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Women in modern combat

jsuggsjsuggs Member Posts: 110 ✭✭✭
edited December 2009 in US Military Veteran Forum
I would like to hear your comments of women in combat. Both good and bad. But please only respond if you actually conducted operations where female solders were present. No I heards or second hand stories please.

While in Iraq we often had a lower enlisted female attached to us. Her primary duty was to search Iraqi women. She also was assigned as my driver. She performed both duties very well. But she was only used on missions of short duration. No overnites out in the sand, we didnt need her skills laying in counter IED ambushes or duing security patrol at nite. She was very professional and understood that when we used vulgar language it was not directed at her nor was it personal. The bigest negative was that her presance created a sexual tension among some of the men. But once they figured out that she would not sleep with any of them that tension rapidly deminished and she was treated like one of the guys. She even became a fairly proficent gunner (at the range never on missions).

Comments

  • wildeman.7.62natowildeman.7.62nato Member Posts: 201 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have mixed feelings about women in combat. I have personally seen women use sex acts to obtain favors while in theater. I have also seen women that were attached to our forward deployed unit create animosity between male Marines who were fighting over the women's attention and the women loving evey minute of it. I'm not a women hater by any means, my sister was in the Army and I hope to God she wouldn't stoop to the levels I've seen. I also know that in my gear at 6ft 2in and and weighing in with my combat load at 325 a women couldn't carry me or probably even drag me. I am not happy about the lowered standards for women. They should be held to the same standards as males to maintain a uniform standard. In boot camp we don't lower the standards for the week or fat, why lower them just for females?
  • wittynbearwittynbear Member Posts: 4,518
    edited November -1
    I have no problem with women in theater as a hospital corpsman, or admin, legal, or some other POG job. I disagree with women in combat unless she can meet the exact same standards as the males. The doctor types say thats not possible. Occasionaly we would be able to get a female to search females, most of the time it was not practical. When some come out to search females they did fine. We were not overly sensitive about searching females ourselves if they objected their other option was a bullet.
  • wildeman.7.62natowildeman.7.62nato Member Posts: 201 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    My theory is this, if I told my platoon Sgt that this week I'd miss pt because of cramps and I would be moody and talk back but you can't expect me to show respect for my superiors because of my hormones, Oh, and I'll be light duty and non-combat ready for one week every month for the rest of my enlistment I'd get my * kicked behind a conex box in the motor pool. So why do we let women do it? From a taxpayer's perspective we're paying women for 52 weeks a year to protect our country and only getting 39 weeks of performance. Thank god the Marine Corps still seperates the sexes for boot camp! Oh, the stories I've heard from my cousins in the Army!
  • jsuggsjsuggs Member Posts: 110 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    While I have seen the Bad side of women using hormones as a excuse, and using sexual favors to get what they want. I have seen many with the good qualities that professional Infantry have.

    While not all women are mentaly and phisically fit to serve in direct combat.

    The majority male soldiers are not mentaly and phisically fit to serve in the Infantry.

    I would say about 20% on both of the above.

    As far as carrying someone that weighs over 300lbs. I only weigh 150lbs. I doubt in combat gear that I could carry you very far, maby into the ditch or drag you behind something safe. I would probably let the PLT SGT and his RTO get you since it is his job anyway and I would do my job of trying to close with and destroy the enemy in close battle. For some reason combat is so much more effective when everyone does there job.
  • wittynbearwittynbear Member Posts: 4,518
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by jsuggs
    While I have seen the Bad side of women using hormones as a excuse, and using sexual favors to get what they want. I have seen many with the good qualities that professional Infantry have.

    While not all women are mentaly and phisically fit to serve in direct combat.

    The majority male soldiers are not mentaly and phisically fit to serve in the Infantry.

    I would say about 20% on both of the above.

    As far as carrying someone that weighs over 300lbs. I only weigh 150lbs. I doubt in combat gear that I could carry you very far, maby into the ditch or drag you behind something safe. I would probably let the PLT SGT and his RTO get you since it is his job anyway and I would do my job of trying to close with and destroy the enemy in close battle. For some reason combat is so much more effective when everyone does there job.

