In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
Options
My strong opinion
n/a
Member Posts: 168,427 ✭
First of all for ECC: Let me say that if I am out of line here I am sorry. But I thought hard about this before posting it, and felt it was something I needed to say.
With all the talk that Hairy has made with his views that many people around here feel that he makes in support of the very terrorists that the fine men and women in our Armed Forces are over in the middle east fighting. I find it very offensive that Hairy would even post on the Gulf War Forum.
I say this as a Desert Storm Veteran and someone who remembers very well the tragedy that happened on 9/11.
I know that if I was over in the middle east doing my job, I would consider his comments that can be found all over these forums as a personal attack on my character. These same comments could also be seen as bringing down the morale of our troops.
How can I come to this conclusion? Well let me tell you.
I have read alot of Hairy's posts (I'll admit not all, because I totally dissagree with his outlook), in not one of his posts have I seen anything about supporting our troops. All I have seen is alot of bashing about why we don't belong there, and how we are loseing this war.
Think about it, even if it were true (which I don't think it is) that we were looseing the war, and you were over there fighting this war. Do you want to hear about how we are looseing? I know I sure wouldn't!
Remember Hairy, Most of our men and women in uniform believe in the job they are doing. Your verbal attacks on them and the job they are doing are very demeaning.
And with that being said: I would ask Hairy not to post on the Gulf War Forum. This should be a place for our troops to get support and praise. NOT GET BASHED FOR DOING THIER JOB.
With all the talk that Hairy has made with his views that many people around here feel that he makes in support of the very terrorists that the fine men and women in our Armed Forces are over in the middle east fighting. I find it very offensive that Hairy would even post on the Gulf War Forum.
I say this as a Desert Storm Veteran and someone who remembers very well the tragedy that happened on 9/11.
I know that if I was over in the middle east doing my job, I would consider his comments that can be found all over these forums as a personal attack on my character. These same comments could also be seen as bringing down the morale of our troops.
How can I come to this conclusion? Well let me tell you.
I have read alot of Hairy's posts (I'll admit not all, because I totally dissagree with his outlook), in not one of his posts have I seen anything about supporting our troops. All I have seen is alot of bashing about why we don't belong there, and how we are loseing this war.
Think about it, even if it were true (which I don't think it is) that we were looseing the war, and you were over there fighting this war. Do you want to hear about how we are looseing? I know I sure wouldn't!
Remember Hairy, Most of our men and women in uniform believe in the job they are doing. Your verbal attacks on them and the job they are doing are very demeaning.
And with that being said: I would ask Hairy not to post on the Gulf War Forum. This should be a place for our troops to get support and praise. NOT GET BASHED FOR DOING THIER JOB.
Comments
Support our Troops!
USAF AD
I was in no way asking you to ban Hairy from the forum, and I did not mean for it to come across that way.
I guess what I was getting at is: Opinions do carry over from other forums that Hairy has bashed the troops that are in the middle east. And I personally would feel better if Hairy would be a "man" and take it upon himself and not post on a forum that was put here for the men and women that he chooses to bash in other forums.
And I will say again that this is my opinion that I am stateing. I respect everyone on the forums, including Hairy. He has his views. I may not agree with his views, but he is allowed to have them just as I am allowed to have mine. It's just that I'm sure that our troops that visit this forum also visit the other forums, and if I saw how he feels about the job that they are doing over on those forums, thier opinions will carry over to this one.
And thank you for letting me vent about something that I feel is in moral charector.
....And they get a box of cookies while in the war and a smile and a handshake when they get back. Their support turned out to be misguided thoughts from the sheeple that think America is now better off since we removed a dictator from Iraq that was no threat to Americans to replace him with a terrorist group after full Democratic elections. The sheeple even think that Saudi Arabia is and always will be an American ally and would never cease exports of oil to America or that they had anything to do with 9-11.
