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Capturing AK rifles - did it really happen?
Henry0Reilly
Member Posts: 10,893 ✭✭✭
It seems like this has been addressed before (maybe even by me) but dheffley posted about the AK in GD and it made me wonder.
From a recent interview with Kalishnakov:
quote:"During the Vietnam war, American soldiers would throw away their M-16s to grab AK-47s and bullets for it from dead Vietnamese soldiers," he said. "I hear American soldiers in Iraq use it quite often."
And in Rambo, First Blood Pt II he prefers an AK to the weapons offered because "every kid over 14 in Vietnam has an AK" - no mention is made of reliability issues.
From a recent interview with Kalishnakov:
quote:"During the Vietnam war, American soldiers would throw away their M-16s to grab AK-47s and bullets for it from dead Vietnamese soldiers," he said. "I hear American soldiers in Iraq use it quite often."
And in Rambo, First Blood Pt II he prefers an AK to the weapons offered because "every kid over 14 in Vietnam has an AK" - no mention is made of reliability issues.
I used to recruit for the NRA until they sold us down the river (again!) in Heller v. DC. See my auctions (if any) under username henryreilly
Comments
Whenever we had control of an area after a shootout, we'd police up the leftovers- guns, ammo, misc, etc. As long as intel didn't want it, and some lifer with a lot of feathers didn't hassel you, you could keep it, at least until you left country.
I preferred the design of the AK, primarily because of the "slow" or initial extraction, not had by the M16. Aesthically, I prefer a bolt that remains inside the action, rather than free floating into the stock. I also preferred the heavier bullet with slower velocity, so recoil was minimized. That said, I preferred one of the US guns available to me at various times (M14,16,60) and found that I liked having an armorer trained in the guns functioning, and knowing where the ammo had been, and was more reliable from the misfire standpoint.
To Wolfhound: Were you in B52/Chau Doc?? Did you know DDD (Medal of Honor)?? You're giving the correct timeline. Best, Joe
Hi Joe:
No I can't say that I knew him, I was in Cu-Chi, Hoc Mon, and all up in the north. However, most of my time was spent with Co. C 1/27 in the Iron Triangle, Hobo Jungle & Boloi woods....then was reasigned to SOG [:(!] for 3 months then back to 1/27 during the 68 TET.[xx(]
Wolfhound
BTW, I never had problems with my '16 and can't recall anyone else having a bad time with one. The M16, as any other weapon, needs to be maintained properly.
weapon of ours. Never mind what a few movies shows where the MP-38 was
a "choice weapon" by the U.S.. Not true. WE stuck to our own weapons
even though not all were T.O.E. exactly. Civilian type weapons such as handguns were only for high ranking officers (Patton for example).
Vietnam was different from WWII in that the soldiers in WWII were moving from the beachead to Berlin or Rome or the top of Surabachi or whereever; In Vietnam the units were stationed in a compound or firebase, where a soldier or Marine would have his "own space". From there they would leave to go in the bush for a patrol, ambush, or operation. When the patrol,etc was over, they'd return to their space. Those that prefered something besides there issued weapon would leave it on their cot or such. While things were generally safe, there would occasionally be a thief among us. I bought an Omega watch and when it started having trouble due to water and dirt I left it in my area. When I returned from the op, it was gone. Same thing for a few other issued items. So much for being a band of brothers.
Even on the line it jammed up, but then, it was a new weapon. Our unit stayed with the M-14 all through the tour.
All i can say is, It the M-14 fired every time I pulled the trigger,Clean, dirty, wet, mud and rice paddy goo did not stop it, a lot of rounds went through it on 12 seperate S&D missions.
AK-47s , and like kind weapons will also shoot as the 14. m-16 Ar-15s are finicky at best.
Chu-Lie, USMC, 1965-1966, RVN, 0311.
BTW: The C-124 was never called a Flying Boxcar.