    I know that many women use their T&A to get what they want and some try to do nothing but collect a paycheck. However consider this, how many male Marines have refered to WMs as Walking Mattresses, and how many even while deployed have tried to "Get with them." How many have made obscene sexual gestures and noises towards them. I have seen a lot of that and even done some of it myself. Is it fair on either side? The answer is No. I have seen women do their job commendably, I have certainly seen the same from males. Before you form an opinion know this: I don't personally think that women have a place in the military, that is however my personal opinion, which I keep separate from my professional opinion. I see it as being like 2 elephants screwing, all the decions are made way up there and there ain't much you can do about it except deal with it. I have seen some on both sides who need to be kicked back to whatever crap pile they came from.
  • wildeman.7.62natowildeman.7.62nato Member Posts: 201 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    HERE, HERE! Walking Mattresses? What about wookies or desert yetties? I don't think that women should be in the military either, but better them then homosexuals.
  • wittynbearwittynbear Member Posts: 4,518
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by wildeman.7.62nato
    HERE, HERE! Walking Mattresses? What about wookies or desert yetties? I don't think that women should be in the military either, but better them then homosexuals.

    I have no problem with a fag in the military so long as he is not too busy staring at my butt to return fire and I don't know he's gay. I have served with several people that I wasn't too sure about, it really wouldn't surprise me if I found out they were gay, but they were great guys. The units I was a part of were very politically incorrect and we ragged on each other constantly about everything: race, religion, percieved sexual orientation, etc. Don't take that as we didn't like each other, we were like brothers somebody may be called a fag, but he's our fag, and anyone else picks on him we all fight together. If anyone ever come out and seriously said they were gay I think that would have destroyed our unit. I don't really know what would happen because I never saw it, I never even heard of it, but I think everyone would just completely exclude that person.
  • wildeman.7.62natowildeman.7.62nato Member Posts: 201 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by wittynbear
    quote:Originally posted by wildeman.7.62nato
    HERE, HERE! Walking Mattresses? What about wookies or desert yetties? I don't think that women should be in the military either, but better them then homosexuals.

    I have no problem with a fag in the military so long as he is not too busy staring at my butt to return fire and I don't know he's gay. I have served with several people that I wasn't too sure about, it really wouldn't surprise me if I found out they were gay, but they were great guys. The units I was a part of were very politically incorrect and we ragged on each other constantly about everything: race, religion, percieved sexual orientation, etc. Don't take that as we didn't like each other, we were like brothers somebody may be called a fag, but he's our fag, and anyone else picks on him we all fight together. If anyone ever come out and seriously said they were gay I think that would have destroyed our unit. I don't really know what would happen because I never saw it, I never even heard of it, but I think everyone would just completely exclude that person.

    I think it's that way in every unit. It really is like a family, a disfunctional one, but you beat up your little brother but heaven help anybody else who does it. Aren't we all glad Barrack Osama bin Ladin is goin' to do away with don't ask don't tell. I wonder how many homosexuals will wave the banner and run into the military to help with unit cohesion!
  • wittynbearwittynbear Member Posts: 4,518
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by wildeman.7.62nato
    I think it's that way in every unit. It really is like a family, a disfunctional one, but you beat up your little brother but heaven help anybody else who does it. Aren't we all glad Barrack Osama bin Ladin is goin' to do away with don't ask don't tell. I wonder how many homosexuals will wave the banner and run into the military to help with unit cohesion!
    Yeah if they let gays serve openly it will be a really cohesive unit right around lights out. I wonder how big of stink it will cause when the first openly gay Marine gets thrown of the bow of a ship while underway because his fellow Marines can't trust him?
  • wildeman.7.62natowildeman.7.62nato Member Posts: 201 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Think about it logistically, you could pack a lot more Marines and Sailors onto a ship because they could share bunks and they wouldn't complain about the tiny showers! And 5 to a humvee, no way, they could just sit on each others laps.
  • wildeman.7.62natowildeman.7.62nato Member Posts: 201 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sorry, I get sarcastic when some politician says he knows whats best for the military. Shoving gays down the average enlisted man's throat isn't going to make him happy. NO PUN INTENDED! If thier going to try that why not fully integrate the military and have coed showers and barracks? It would have the same effect.
  • wittynbearwittynbear Member Posts: 4,518
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by wildeman.7.62nato
    Sorry, I get sarcastic when some politician says he knows whats best for the military. Shoving gays down the average enlisted man's throat isn't going to make him happy. NO PUN INTENDED! If thier going to try that why not fully integrate the military and have coed showers and barracks? It would have the same effect.