Actually the sheeple that think we are better off supporting terrorist countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and making Iraq a complete Anti-American country as well are supporting terrorists.
It completely baffles my mind when people say they support our troops when those same people aren't fighting for our economy here in the US....which is what our troops need. Not a box of cookies and a yellow ribbon on your SUV's.
I was in the Gulf and saw Americans get grabbed up by Muttawa and hauled off to be dealt with as they saw fit....with out one American stopping those terrorists from harming American citizens and military members....we have no SOFA agreement with the Terrorist Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
I LOVE it when sheeple say they support our military BUT NEVER say a peep when Congress decides to keep cutting the military and screw over our military so bad it can't fight a war with a country the size of California...Iraq.
But that's not even a war is it?
Support our Troops!!!!......but let 12+ million illegals come over so the troops can't find jobs when they get back.
All these troops getting blown up and forced to retire ARE NOT being paid their retirements and their VA disability as required by law if you read Hairy's C/P. Now there is America supporting it's troops.
Skimp on $120 million in pay but fork out $220 million for a California Highway and pork barrel projects in a simple act of Congress.
I ain't bashing our troops. I'm bashing the sheeple.
If you read my posts, I have stated many times that I don't agree with the government expecially when it comes to the treatment of our veterans. As far as our being in Iraq now, yes I feel we need to be there. But I also feel that they should have allowed us to finish the job back in 1991. If we would have done it then things would be different today.
How you could bring the immigration thing into this post I have no idea. I never said a thing about immigration. But since you did bring it up, I think our government has done this country wrong by allowing the illegals to keep flowing in. We have had laws in place for years and our officials (both democrat and republican) have desided to ignore those laws.
Now back on subject: I still feel that "ANYONE" who chooses to bash our troops on another forum should have the morals to not post on a forum that was placed here for the troops and veterans to discuse our topics. I did single out one person and probly shouldn't have because there are a few others that have done the same thing.
But do me one favor. Put your self in our troops that are stationed in Iraq's shoes for one minute: How would it make you feel to be over fighting a war and then go online a read a post from a person who feels in his mind that we are looseing said war in one forum, and then go to a forum put there for information about your war and find that same person is also posting there? He may not be bashing you on your forum but you allready know how he feels from the other forum. I know it would make me feel like $h1t!
That is why I ask those who insist on bashing our troops on other forums to have a sence of desency and not post on this one.
After all it is a form of respect, nomatter how you feel about it.
I was in the military for 12 years and was medically retired. Now I'm civil service working with the US Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Coast Guard, and Air Force. I get to talk to/hear them and my job requires me to wear their shoes.
Find me ONE US military member that thinks Iraq will end up being a Pro-American Muslim nation and you will have found a fool.
There is NO Pro-American Muslim Nation and there never will be....matter of fact the American Muslims could one day alter our own country to a dictatorship after our 2nd Amendment rights are removed in a decade or two after the reign of Queen Hillary.
* r done,
I was in the military for 12 years and was medically retired. Now I'm civil service working with the US Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Coast Guard, and Air Force. I get to talk to/hear them and my job requires me to wear their shoes.
Find me ONE US military member that thinks Iraq will end up being a Pro-American Muslim nation and you will have found a fool.
There is NO Pro-American Muslim Nation and there never will be....matter of fact the American Muslims could one day alter our own country to a dictatorship after our 2nd Amendment rights are removed in a decade or two after the reign of Queen Hillary.
Red,
The whole point I have been makeing is: No matter how a person feels about the desitions our government makes, and desides where we are fighting, our troops are just following orders from those superiors. They do not deserve to be moraly bashed and pick on by people who are not there.
Our men and women in the armed forces are in my opinion some of the finest people in the world and deserve to be respected by all.
I fully respect anyones political stand point even if I don't agree with it. And will not try to stop a person from stateing that opinion. But please do not bash these fine troops for following thier orders.
