In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.

Your opinion on Blackwater and other PMCs

ElMuertoMonkeyElMuertoMonkey Member Posts: 12,898
edited October 2009 in US Military Veteran Forum
Just wondering if any of you guys have an opinion on the various private military corporations running around in Iraq right now. I know they run the gamut from professional to barely competent, but what do you think? Do they actually help supplement and augment the American presence there, are they a nuisance, or they and outright hindrance?

I know a lot of them are veterans of various armed forces and I'm not trying to bad mouth or laud them in any way. I just wanted to know what you guys think.

Comments

  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    I've worked for a couple of paramilitary companies in the past. The companies I worked for were very professional and extremely competetant organizations. I have encountered many that were not, as well. I cannot speak for Blackwater or anything that's going on in Iraq right now...it's been 12 years since I left that line of work.
  • skinamarinkskinamarink Member Posts: 12 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Some of them are very professional, but alot of them are nothing but a bunch of cowards who are simply over there to make some big money. I was there from feb 04 to feb 05 and it seemed like we spent most of our time covering there *
  • SSG ZAGSSG ZAG Member Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I currently work with several groups of them, they work good as early warning forces for us, but not much else. There seems to be two different types: 'US Gov't approved' that US owned companies employ for contract security(I believe Blackwater is one of these); and private 'firms' that are hired by wealthy private citizens for bodyguard duties.The latter can be legitimate, proffesional companies that do a very good job, to a bunch of losers/criminals hired off the street. Technically, we aren't supposed to interact with these groups as a matter of Army policy, but I have the cell #'s of a few tried and true groups, and they have ours.
  • amsptcdsamsptcds Member Posts: 679
    edited November -1
    any and all private or corporate armies must be annihilated and the corporations dismantled with their ceo's imprisoned for treason for usurping the constitution.

    look at the rail baron and cattle baron wars in our history.

    Its the same old crap all over again.

    I could only support american area militias, or official military, not these gay bobbie bad boys.

    don't forget that the black water trash bags were supposedly spotted in NO. sorta out of their "zone" wouldn't you say.

    I wish out troops would shoot that bast*rds on sight.
  • PATBUZZARDPATBUZZARD Member Posts: 3,556
    edited November -1
    Actually I wouldn't mind working for Blackwater. Great pay, Great food, less bullpoop. But I do agree that while they have there place in overseas conflicts, I DO NOT want to see them used on our own soil.
  • Jake_S-83Jake_S-83 Member Posts: 2,333 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    not much to add. haven't been too impressed with what ive seen of blackwater, but there are a few groups over here im considering working for. 200k for a year is hard to pass up. [8D]
  • ElMuertoMonkeyElMuertoMonkey Member Posts: 12,898
    edited November -1
    Interesting responses.

    Do any of you think that PMCs and the outsourcing of war are going to be the way of the future? I read recently that BlackWater is hoping to ramp up for battalion-sized oeprations soon... will there be any takers and can these PMCs ever match up to a national military?

    Personally I think it would be politically, economically, and militarily advantageous to have a large corps of private-operated mercenaries to do our bidding. Politically it would be good because who cares if they got killed, economically because while the short term costs are high, we don't have to pay them benefits, and militarily because the good ones will get the job done and continue to grow while the incompetent ones will get out of the game pretty darned fast.

    How this would impact the morale of our regular armed forces I can't really say. And mind you, I'm not for the disbanding or reducing of our regular military, just pointing out the inherent advantages in using mercenaries.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
    Interesting responses.

    Do any of you think that PMCs and the outsourcing of war are going to be the way of the future? I read recently that BlackWater is hoping to ramp up for battalion-sized oeprations soon... will there be any takers and can these PMCs ever match up to a national military?

    Personally I think it would be politically, economically, and militarily advantageous to have a large corps of private-operated mercenaries to do our bidding. Politically it would be good because who cares if they got killed, economically because while the short term costs are high, we don't have to pay them benefits, and militarily because the good ones will get the job done and continue to grow while the incompetent ones will get out of the game pretty darned fast.

    How this would impact the morale of our regular armed forces I can't really say. And mind you, I'm not for the disbanding or reducing of our regular military, just pointing out the inherent advantages in using mercenaries.



