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Joint Pain in Gulf War Syndrome

n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
edited November 2008 in US Military Veteran Forum
Joint Pain in Gulf War Syndrome Appears Not To Be Inflammatory But Rather Neurological: Presented at ACR-ARHP

By Maggie Schwarz
November 15, 2006
http://www.docguide.com/news

WASHINGTON, DC -- November 15, 2006 -- Joint pain in veterans with Gulf War syndrome appears to be a stress response similar to fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue syndrome, rather than an inflammatory one, researchers reported here at the American College of Rheumatology - Association of Rheumatology Health Professionals Annual Scientific Meeting (ACR-ARHP).

Frank Pessler, MD, PhD, research associate, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and colleagues performed a histological examination of synovial biopsies from Gulf War veterans complaining of rheumatologic symptoms.

Gulf War syndrome is a dramatically symptomatic, incompletely explained illness described among US and British military personnel who returned from the First Gulf War (1990-1991). Some of its symptoms may reflect underlying immune dysfunction. Rheumatologic symptoms, including joint pain and stiffness, are reported frequently, yet whether synovitis is a cause of the articular complaints in these individuals has not been determined until now.

Dr. Pessler and colleagues hypothesized that exposure to a large number of immunizations or toxins might have triggered the joint inflammation associated with Gulf War syndrome.

The researchers obtained biopsies from 9 veterans with Gulf War syndrome, and obtained 7 specimens with sufficient tissue quality for analysis. Specimens from 11 patients with rheumatoid arthritis and 14 with osteoarthritis were used as controls.

Inflammatory changes were quantified using a synovitis score. Cell division and vascular density were also measured. Differences were also assessed using a composite inflammation score that consolidates results from immunohistochemical parameters into one value.

Microscopy revealed normal synovial tissue with changes consistent with healthy joints. Inflammatory cells (macrophages, T cells, CD20 B lymphocytes CD3, CD38 and CD68) were absent.

Mean synovitis score of 1.39 +/- 0.29 corresponded to absence of synovitis. Consistent with these results, inflammatory cell densities, cell division index, vascular density and inflammation score were lowest in Gulf War syndrome, intermediate in controls with osteoarthritis and highest in controls with rheumatoid arthritis.

The low numbers of inflammatory cells, which were occasionally seen, were similar to the background frequency expected in synovial biopsies from asymptomatic knee joints.

Dr. Pessler concluded that prevailing thinking on Gulf War syndrome that points to a neurological stress response rather than an inflammatory one appears to be correct.


[Presentation title: Absence of Inflammation in Synovial Biopsies Form Patients With "Gulf War Syndrome" and Joint Pain. Abstract 160]

Comments

  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    Thanks for the article GRD
  • sarge_3adsarge_3ad Member Posts: 8,387
    edited November -1
    What are they saying that it is all in our heads? Quit thinking about it and it'll go away, or maybe I read this wrong?
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by sarge_3ad
    What are they saying that it is all in our heads? Quit thinking about it and it'll go away, or maybe I read this wrong?
    No Sarge,

    They are talking about your nervous system.

    Definition for neurology:
    - study of nervous system: the branch of medicine that deals with the structure and function of the nervous system and the treatment of the diseases and disorders that affect it

    This would make sence. Much of the time when I personally get my joint pain I have been told that it must just be a strain because of a lack of swelling (inflamation).

    It would also expain why many of the drugs that we are given for the joint pain (ie: anti-inflamitories like motrin) do not give us much relief from the problem.

    But it also leads to another problem. Most of the drugs to treat neurological problems are pretty hard core drugs, many that can be addictive. And they only treat the symptoms so there-for a person would be takeing maintenence doses for life.
  • sarge_3adsarge_3ad Member Posts: 8,387
    edited November -1
    Thanks for spelling it out for me. Now, that explains alot of my problems, and that is the problem with my VA Claim. My joints show minor arthritis and they rate me for that, (curently 60%). I do get some swelling and redness at times, but the pain is always there. I asked them how could they rate me on the xrays alone, when I have this pain issue. My rating is in appeal now.
  • sarge_3adsarge_3ad Member Posts: 8,387
    edited November -1
    Hey *-r-done. I tried clicking on your link and couldn't pull up the page. Any place I can get a hard copy of this?
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by sarge_3ad
    Hey *-r-done. I tried clicking on your link and couldn't pull up the page. Any place I can get a hard copy of this?