    You are right I hope they have coed showers soon, I would go try to join the national guard if they did. If they had coed showers, I think that would help integrating gays, just look at them as a REALLY ugly chick.
    I think it should be required if you want to be a politician you have to be willing to personally put your butt on the line for 4 years. After that you can run for any office from dog catcher to president.
  • wittynbearwittynbear Member Posts: 4,518
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by wildeman.7.62nato
    Think about it logistically, you could pack a lot more Marines and Sailors onto a ship because they could share bunks and they wouldn't complain about the tiny showers! And 5 to a humvee, no way, they could just sit on each others laps.

    Sailors already share beds
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by 1911 Gunslinger
    My own experience was that they work well in medical and office jobs, but are too weak for most maintenance positions and completely unsuitable for combat. Most are unable to perform to standards and expect to be pampered. They cause controversy whether it is sleeping with someone in the squad or giving officers/nco's bj's they keep things stirred up.


    My experience as well...I screwed around with several women in the first Gulf war (officers included)...met my first wife over there.

    I do not believe women should be in the military...period. Part of my reasoning for that is I believe they should be cherished and protected...not doing the protecting...among a few other reasons.
  • 1911 Gunslinger1911 Gunslinger Member Posts: 747 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ECC
    I do not believe women should be in the military...period. Part of my reasoning for that is I believe they should be cherished and protected...not doing the protecting...among a few other reasons.

    I agree completely with that.
  • havackhavack Member Posts: 2 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    In the Navy I have worked with and for females. I found it was easier to work for a female but harder to work with one. Now I will caviot that I was land based and not deploying but the coworker relationship was such that the female was trying to prove herself way too much but that could have just been her.

    I would not want to have one working for me in any type of industrial area as my father in the lawn care business could not depend on them as much as he could the males and I have witnessed the same with the Navy.

    The females get transferred off the deploying unit and sent to another unit for a time and leave the males to do all the work. We have some that are single and on their fourth kid trying not to deploy. This does not leand itself to a good working relationship as it would always be in the back of my mind that I could get screwed(no pun intended) by the female and end up with her work.

    I will also include that I have seen the rare woman that I would trust to work with/for me but is is the more rare....

    Slightly off topic but what gives with males still being required to register for selective service but the equal rights females do not?
  • jsuggsjsuggs Member Posts: 110 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    One of my friends and I were just descussing weather or not women should have to regester with for selective service last week. We both are veterans and both feel that they should have to register. If there is a war we need as many men carying rifles in the field as possable. During war each woman in the military frees up a man for the Infantry or Armor to use.
  • wittynbearwittynbear Member Posts: 4,518
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ECC

    My experience as well...I screwed around with several women in the first Gulf war (officers included)...met my first wife over there.

    I do not believe women should be in the military...period. Part of my reasoning for that is I believe they should be cherished and protected...not doing the protecting...among a few other reasons.


    Was that you that got caught screwing a female lt in the water buffalo? We had a SSgt who got caught screwing a female lt in a water buffalo while we were in 29 palms. He got an NJP for it, which for a SSgt is like ok whatever you can't really do anything to him. We all bought him lots of beer. It gave us an excuse when we got caught with beer in our camelbacks, we ain't drinking that water.
  • SpotterSpotter Member Posts: 74 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I was on the border and we patrolled into and alongside the vaunted Iraqi minefields. Our 'home' was a little spit of dirt surrounded by CW and every so often Women Marines in trucks would come out and resupply us.

    Much to their credit they were very professional and I don't recall too much oogling or any 'unprofessional' behaviour. It was kind of like seeing your sister show up. I suppose if we were based out there with them then problems might've occurred.

    My fondest memory is several very dirt-encrusted Marines getting cold Cokes from the 'clean' WM drivers. This means something because I was never in a place with a PX or mess privileges for the first couple of months.

    My 2 cents.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by wittynbear
    quote:Originally posted by ECC

    My experience as well...I screwed around with several women in the first Gulf war (officers included)...met my first wife over there.

    I do not believe women should be in the military...period. Part of my reasoning for that is I believe they should be cherished and protected...not doing the protecting...among a few other reasons.


    Was that you that got caught screwing a female lt in the water buffalo? We had a SSgt who got caught screwing a female lt in a water buffalo while we were in 29 palms. He got an NJP for it, which for a SSgt is like ok whatever you can't really do anything to him. We all bought him lots of beer. It gave us an excuse when we got caught with beer in our camelbacks, we ain't drinking that water.