When we would fly an emergency resupply, it was always with M16 ammo. It's all they stocked. I cannot imagine having to depend on dead NVA for your ammo. Further, imagine not being able to recon by fire because you didn't know where your next ammo would come from...
Best regards,
Steve R.
While I was in Nam anyone who could get ahold of an AK carried one. M16's were in most cases not thrown away (enemy could get it and you would be in hot water if you couldn't produce your issued M16 when inspected). AK ammo was readily availiable. It was the official Army policy that US soldiers were not to carry and use AK's. However it was never enforced - at least in most combat units. It is a little known fact that LC Arsonal produced 7.62x39 ammo for shipment to US forces in Vietnam in the late 60's to the end of the war for issue to the troops who were not officially authorized to carry an AK. The AK could be thrown in a rice paddy for a week, then sank in the ocean for a week, and then burried in the sand for a week and come out firing. The M16 would jam if you carried it across the beach. In fact for awhile the Army was issuing large clear plastic "Baggies) to carry the M16 in so it would fire when you needed it.
Your absolutely right about that 41nut. I had two M-16's at one point of my RVN tour. I don't quite remember how I came into possession of two (2) M-16's but I do remember that one of them was made by General Motors and the other one was made by Fridgidaire (sp) But your correct, weapon of choice for a Pathfinder or LRRP was the AK-47. I know this because we took those men to the place where they 'START', and it didn't look good. Maybe if your deer hunting, thats what I do now. quote:Originally posted by 41 nut
While I was in Nam anyone who could get ahold of an AK carried one. M16's were in most cases not thrown away (enemy could get it and you would be in hot water if you couldn't produce your issued M16 when inspected). AK ammo was readily availiable. It was the official Army policy that US soldiers were not to carry and use AK's. However it was never enforced - at least in most combat units. It is a little known fact that LC Arsonal produced 7.62x39 ammo for shipment to US forces in Vietnam in the late 60's to the end of the war for issue to the troops who were not officially authorized to carry an AK. The AK could be thrown in a rice paddy for a week, then sank in the ocean for a week, and then burried in the sand for a week and come out firing. The M16 would jam if you carried it across the beach. In fact for awhile the Army was issuing large clear plastic "Baggies) to carry the M16 in so it would fire when you needed it.
quote:Originally posted by VinhlongVet71
And incidently,,,, I brought a Chicom Type 56 SKS back home with me. Anybody want to know how I did that?quote:Originally posted by VinhlongVet71
Your absolutely right about that 41nut. I had two M-16's at one point of my RVN tour. I don't quite remember how I came into possession of two (2) M-16's but I do remember that one of them was made by General Motors and the other one was made by Fridgidaire (sp) But your correct, weapon of choice for a Pathfinder or LRRP was the AK-47. I know this because we took those men to the place where they 'START', and it didn't look good. Maybe if your deer hunting, thats what I do now. quote:Originally posted by 41 nut
While I was in Nam anyone who could get ahold of an AK carried one. M16's were in most cases not thrown away (enemy could get it and you would be in hot water if you couldn't produce your issued M16 when inspected). AK ammo was readily availiable. It was the official Army policy that US soldiers were not to carry and use AK's. However it was never enforced - at least in most combat units. It is a little known fact that LC Arsonal produced 7.62x39 ammo for shipment to US forces in Vietnam in the late 60's to the end of the war for issue to the troops who were not officially authorized to carry an AK. The AK could be thrown in a rice paddy for a week, then sank in the ocean for a week, and then burried in the sand for a week and come out firing. The M16 would jam if you carried it across the beach. In fact for awhile the Army was issuing large clear plastic "Baggies) to carry the M16 in so it would fire when you needed it.