    Try This:
    http://gulfwarvets.com/gws_joint_pain.htm

    I get about 60% of my info from the American Gulf War Veterans Association. at www.gulfwarvets.com

    I will say some of their stuff seems biased in our favor. So I go to other places for verification. Not that I don't like things to be in our favor, but I also want the truth as to what is going on with us as I too suffer from what ever it is that we have.

    If you stay on the VA and keep fighting them, you will get you 100%. It took me a long time too. But I still would trade every penny of it to have normal health again. That is why I stay on top of stuff as much as I can. I have nothing more to gain financially but I would like to get my health back again.
  • sarge_3adsarge_3ad Member Posts: 8,387
    edited November -1
    Thanks for the info, and about health and feeling good, I know what you mean. Would love to even have 1 good day without pain.
  • Red223Red223 Member Posts: 7,946
    edited November -1
    That report is BS as usual.

    Before I hit 30 I was diagnosed with narrowing spinal discs resulting in muscle spasms (inflammation) and pain, arthritis, carpal tunnel.

    We were poisoned. And not by the enemy.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Red223
    That report is BS as usual.

    Before I hit 30 I was diagnosed with narrowing spinal discs resulting in muscle spasms (inflammation) and pain, arthritis, carpal tunnel.

    We were poisoned. And not by the enemy.
    That may explain for you. But I for one get the joint pain with no inflamation, or that. I also know many other that do not either.

    The artical does not go into causes as to if we were poisened or what. It only describes the problem as Neurological. Which can be from many causes.

    And at one point it does talk about poisening. "Dr. Pessler and colleagues hypothesized that exposure to a large number of immunizations or toxins might have triggered the joint inflammation associated with Gulf War syndrome."

    To me TOXINS are poisons!

    And I do not doubt these findings or your beliefs about this. I believe there is still much we need to learn about this.
  • Red223Red223 Member Posts: 7,946
    edited November -1
    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/dtbio090100.htm

    Read that.....hmmm same company making the anthrax vaccine eh?

    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/albbio090100.htm



    Gamma Global Globulin:

    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/src-cjd17.htm
    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/src-cjd11.htm
    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/igivsrc053100.htm
    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/igivalp070299.htm
    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/igivalpqrtn.htm
    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/cenigiv92598.htm
    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/src-cjd16.htm
    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/massvzig.htm
    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/src-cjd14.htm
    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/rhod-ig3.htm
    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/src-cjd7.htm


    That's just the tip of the iceberg....anyone that went to the desert got Gamma Global Gobulin and that crap was recalled more than any other vaccine ever manufactured.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Red223
    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/dtbio090100.htm

    Read that.....hmmm same company making the anthrax vaccine eh?

    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/albbio090100.htm



    Gamma Global Globulin:

    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/src-cjd17.htm
    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/src-cjd11.htm
    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/igivsrc053100.htm
    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/igivalp070299.htm
    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/igivalpqrtn.htm
    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/cenigiv92598.htm
    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/src-cjd16.htm
    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/massvzig.htm
    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/src-cjd14.htm
    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/rhod-ig3.htm
    www.fda.gov/cber/recalls/src-cjd7.htm


    That's just the tip of the iceberg....anyone that went to the desert got Gamma Global Gobulin and that crap was recalled more than any other vaccine ever manufactured.
    Once again I point out this statement!

    "Dr. Pessler and colleagues hypothesized that exposure to a large number of immunizations or toxins might have triggered the joint inflammation associated with Gulf War syndrome."


    Would the stuff your talking about not fall under immunizations? Or am I missing something?

    Last I checked a VACCINE was a type of immunization.
  • Red223Red223 Member Posts: 7,946
    edited November -1
    ""Dr. Pessler concluded that prevailing thinking on Gulf War syndrome that points to a neurological stress response rather than an inflammatory one appears to be correct.""