    That wasn't me...and I'll never admit to it...but there were two different Lt's that I became acquainted with[;)] ...the good old days...[:p]
  • bubbhabubbha Member Posts: 12 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Women should only be alowed in the Navy, were they are all women anyways ! [:p]
  • oldwolf49oldwolf49 Member Posts: 73 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Was a squid in the Navy, knew some gay, knew some women, knew some straight, not all of any group were worthy of wearing the uniform, just as I would assume in every branch of the service. Women in combat - if they are willing to do the job, let them. Gays in combat - if they are willing to do the job, let them. The job is the only thing that matters. Off base, on shore, on leave, not my business, on the job thats something I have a say over.
  • wildeman.7.62natowildeman.7.62nato Member Posts: 201 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think it's wrong to have fags in the military, it leads to problems. Should they have thier own showers or should we go to full integration and have coed and gay showers?

    quote:Originally posted by oldwolf49
    Was a squid in the Navy, knew some gay, knew some women, knew some straight, not all of any group were worthy of wearing the uniform, just as I would assume in every branch of the service. Women in combat - if they are willing to do the job, let them. Gays in combat - if they are willing to do the job, let them. The job is the only thing that matters. Off base, on shore, on leave, not my business, on the job thats something I have a say over.
  • wittynbearwittynbear Member Posts: 4,518
    edited November -1
    I think that what you do in your free time is your business, if you want to use your 13 button bib fly to wipe another guy's poop off your junk go for it. I don't want to see it I don't want to know about it. If I do find out you might end up getting off the ship between ports in the middle of the night. From queer bait to shark bait.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by wittynbear
    I think that what you do in your free time is your business, if you want to use your 13 button bib fly to wipe another guy's poop off your junk go for it. I don't want to see it I don't want to know about it. If I do find out you might end up getting off the ship between ports in the middle of the night. From queer bait to shark bait.


    I don't want them there period...gays have NO place in the military.
  • wildeman.7.62natowildeman.7.62nato Member Posts: 201 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I don't want them there period...gays have NO place in the military.
    [/quote]

    Well put, or in the media or any where else.
  • mrseatlemrseatle Member Posts: 15,467 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by 1911 Gunslinger
    quote:Originally posted by ECC
    I do not believe women should be in the military...period. Part of my reasoning for that is I believe they should be cherished and protected...not doing the protecting...among a few other reasons.

    I agree completely with that.


    Amen Brothers
  • RepomanRepoman Member Posts: 11 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    It is not a good idea at all because of the rivalries and sexual tensions it causes. While at Dharan airbase in the early buildup phase of Desert Shield, we had a female that was charging $10 for hand jobs. Then she started palling around with an NCO and most of the other guys started getting jealous which caused a lot of bad vibes.

    I am not against women participating in direct action against the enemy - but they should do it in all-female units that have met the exact same standards as regular units.
  • Resa718Resa718 Member Posts: 4 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I am a woman, I am a veteran, and I deserve your respect for my contributions. I was a medic, I was an NCO, and believe it or not, I didnt like working with most woman either because of all the aforementioned bs most of them bring to the unit. Its not a woman thing, its a little kid thing. We are doing a grown up job and the kids are running around trying to screw each other. I was a Soldier first, and I took that seriously. I did not use cramps as an excuse, and those who tries to pull that poop with me got a good workout. I was dirty in the field for weeks, just like you; I got shot at, just like you; I pulled broken comrades out of bloody trucks; just like you.

    A lot of women in the Army were useless; so were a lot of the men. It didnt matter what was between thier legs; its not what made them lazy or disrespectful. The hard work, the blood, the medals -> I did that because it was expected of me, and because people depended on me.