    One major advantage they have over the regular military is that they are not nearly as constrained by the political BS that keeps our troops from getting the job done. I've said it several times before and I'll say it again. America and the modern world do not have the stomach for war...and they are a major hinderance to getting the job done.
  • ElMuertoMonkeyElMuertoMonkey Member Posts: 12,898
    edited November -1
    ECC,

    I think that lack of discipline is more of a hindrance than a benefit. Men who do not obey any sort of law in war do not win them. Take a look at Nazi Germany and Communist Russia... they most certainly didn't hold back and look where that got them. Nazi Germany lost up front and Communist Russia took its time, but the end result for the both of them was the same.[;)]
  • codenamepaulcodenamepaul Member Posts: 2,931
    edited November -1
    I think Germany is a poor example, but the principle stands.
  • Jake_S-83Jake_S-83 Member Posts: 2,333 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    a major advantage of using contractors is that if they aren't competant, they don't get make it long, or don't get the job at all. No such thing as 40 year old E-4s in this business [8D]
  • AndyBritAndyBrit Member Posts: 2 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Worked for a Brit company which has ties here in the US. Very professional, disciplined and switched-on guys. One ND would get you fired - happened to 1 guy in the year I was there.

    Interestingly enough, I read an article where the CEO of that company (who is American and ex-CIA) said that he considers Brits more restrained than American contractors - I believe the term he used was "cowboys".

    amsptcds - treason? My, my - and all this time I thought I was helping out the troops [;)]
  • Red223Red223 Member Posts: 7,946
    edited November -1
    There is one way I would support mercenaries and their use.....CIA Operations.

    Like if we pulled every US Troop out of Iraq....then sent in Mercenaries under CIA rule to make Iraq how we want it.

    No news reports coming back if they die.....the US can say we have no troops in whatever country....a real political military need.

    Mixing them in a country where there are US troops in the streets.....naah.
  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    PMC's like Blackwater are a double-edged sword in my opinion. We are in a brutal war and the enemy is brutal. I don't believe in having mercy on the enemy but I also believe in following the laws/rules/regulations. I'd never do anything illegal.

    With that being said, I think some of the PMC's can become rather "cowboy-ish" for lack of a better term. I am aware of one instance that happened to one of our interpreters that was highly unethical and she lived in fear that this particular Blackwater individual was going to come back to Iraq and find her again. He was able to do this because of the lack of strong central control/supervision. Independently operating "cells" working with little supervision from higher eschelons creates an environment in which crimes are more able or likely to occur (i.e. kidnapping, rape, murder). It's easier to cover up. It opens the USA up to a higher risk of embarassment and detracts from what legitimacy we may have with the local population which is critical to victory in Iraq. We will NEVER win without general overall support from the civilian populace.
  • woodguruwoodguru Member Posts: 2,850
    edited November -1
    The heart of this issue is defined by the extreme money and politics of well connected contractors. The contract definitions are loose and the money looser. 700 million dollars to provide support or protection details for this this and this. Who's to say where the money was enough and how much the corporation pockets as profits before saying hey we did this, you wanted us to add this so we need more money. The monster flow of money never stops to them, they know how to work the system and keep a constant flow of new itemizations that the government needs to be compensating them for.<br>
    <br>
    The real damage comes from undermining the military itself. The best quality leadership caliber men are going to jump rather than reinlist to a quadrupled pay and benefit package. The government is paying through the nose for guys that they could have had for several hundred thousand a person less. If a Blackhawk soldier makes $200k a year and the government pays a price for the service that that soldier is doing that is multiples more per soldier. Remember if a specific contact pays 700 million Blackhawk is only going to pay out a fraction of that in hard employee and equipment. They will keep two or three hundred as profit for every hundred in soldier and supplies costs. We are effectively paying closer to a million dollars per man. We could either hire mercenaries directly under a different elite status or simply not use private security services at all except for really specialized services that military would not be suitable for taking responsibility of. This would make a certain number of these guys available to the military where they are far less expensive. Again we pay ridiculous money for what we could do with our own military at far less cost. These ludicrously expensive soldiers have taken over things like embassy security details that were the domain of the cream of the marines. They are assigned to private corporation security and protection that would be too obvious a conflict of interest for us to assign a military detail to. There would be way too much flack about that conflict of interest for anyone, even Bush to have survived. So instead we pay a million per person to perform this same clear cut conflict of interest but it is hidden from public scrutiny. Why are we paying for super bases and security for private interests that are making a fortune over there at all let alone at the inflated rates Blackhawk gets? Anyone feel anything about the fact that war profiteering has up until recently been defined as treason? There sure as hell is some treason going on in this war. It is flat unpatriotic to our country to not be willing to do what can be done by a corporation without getting ridiculous on the profit levels. Instead Bush turns it around to where we are not patriotic as a people unless we throw open the doors of the bank for unpatriotic and greedy thieves.<br>
    <br>
    The cost of private security is way to excessive for what we are paying to have done. More importantly the very thing we are using them for has deceitful origins that would not be tolerated were we to use the military for the same thing. It's a stupid and fraudulent policy.
Sign In or Register to comment.