I too was medically discharged from the Army for injuries recieved durring Desert Storm. So you and I have something in common there. So I am sure you can understand my point of giving our troops the respect they deserve.
Also let me say, that me and Hairy kinda had it out about this in the GD forum. And I think we came to understand eachothers views on this better. I have no problem with Hairy (or anyother person for that matter) as a person. I may not agree with his views politicaly as I am sure he doesn't agree with mine. But we both agreed that our troops deserve to be respected.
So you see we can all get along. And please don't be offended if I tell you I don't agree with you, I really do believe that it takes 2 sides of a story to get a full picture. Therefor maybe the solution is to combine both sides of an opinion to really make a differance.
But if our citizens and our military march to the orders of one person and are not allowed to speak their opinion or refuse to serve or deploy....you have a nation of servants.
There's an Army Officer in Hawaii that just refused to deploy to Iraq. The Army isn't kicking him out....they are dropping him one rank...but they ain't kicking him out. An enlisted man wouldn't be staying in the military.
Sorry you disagree with me.
But if our citizens and our military march to the orders of one person and are not allowed to speak their opinion or refuse to serve or deploy....you have a nation of servants.
There's an Army Officer in Hawaii that just refused to deploy to Iraq. The Army isn't kicking him out....they are dropping him one rank...but they ain't kicking him out. An enlisted man wouldn't be staying in the military.
You know I can sympathize with that out look.
I personally feel that if a person who enlisted doesn't want to follow the orders given to him that he should be allowed to leave the service with a genral discharge and no post service benifits.
I say this because it is a fully volentary armed forces right now. I remember some guys when Desert Shield/Storm boroke out crying about how they didn't sign up to go to war. Well I'm sorry, when they signed the dotted line (without a gun to thier head) that was a very real possibility and they knew that.
Now if there was a draft (and I think there will be very soon) my outlook would be very different.
I personally know some people who were draft dodgers durring Vietnam they are some great people. I personally wouldn't have chosen to follow there actions but they did make a stand for what they believed in, and I respect that.
But any person who willingly signed that line and took that oath knew the possibilities of them haveing to go to war. The oath does not state "unless I do not believe in the orders given to me".
Now also there are exeptions if those orders are to fire upon your own people from your country. Then you are faced with a civil war situation and of course people will take sides (and rightfully so).
But the current situation in the gulf, If people don't agree with it they should speak with thier vote. If people want us out, elect the officials that will get us out.
Again, I respect anyones opinion. Even if I don't agree with it.
quote:Originally posted by Red223
Sorry you disagree with me.
But if our citizens and our military march to the orders of one person and are not allowed to speak their opinion or refuse to serve or deploy....you have a nation of servants.The military march to the orders of one person...the President. And those appointed under him to carry out those orders.
There's an Army Officer in Hawaii that just refused to deploy to Iraq. The Army isn't kicking him out....they are dropping him one rank...but they ain't kicking him out. An enlisted man wouldn't be staying in the military.
You know I can sympathize with that out look.
I personally feel that if a person who enlisted doesn't want to follow the orders given to him that he should be allowed to leave the service with a genral discharge and no post service benifits.Dishonorable discharge and perhaps after they went to jail for a few years
I say this because it is a fully volentary armed forces right now. I remember some guys when Desert Shield/Storm boroke out crying about how they didn't sign up to go to war. Well I'm sorry, when they signed the dotted line (without a gun to thier head) that was a very real possibility and they knew that.
Now if there was a draft (and I think there will be very soon) my outlook would be very different.
I personally know some people who were draft dodgers durring Vietnam they are some great people. I personally wouldn't have chosen to follow there actions but they did make a stand for what they believed in, and I respect that.They should never have gotten amnesty and should have been sent to jail. have no respect for any of them, and fail to see where that action would have made any of them great.
But any person who willingly signed that line and took that oath knew the possibilities of them haveing to go to war. The oath does not state "unless I do not believe in the orders given to me".