    There are good Soldiers and bad ones. And btw I can lift your fat *, gear and all....b/c if you were bleeding, my job was to stop it. And I always did my job.
  • bobbyrose512bobbyrose512 Member Posts: 2,212 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Most of my time in the navy was spent working with and for females. For the most part all pulled there weight. If it was moving heavy items they did the same as the males, got help. Spent 6 years with a field unit where the berthing tents were coed with no problems. It seemed like the CO's and XO's had a problem. female CO attitude work the h**l out of them, male CO protect them or I'll have your *.
  • badsbsnf81badsbsnf81 Member Posts: 768
    edited November -1
    27 years served. Seen all of the above and then some. Gay, straight, bi, male or female, it didn't matter to me as long as you got the mission accomplished. The only ones that I ever saw head to the short or long course in shoe repair were child molesters. Before anyone says I didn't do my due diligence, go talk to a lawyer. I did and was told that suspecting and proving are miles apart. Best advice I got was, if someone won't do a sworn statement or bring evidence (pictures, video, witnesses) you don't want to open that can of worms.
  • mtlucas0311mtlucas0311 Member Posts: 1 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think that when you bar any group of individuals from serving, combat or otherwise, all you do is lower the overall strength of your force. I would use blacks in WW2 as my example. Look at the accomplishments of groups like the Tuskegee airmen, all that talent was available for use, but was very controversial because of the social standards of the day. When it comes to women in the military, there are quite a few who I'd take on a patrol without reservation; the problem is that they are outnumbered by their opposite extreme, so all women have a stigma. My point of view was formed by my experience as an infantry squad leader in the Marines, so please keep that in mind. The military does a disservice to the strong, hard charging females I have encountered by having two sets of standards in boot camp. One Corps, one standard. Period. One PFT standard and course, one method of training. Come out with a standard of how strong a Marine has to be, both mentally and physically. If that means Paris Island only graduates 1 female a year, so be it. But that Marine should have all options open to her. Maybe then Marines like the female I encountered at Workhorse in 2003 would get the respect they deserve instead of the stigma that the terds they now commonly graduate to meet goal get her. Oh yea, and she should wear the same uniform as the men.
  • IrishMPIrishMP Member Posts: 1 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Resa718
    I am a woman, I am a veteran, and I deserve your respect for my contributions. I was a medic, I was an NCO, and believe it or not, I didnt like working with most woman either because of all the aforementioned bs most of them bring to the unit. Its not a woman thing, its a little kid thing. We are doing a grown up job and the kids are running around trying to screw each other. I was a Soldier first, and I took that seriously. I did not use cramps as an excuse, and those who tries to pull that poop with me got a good workout. I was dirty in the field for weeks, just like you; I got shot at, just like you; I pulled broken comrades out of bloody trucks; just like you.

    A lot of women in the Army were useless; so were a lot of the men. It didnt matter what was between thier legs; its not what made them lazy or disrespectful. The hard work, the blood, the medals -> I did that because it was expected of me, and because people depended on me.

    There are good Soldiers and bad ones. And btw I can lift your fat *, gear and all....b/c if you were bleeding, my job was to stop it. And I always did my job.


    I'm right there with ya lady.

    The problem I have seen being a female is that the military as a whole is getting lax. They do not want to enforce standards, teach young members self respect...and honestly a LOT of males in the military have a stereotype of military females and associate that with them regardless if it is true or not. Nothing will change unless NCO's step up and do their jobs as mentors, if you allow your troops to act in these ways, they will continue. This goes for males and females alike.

    Prime example, you see a female member hang out with the same male on a regular basis...what do you think first? Most people will assume something is going on between the two of them, but no one really knows.

    To say that women aren't capable to do the job or should only be limited to certain jobs...well think about it. We're already limited. It's not our fault that the OPTEMPO has changed over the years, or that the powers that be decided that we can/should be out front with the infantry. BUT all NCO's (including myself) are guilty of not telling our joes to keep their mouths shut, if you wanna talk about it, you better have evidence...that's the talk I give every single one of my soldiers regardless of sex.

    And as far as pulling a 350lb person to safety...I know a lot of guys bigger than me who wouldn't be able to do that, but can still call themselves Infantry...so where is that a justified statement? That's why you have buddy teams, you move and work together to get the job done if that's what it takes.
  • jasonc14jasonc14 Member Posts: 383 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ECCI do not believe women should be in the military...period. Part of my reasoning for that is I believe they should be cherished and protected...not doing the protecting...among a few other reasons.


    i completely agree.

    my experiences with women in a combat environment is they act like a guy when it benefits them and they act like a girl when it suits them.

    they tried to get the best of both worlds to get by as easy as they could. while we (sgts and below) were living in circus tents with no ac in 130 degree weather, the female Marines got their own tents AC'ed tiny tents right next to the chow halls and snco/officer hooches.

    however we did have a few com chicks that would roll out with us all the time on convoys. they were just one of the guys. the com chief jumped through hoops to make sure our com was as good as it could be which in most cases was poopty. but it was better then nothing.
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