AR-15s in the suck

GUTTERRATT

I am not a commando nor am i a wannabee I just want to ask you guys if the old ARs use to jamm like I'v heard. I'v heard guys claiming to be in the special forces and being in the poop. taking a pot shot now and then at the LT, I heard some say the smartest thing you can do is shoot a charlie and take his AK and ammo or find one on the ground and throw your M-16 in the river, Has anybody on this forum found them selves in a situation where your AK or M-16 jams with a wave of north vietnamese coming at you???

aap2

I was in the army and fired the M16 and AK47 quite a bit, never in combat, but I did have a chance to talk to a LOT of guys who fired the M16 in combat and some problems did occur...One of the training officers at West Point told me that the early ammo had a type of ball powder that fouled the gas tube with some sort of calcium residue and one that happened, you had a single-shot rifle. Picking up an AK would get you an article 15 or worse; the AK makes a very different sound than an M16 and if you or anyone in your squad was using one you would probably draw enemy fire. The M16 that I was issued was an early one and it was certianly used a lot.....It was accurate and dependable........However, I will say that the AK47 has many features that I like: it's more of a carbine and more robust than the M16; I had an older AK47 with a milled receiver that was used for training in Vietnam and it was probably never cleaned and even with the crappy steel-cased ammo, it never jammed, at least when I was shooting it on the range. A combat vet can probably give you advice on how to repel a wave of NVA; my guess is that small-arms on full-auto are a mistake. It looks cool when John Wayne shoots the M16 on full-auto and the enemy soldiers drop like flies, but if I was ever in a life or death situation (never was) where the lives of my men depended upon rifle fire, I would hope that everyone had their weapon on semi-auto. But then, I'll let someone who has combat experience answer than one; my experience was on the range and in the classroom and in 30 years of service, I never fired at anything that could shoot back. Oh, and I heard a rumor that our guys would scatter AK47 ammo (7.62x39mm) loaded with C4 or some excessive pressure load in the hopes that the enemy would pick it up and use it..........I'll bet my next pension check that that's another BS story. Merry Christmas....

dheffley

The M16 was issued without the proper cleaning kit, and yes, they jam when they are not kept clean.

There were problems early, but they were overcome, for the most part, by proper cleaning.

That bing said, it's hard to stop and clean your rifle in the middle of a grungy fire fight. The AK wasn't so picky.

krink

The differences of M16/AR15 and AK-47 it`s like day and night. I have AK-47 that had shoot about 30.000 rounds and never cleaning the gun and no jamming. thath`s a real combat rifle.

Paddiegrunt

In a year in 1968 of hummping the paddies and chasing charlie mine only jammed once, but it did it at the wrong time. I was walking point in the summer of 68 and a charlie starts shooting out of bunker in the ground at me, I hit the dirt roller over next to a paddie dike and tried to return fire but my 16 was jammed and would only fire single shot and I had to eject the spent casing. Luckly all the guys in the squad stated returning fire on the bunker, then I could knock the bunker out with a greanade. After that I carried a M-14 for the firepower and stoping power.

Jim Rau

Actually there was more of an ammo problem then a gun problem. I surmised this while in country the first time. I saw we had more problems with certain lots/manufactures of ammo then others and made note of it. When I went to 3rd Ord I would pick and chose what ammo I took. Many others thought I was nuts. To them 'ammo was ammo'! Later research showed when the contracts were let for the ammo there was no specific powder required only bullet size and type, and muzzle velocity. Thus many different powders were used and it changed the interior ballistic, mainly the pressure curve. Thus extraction problems where encountered caused by some of the powder used by different suppliers!!![V]

aap2

Jim Rau-you hit a big part of the M16 jamming problem on the head: the ammo. A lot of the early ammo was made with ball powder that had a deterrant coating on it (to slow the burn rate and modify pressure), the problem was that it was Calcium-based and quickly clogged the thin, stainless-steel gas tube that supplies the bleed pressure to make the action work. One that gas tube was clogged, it required repair that could not be done in the field, and rendered the gas system non-functional. I have a civilian Colt AR15 SP-1 that was made in 1973 (cost $169) which is the exact same (to my eyes) as the M16 of the same vintage that I was issued except for the full-auto feature...It has had probably in excess of 10k rounds fired thru it (free ammo) and the only time it ever jammed (ideal range conditions, not combat) was when I used a defective magazine. The newest versions of this rifle are awesome; the early versions suffered greatly from bad ammo, lack of cleaning equipment being issued (even the AK came with a cleaning rod attached and a cleaning kit in the butt-trap)....

