweet, huh?
maybe..
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As if a photo of the packaging or dare I say, video, could prevent such a fraud.
But if your business is willing to accept the risk of not documenting shouldn’t your business eat it, in the event what was in the pictures isn’t what showed up for the seller?
Possibilities are all speculation. Yes, you put the bolt in there and I still believe the FFL employee tossed it. As far as that speculation it would depend on their feedback. If someone has over say 50 plus then I don't think that is plausible. imo only.
All businesses regardless of the type encounter situations like this where something just goes "hay-wire" and can't be explained, that's just a small part of doing business that all business owners experience, you have to accept it as is, learn from it and move on.......or else pack it in.
"Never do wrong to make a friend----or to keep one".....Robert E. Lee
This buyer has one feedback entry, mine.
Maybe don’t give feedback until transaction complete? It’s more than just paying
I would think that it is more likely than not that the FFL tossed the bolt out when unboxing the rifle. You would think that being a FFL that when he unpacks the box and dose not see a bolt he would naturally start looking for it and if it is not found he would ask the buyer if the rifle was supposed to have a bolt with it. Could have been some young careless employee who does not care or has no idea of firearms. Nunn could very well be right about someone just needing a bolt and then trying to send the rifle back claiming it came without a bolt.
A picture of ALL parts accounted for laid out on the bubble wrap just moments before wrapping and placing in carton says 10,000 words in an instant.
Nunn, I'd be sure to make a photo prior to shipping anything in the future.
Otherwise, You shipped it, They received it. And it was unpacked by someone other than buyer and dealer.
I don't think you need to do anything more. If the gun is valued at $125... maybe determine the value of a bolt and agree to offer that much ONLY as a refund. Otherwise, I'd let sleeping dogs do what sleeping dogs do.
Sadly, pictures mean nothing if the sender is unscrupulous. Look at the online videos of delivery employees who take a pic of the item delivered to the door, then scooping up the package and leaving.
All they have to do is take a photo showing all the parts ready to wrap, then removing the bolt and wrapping the package. It boils down to hoping you are dealing with honest folks.
David, I have a bad feeling, that you hit the nail on the head. That guy needed the bolt. JMHO.
So how'd this end??
The rifle has not been returned, and I have heard nothing more from the buyer or the dealer.
I'm thinking they found the bolt and don't want to admit their mistake.
Happy ending!
Needed a bolt or they went dumpster diving and guess what they found? ------------------Ray
Are you going to poke the bear and ask ? 🙄😁