Your absolutely right about that 41nut. I had two M-16's at one point of my RVN tour. I don't quite remember how I came into possession of two (2) M-16's but I do remember that one of them was made by General Motors and the other one was made by Fridgidaire (sp) But your correct, weapon of choice for a Pathfinder or LRRP was the AK-47. I know this because we took those men to the place where they 'START', and it didn't look good. Maybe if your deer hunting, thats what I do now. quote:Originally posted by 41 nut
While I was in Nam anyone who could get ahold of an AK carried one. M16's were in most cases not thrown away (enemy could get it and you would be in hot water if you couldn't produce your issued M16 when inspected). AK ammo was readily availiable. It was the official Army policy that US soldiers were not to carry and use AK's. However it was never enforced - at least in most combat units. It is a little known fact that LC Arsonal produced 7.62x39 ammo for shipment to US forces in Vietnam in the late 60's to the end of the war for issue to the troops who were not officially authorized to carry an AK. The AK could be thrown in a rice paddy for a week, then sank in the ocean for a week, and then burried in the sand for a week and come out firing. The M16 would jam if you carried it across the beach. In fact for awhile the Army was issuing large clear plastic "Baggies) to carry the M16 in so it would fire when you needed it.]
you could bring a sks back seeing that it was a semi automatic. so what is the mystery to this bring back?
A few specialized units carried AKs due to the sound signature, but most regular units would not - for the same reason.
You could also (with a good deal of paperwork) bring home an SKS. Back then, there was NO ammo for it here in the States, however. And darn few guys who'd been nearly killed by the things wanted to have one as a reminder, either.
As a guy whose job it was to see the bad guys from an airplane, I assure you that nobody made "airline" takeoffs with a nice level climbout. The ONLY time one wingtip didn't point pretty much down was when you were rolling from one to the other!
I was part of the operation where such rounds were swapped into supplies of ammo going down the Ho Chi Minh Trail. The effect was to cause massive morale troubles. Every time a VC or NVA touched off a round, he could never be sure it wouldn't go kablooie in his face. (My part was a very small one, but I was definitely there and did that.)
We were instructed not to do so, and the reasons were obvious. The two weapons sounded so unalike, I would not want to draw friendly fire to me. For the same reason, LRPS and similar behind-the-lines types ought to prefer them.
I was Navy, and arrived late in the game (1972). Others may have a different story to tell.
Only once did I see anyone carry AK-47s anf those were Rangers from the 75th for tha same reasons that are listed for the SEALs above.
I always said I would rather be shot by a 7.62x39 than a 5.56mm M16 round. We most often gathered the weapons and ammo up and burn and blew them up in place to destory them..
If we had to carry them out it was a struggle.
I found that if I kept me M16 clean and lubercated that I never had a problem.
The 1st one that I was issued had a three prong open flash suppressor and I hated that feature as if was always getting caught in grass and vines. Once I got a new model with the closed flash suppressor and vented butt stock I was good to go.
The only personal weapon that jammed on me was my 1911 Ithaca 45 and that was because someone in the arms room had switched magazines while I was on R&R and an magazine ear was bent jamming the slide.
I spent a week with a Marine CAP Comapny south of Da Nang in late 1969. I found the M16 that I drew from the rack of rear personnel for a night time security patrol was very clean on all outward surfaces and very dry. When I took the bolt apart they had a cow but it was all carboned up.
I cleaned it with a lot of elbow grease, LSA, Pipe cleaners and bore brushes on the firing pin and bolt interior. Their Captain told me that only the Armorer was supossed to take the bolts apart by their SOP.
I gave classes for the whole company over the following two days, I also showed them how we used a B3A Unit C ration Can to help feed the M60 Machinegun when not attaching an ammo can to it. In the sand and dirt the M16 did take a some care but it is and was a fine weapon.
The AK is heavier and more inaccurate than the M16. They are amazing weapons in their design and how cheap they can be made. They also jammed and sometimes whould not fire.