    Neurological Stress?
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Red223
    ""Dr. Pessler concluded that prevailing thinking on Gulf War syndrome that points to a neurological stress response rather than an inflammatory one appears to be correct.""

    Neurological Stress?

    You got me there Red as I am not a Doctor. My mother is so I could probly find out when she gets back from her Vacation in Mexico, But that may be pushing it to as she is in OB/Labor and Delivery.

    I also will not dissagree with you that we probly got hit/exposed/or injected with some nasty stuff. I know I was at Khamisiyah when we blew it up. And it was full of chemical weapons.

    It also puzzles me why my shot records ( the Army lost mine but I had a copy for my personal records before they lost them) have some of the vaccines with nothing but a number code that nobody seems to know what they mean.

    Also some of my medical records from the Army are blacked out. I am talking like the pictures you see of classified material where 1 or 2 paragraphs will be blacked out on the page.

    There is alot that still needs to be explained.
  • Red223Red223 Member Posts: 7,946
    edited November -1
    Part of my medical records 'disappeared' while I was going thru a medical evaluation board.

    If the records would have been present during my board they would have concluded I was eligible for combat related disability. They magically appeared back in my medical records after my MEB was done.

    They forgot one important thing tho. I'm temporary retired and can request a FORMAL MEB right now to correct their little issue.
  • ElSnapitanElSnapitan Member Posts: 4 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I got a medical discharge for chronic left hip pain of undetermined ediology. I didn't get a disability rating though. When I sit cross legged my hips and ankles are sore as heck and I have to walk it off. Is this the same type of pain other people are having? Should I go to the Va and see if they change my disability rating? Is it worth it? I'm already on zoloft for anger issues hehe.


    Snappy
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ElSnapitan
    I got a medical discharge for chronic left hip pain of undetermined ediology. I didn't get a disability rating though. When I sit cross legged my hips and ankles are sore as heck and I have to walk it off. Is this the same type of pain other people are having? Should I go to the Va and see if they change my disability rating? Is it worth it? I'm already on zoloft for anger issues hehe.


    Snappy
    I would have EVERYTHING listed on your rateing.

    Good example: I broke my left little finger (it was a nasty compound fracture) durring desert storm. It healed great with my own doctoring on the battlefield, and gives me no problems what-so-ever. I have a 0% rateing on that finger.

    You might say 0%, big deal! But 0% is still a rateing in the eyes of the VA.

    I would get every little medical thing you ever had in the service listed. I don't care if it was a hang nail, list it.

    You never know if these things: 1) may give you problems down the road 2) may be able to help you claim down the road.

    And since Gulf War Illness is still a mystery illness, things can change on theway they look at it.

    And what ever rateing you have is NOT permanent untill you have had it for 10 years. So the VA can change your rateing if they deside to change the criteria. So the more listed only makes your claim stronger.
  • ElSnapitanElSnapitan Member Posts: 4 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    So if I got out in 92 (that would be over the 10 yr mark) they won't change my rating? Or do I have that wrong?



    Snappy
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ElSnapitan
    So if I got out in 92 (that would be over the 10 yr mark) they won't change my rating? Or do I have that wrong?



    Snappy
    After 10 years your rateing can go up but never down.

    So if you put in for reevaluation it can only go up. But if it was less than 10 years they can lower it. But I personally have never heard of that happening, but is still possible.
  • ElSnapitanElSnapitan Member Posts: 4 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks for the clarification!!
  • UsahogUsahog Member Posts: 18 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Red223
    Part of my medical records 'disappeared' while I was going thru a medical evaluation board.

    If the records would have been present during my board they would have concluded I was eligible for combat related disability. They magically appeared back in my medical records after my MEB was done.

    They forgot one important thing tho. I'm temporary retired and can request a FORMAL MEB right now to correct their little issue.