Now also there are exeptions if those orders are to fire upon your own people from your country. Then you are faced with a civil war situation and of course people will take sides (and rightfully so).
you mean those enemies "foreign and domestic"? There is no choice about the orders one is expected to follow, save those that are blatently unlawful. A court could never convict a soldier firing on American citizens. That soldier is told that those American citizens are enemies of the state.He is sworn to protect that government
But the current situation in the gulf, If people don't agree with it they should speak with thier vote. If people want us out, elect the officials that will get us out.
Again, I respect anyones opinion. Even if I don't agree with it.
quote:Originally posted by *_r_done
quote:Originally posted by Red223
Sorry you disagree with me.
But if our citizens and our military march to the orders of one person and are not allowed to speak their opinion or refuse to serve or deploy....you have a nation of servants.The military march to the orders of one person...the President. And those appointed under him to carry out those orders.
There's an Army Officer in Hawaii that just refused to deploy to Iraq. The Army isn't kicking him out....they are dropping him one rank...but they ain't kicking him out. An enlisted man wouldn't be staying in the military.
You know I can sympathize with that out look.
I personally feel that if a person who enlisted doesn't want to follow the orders given to him that he should be allowed to leave the service with a genral discharge and no post service benifits.Dishonorable discharge and perhaps after they went to jail for a few years
I say this because it is a fully volentary armed forces right now. I remember some guys when Desert Shield/Storm boroke out crying about how they didn't sign up to go to war. Well I'm sorry, when they signed the dotted line (without a gun to thier head) that was a very real possibility and they knew that.
Now if there was a draft (and I think there will be very soon) my outlook would be very different.
I personally know some people who were draft dodgers durring Vietnam they are some great people. I personally wouldn't have chosen to follow there actions but they did make a stand for what they believed in, and I respect that.They should never have gotten amnesty and should have been sent to jail. have no respect for any of them, and fail to see where that action would have made any of them great.
But any person who willingly signed that line and took that oath knew the possibilities of them haveing to go to war. The oath does not state "unless I do not believe in the orders given to me".
Now also there are exeptions if those orders are to fire upon your own people from your country. Then you are faced with a civil war situation and of course people will take sides (and rightfully so).
you mean those enemies "foreign and domestic"? There is no choice about the orders one is expected to follow, save those that are blatently unlawful. A court could never convict a soldier firing on American citizens. That soldier is told that those American citizens are enemies of the state.He is sworn to protect that government
But the current situation in the gulf, If people don't agree with it they should speak with thier vote. If people want us out, elect the officials that will get us out.
Again, I respect anyones opinion. Even if I don't agree with it.
I agree.
I personally would have more compation for a person who was drafted not wanting to be there than a person who volenteered and then desided he doesn't want to go.
If the truth be known, I feel that everyone should have to do some form of military service ( and that goes for women too). Even if it is the coast gaurd ( no offence to our guys in or were in the Coast Gaurd, They have an important job in the defence of this country too) a manditory 3 years should be invoked. Other countries have this why shouldn't we.
Paul, I can see your point and agree to an extent. But the point I was makeing there was there is a difference between an all volenteer military and a draft military.
I personally would have more compation for a person who was drafted not wanting to be there than a person who volenteered and then desided he doesn't want to go.
If the truth be known, I feel that everyone should have to do some form of military service ( and that goes for women too). Even if it is the coast gaurd ( no offence to our guys in or were in the Coast Gaurd, They have an important job in the defence of this country too) a manditory 3 years should be invoked. Other countries have this why shouldn't we.
I agree...with the exception of women. I do not think the military is a place women should be.
quote:Originally posted by *_r_done
Paul, I can see your point and agree to an extent. But the point I was makeing there was there is a difference between an all volenteer military and a draft military.
I personally would have more compation for a person who was drafted not wanting to be there than a person who volenteered and then desided he doesn't want to go.