The day my 45 jammed a VC had just pulled the trigger on his AK from about 20 feet trying to shoot me and his AK failed to fire. I shot him in the leg, first shot and then my pistol jammed, another soldier finished the situation with a burst from his M16. The round in the chamber of the AK had a dented primer and all the rest of the magazine fired. It was my lucky day. As a photog I carried only a 45 and usually 2 handgrenafes
I can say that none of the units I was attached to would have allowed an unauthorized weapon to be carried as a primary personal weapon, but there were a lot of units that I did not see.
I got in trouble for trying to carry a Thompson sub-machinegun that we captured when I first got in country. It was heavy, badly worn and not reliable, but looked cool as hell. Later I sometimes carried an M3 Grease gun but I was not primary infantry then. I did smuggle a 357 back when I returned for my second tour but was stolen from my shoulder holster while I was asleep after a 36 hour duty stint. I don't know if a GI or Mama Son stole it. Both were in the barracks during the time.
Eagle
I trained with the M14 at Fort Ord in Calif. Then with the M16 at Fort Lewis Wash. When I got to Nam was issued another M16. If they were cleaned and lubed once in a while they worked just fine.
We were allowed to bring home SKSs but not AKs since the AKs were full auto guns. Nobody in my unit switched to using AKs when we captured them.
Me with my sweet 16.........
[img][/img]
But he has told me several times that he would clean his M16 in a drum of Diesel fuel and it eventually took off all the bluing. He said a lot of people wanted his gun when he left because it was bare metal.
He also would talk about the rats that would hide in the sand bags.
I was in RVN 1969 - 70, Army Security Agency - was first attached to 9th Inf. Div in Mekong, later spent time just about every place else, including a couple Marine units along the DMZ and around Quang Tri, Phu Bai, Hue area. I only ever saw ONE man carrying an AK, along with his M16 - a young looking Marine and he was sitting across from me in a Chinook. Only allied troops I saw equipped with AK were a couple hundred Nungs lead by a 5th Spec. Forces team at My Phuc Thay along the Parrot's beak - they made a lot of incursions into Cambodia on Ho Chi Minh Trail interdiction missions. They also brought back a lot of intel documents and NVA troopers' personal journals. I saw several VC main force units that were apparently equipped with M16s - found them laying along side the dead after a couple ambushes. It may be just chance that I didn't see all those US GIs arming themselves with AKs, but I did get around quite a bit - 9th ID, IVY Div, 196 LIB, 1st Air Cav, 24th Tropic Lightning, 101st AB, and those few Marines up there in the North - never saw any of them carrying AKs.
I had a M-1 Carbine I bought from a RVN soldier for 50P. But I never carried it in the field. It was used mostly to shoot rats, late nights, in the firefire zone, that separated the perimeter of our camp when I was on guard duty, after dark. I would pop a parachute flare, or two. And watch the flare light illumate the early morning sky after a moment, and the rats scatter.
Gun cotton is hardly part of a Marine's usual field kit - and neither are reloading tools.
Various kinds of enemy ammunition WERE doctored to explode, but it was never done in the field. To be undetectable, it had to be done in labs here stateside, and then shipped back. That doctored ammo was never planted inside Vietnam, either. It was ONLY inserted randomly into enemy supplies in Laos and Cambodia. I was involved in it, and I know.
our rear was in Chu Lai. We were issued M16's, M79's M60's. No one in out Battalion carried, or did I see anyone carry a AK, except for ones that were recovered or captured. I was a armor in the states and helped swap out our arms room supply of 14's for the new 16's (1969)- I saw no jams or problems with the 16 in the states or in Nam, that I did not have with any other, with the exception of the magazines, which would hang when we would put a full 20 rounds in it - reducing it to 18 rounds or buying a banana clip on the black marked (30 rounds)corrected this issue. The M60 would jam when it got wet or light on oil. In order to keep it going during the monsoon season, we would open it up an pour a half a bottle of LSI oil in it, close it back up and continue firing. -
1st Cav first to go last to know.