GUTTERRATT

the problem lied in chrome plated chambers, The army blamed it on ammo and other things while they discreetly changed the uppers...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur2xbYPouIo

11echo

I was in the Army from 73 to 76, I only had the M16 jam once and that was in Basic. We were at the machine gun range; newly introduced to that function of the 16. One of our guys "insulted" some officer by not saluting "properly" so the whole company had to low crawl with weapons for about 30 yds. My weapon was so dirty I was surprised it fired at all!!? ...But half way thru a clip I got the classic double feed. I just dropped the clip out and dump the loose rounds and reloaded and continued to fire ...no problems. That was the one and only time for me. You kept it clean it worked fine!
Now I heard in the early days, chambers weren't chromed lined and not cleaning kits were issued, and they were using ball power (which burns dirty). My hat is off to any solider that was in combat with that weapon!!

bobbyjack

quote:Originally posted by 11echo
I was in the Army from 73 to 76, I only had the M16 jam once and that was in Basic. We were at the machine gun range; newly introduced to that function of the 16. One of our guys "insulted" some officer by not saluting "properly" so the whole company had to low crawl with weapons for about 30 yds. My weapon was so dirty I was surprised it fired at all!!? ...But half way thru a clip I got the classic double feed. I just dropped the clip out and dump the loose rounds and reloaded and continued to fire ...no problems. That was the one and only time for me. You kept it clean it worked fine!
Now I heard in the early days, chambers weren't chromed lined and not cleaning kits were issued, and they were using ball power (which burns dirty). My hat is off to any solider that was in combat with that weapon!!

I hope nobody here takes you for real.No trooper calls magazines CLIPS EVER!

Bob

Laredo Lefty

11echo...... I was in combat with that weapon, the M-16A1. Mine worked just fine every time. I was in country from Sept 68 to Sept 69 after the bugs had been worked out.

We had cleaning gear although not the best, it got the job done.

aap2

In my opinion (non-combat firing limited to extensive range fire), adding the chrome-lined chamber was the key to making the M16 reliable. Sure, the ball powder problem was significant, but the ammo for the AK was worse than anything that we ever issued for rthe M16. The AK rounds were always steel-cased, which not only rusted but are prone to sticking in the chamber because steel does not expand upon firing then spring back like the brass case on the M16 round. Add to this the fact that steel cases rust and the AK ammo was corrosively primed should have made the Ak less reliable. But it was not, because, IMHO, the chamber and bore of the AK was always hard-chrome lined. I can't speak for combat useage, but the AK that I fired worked perfectly well with lousy, semi-rusty ammo fired in it's chromed chamber. I'll bet that a reasonably maintained chromed chamber M16 was a very reliable weapon.

MMOMEQ-55

The problem I had was that I went thru boot camp with a M-14 but got to VN they gave me a M-16. OK what the hell do I do with this toy?

11echo

bobbyjack ...Well sorry, it's been over 30 years since I was in the military and I'm use to talking with civilians these days. ...Plus I wasn't a "Leg" either! [:D]

Laredo Lefty ...You had the same weapon I did. I had my hat off to the guys with the weapon before ours. I can think of no scarier situation then to be in combat and have doubts about if your weapon is going to work or not! ...Glad I wasn't in that spot!!!

rotarymetertec

I also belive they opened the tolerance for the bolts to. The bolts are not interchagable with out micing them for proper fit. the 3 rings on the bolt if the slots are lined up could cause it not to eject shells too. slots 12 4 and 8. time served 83 to 04 A1 & A2s