    Red,
    You have 3 Yrs. from the time your MEB was completed to Appeal.. do you have legal council? and if you have taken the AVA (Anthrax Vaccine) how many shots and lot numbers listed? have you filed a VAERS Report? (filing a VAERS Report will (should) slow down your MEB process and allow for a cronological medical work up and timeline of your medical complaints/diagnosis/prognosis that will also help you with later VA Claims.. the main thing you need before departing service, is to make sure your service connected with some type disability.. this is something that is widely disparged from the military..

    Here are a couple links of interest:
    http://www.military-biodefensevaccines.org/

    If you have anymore questions feel free to shoot me an email..

    Hog
  • cly117cly117 Member Posts: 2 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hey Guys, I have never served in the Armed Forces, but I have gone through a similar illness to GWS. It started when I was 23, I went from being healthy, strong, and athletic to disabled within a couple months. I had horrible anxiety, muscle and joint pain, constant fatigue, flu like symptoms, balance problems, stomach problem, ect. I went to doctor after doctor, who tested me and misdiagnosed me as fine, to crazy, to having Fibromyalgia. The pain killers only worked for a short period and they didn't treat any of the other symptoms. It was going on four years with no relief or answers and my life seemed not worth living.

    Finally, I got in touch with a specialist Lyme disease doctor. He immediately diagnosed me with my history and my blood work that the infectious disease doctors said showed nothing. I have been on high dose Anti-biotics for 1.5 years and I feel about 60% better, but it is still a daily struggle.

    I believe that these doctor and scientist know very little about what is going on with infectious diseases that are chronic in nature. They want a cookie cutter manifestation and only advocate treatment with at max a month of anti-biotics.

    I am theorizing but, I believe that this disease maybe caused by a Lyme like syndrome, either brought on by bio warfare or the meds you received. There is so much more to the world of bacteria than they let on. For instance bacteria can alter form in many ways to avoid detection and ABX medicine and the immune system. The classical form is the only form killed by the most common drugs. When these drugs are used the bacteria shed their cell wall which the immune system attack instead on the internal DNA. These are called L-form bacteria. Science has ignored these, but more and more they are being implicated in disease. In addition, when attacked by anti biotic medicine, these bacteria can form protective colonies in tissues so only the outer layer is killed. Additionally, they form thick protective bio films which shield them from ABX.

    Most doctor know nothing about these stealth forms of bacteria and even how to culture them. In fact, scientist who do know how, use the most common anti-biotics drugs given to make them change to this virtually undetectable forms.

    They are so small, that they cannot be removed from vaccines and often contaminate them. It gets even more complex as I could go on. In addition, there are mycoplasma bacteria which have been implicated in long term immune disfunction and are very hard to eliminate. For instance, I have a mix of pathogens in my systems that is making me sick. I have traditional Lyme (borrelia bacteria), bartonella, mycoplasmia, and a blood parasite called Babesia (similar to Malaria).
    I believe this maybe also the case in GWS. It takes many classes of drugs to treat these recurrent persistent infection.

    Inflammation isn't a necessary component of infection, as non ever showed up in my blood work, and as the Lyme bacteria primarily attacks the nervous system. A SPECT scan revealed inflammation in my brain and lack of blood flow.

    For some further reading on the subject, I recommend anyone who is interested, look at the sight www.bacteriality.com or on the http://www.marshallprotocol.com/. They both support a course of treatment that I am not on or necessarily advocate but am very interested by and give excellent information about the topics I have discussed but in much greater depth.

    I appreciate all your guys sacrifices to our country and I'm real sorry you have to deal with such a poopty disease. I believe that by the chronically ill sharing information, we can learn more and ultimately come to find a cure or relief for these "mystery illnesses".
  • cly117cly117 Member Posts: 2 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I don't know why is says " such a poopty disease. I wrote sh-tty maybe this is censored.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    cly117...welcome aboard and thank you for the info.
  • UsahogUsahog Member Posts: 18 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hi Joe,

    It seems guys who indulge to much into the beverages always seem to know what their talking about.. Huh Joe?

    To bad you don't have a clue as to what the topic is nor the suffering it has caused...

    I knew their was intellegent lifeform over the Potomac Way....[:D]


    USAF(Medically Retired)Vet 85-04

    Hog
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