If the truth be known, I feel that everyone should have to do some form of military service ( and that goes for women too). Even if it is the coast gaurd ( no offence to our guys in or were in the Coast Gaurd, They have an important job in the defence of this country too) a manditory 3 years should be invoked. Other countries have this why shouldn't we.
I agree...with the exception of women. I do not think the military is a place women should be.
I agree women have no place in a combat roll. But there are lots of good jobs for women to do in the military that have nothing to do with combat.
Actually you are incorrect. An Officer's enlisted oath is not the same as an enlisted persons oath upon joining the service.
An officer is not sworn to follow the orders of the President.
Only enlisted are.
If enlisted MUST follow the orders of the President no matter how wrong they are.....why are Americans enlisted in the military going to prison for roughing up Al Quaeda and Iraqi prisoners when the President ordered it? Why did that National Guard unit get sent to prison for taking unsed Army trucks in Kuwait for their mission in Iraq?
They were merely following orders.
Iraq's people were merely following Saddam's orders so they should all be 100% innocent for killing all those Kurds and invading Kuwait.
Germany should be given an apology from America as they were only following the orders of Adolph Hitler and were killed in combat when they were just following orders....
Dictatorship or Presidential orders is not an excuse in explaining what you have done.
CodenamePaul,
Actually you are incorrect. An Officer's enlisted oath is not the same as an enlisted persons oath upon joining the service.I do not know this, but would like to see the difference
An officer is not sworn to follow the orders of the President.
Only enlisted are.
If enlisted MUST follow the orders of the President no matter how wrong they are.....why are Americans enlisted in the military going to prison for roughing up Al Quaeda and Iraqi prisoners when the President ordered it? Why did that National Guard unit get sent to prison for taking unsed Army trucks in Kuwait for their mission in Iraq?See below
They were merely following orders.
Iraq's people were merely following Saddam's orders so they should all be 100% innocent for killing all those Kurds and invading Kuwait.
Germany should be given an apology from America as they were only following the orders of Adolph Hitler and were killed in combat when they were just following orders....
Dictatorship or Presidential orders is not an excuse in explaining what you have done.
Agreed. I would suggest that beating or torturing prisoners, exterminating civilians, or wanton destrustion of their homes is knowingly following unlawful orders. This was the point of conviction from Germany to My Lai (sp?) You are obligated NOT to follow an order you know full well to be unlawful. There need not be a rulebook to explain what this is. We find that rulebook in our conscience.
* r done. I agree there is a difference between draftees and voluteers, but that difference ends when they take the oath. Either can be upset about being there. I personally have no use for a volunteer that claims he/she never wanted to go to war.
* r done. I agree there is a difference between draftees and voluteers, but that difference ends when they take the oath. Either can be upset about being there. I personally have no use for a volunteer that claims he/she never wanted to go to war.
That was the point I was makeing about a person who joined an all "volentary" military. Every soldier who signs that dotted line and takes that oath knows that going to war is a very real possibility.
When Desert Shield/Storm started, we had not been in a full scale military action since Vietnam, (And my apoligies to the Honduras & Grenada guys but I did state "full scale" and niether were really a full scale operation although they were very real) So alot of our guys in the service at that time started screaming about how they didn't sign up to go to war, they signed up to get college benifits and such.
Well even at that time I was saying tuff luck, you joined, now it is time for you to earn your pay for a change. And I still feel that way. You joined, earn that pay that my tax dollars are paying for.
When we went back into Iraq, I tried to get back in. I was willing to give up my service conected pention (which was at that time 70%) to go back and do the job that I felt that those of us that were there in 91 were robbed of. When I got my medical, I never wanted out, but I didn't have the choice. And to be honest if they would take me back I'd go in a second right now. But with my 100% rateing I know it would never happen.
Bottom line Paul: I really think me and you see eye to eye on a majority of this type of issue. There might be some minor differences but on the whole, we are on the same page.
Enlisted Oath:
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).
Officer Oath:
"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)