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You can't generalize about an entire religion

tallcharlietallcharlie Member Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭
edited February 2015 in Politics
You can't generalize about an entire religion, or can you?

Can't Pinpoint The Problem? Try The Common Denominator!

This Sums It Up

The Shoe Bomber was a Muslim
The Beltway Snipers were Muslims
The Fort Hood Shooter was a Muslim
The underwear Bomber was a Muslim
The U-S.S. Cole Bombers were Muslims
The Madrid Train Bombers were Muslims
The Bafi Nightclub Bombers were Muslims
The London Subway Bombers were Muslims
The Moscow Theatre Attackers were Muslims
The Boston Marathon Bombers were Muslims
The Pan-Am flight #93 Bombers were Muslims
The Air France Entebbe Hijackers were Muslims
The Iranian Embassy Takeover, was by Muslims
The Beirut U.S. Embassy bombers were Muslims
The Libyan U.S. Embassy Attack was by Muslims
The Buenos Aires Suicide Bombers were Muslims
The Israeli Olympic Team Attackers were Muslims
The Kenyan U.S, Embassy Bombers were Muslims
The Saudi, Khobar Towers Bombers were Muslims
The Beirut Marine Barracks bombers were Muslims
The Besian Russian School Attackers were Muslims
The first World Trade Center Bombers were Muslims
The Bombay & Mumbai India Attackers were Muslims
The Achille Lauro Cruise Ship Hijackers were Muslims
The September 11th 2001 Airline Hijackers were Muslims'

Think of it:

Buddhists living with Hindus = No Problem
Hindus living with Christians = No Problem
Hindus living with Jews = No Problem
Christians living with Shintos = No Problem
Shintos living with Confucians = No Problem
Confucians living with Baha'is = No Problem
Baha'is living with Jews = No Problem
Jews living with Atheists = No Problem
Atheists living with Buddhists = No Problem
Buddhists living with Sikhs = No Problem
Sikhs living with Hindus = No Problem
Hindus living with Baha'is = No Problem
Baha'is living with Christians = No Problem
Christians living with Jews = No Problem
Jews living with Buddhists = No Problem
Buddhists living with Shintos = No Problem
Shintos living with Atheists = No Problem
Atheists living with Confucians = No Problem
Confusians living with Hindus = No Problem

Muslims living with Hindus = Problem
Muslims living with Buddhists = Problem
Muslims living with Christians = Problem
Muslims living with Jews = Problem
Muslims living with Sikhs = Problem
Muslims living with Baha'is = Problem
Muslims living with Shintos = Problem
Muslims living with Atheists = Problem
MUSLIMS LIVING WITH MUSLIMS = BIG PROBLEM

So This Leads To:

They're not happy in Gaza
They're not happy in Egypt
They're not happy in Libya
They're not happy in Morocco
They're not happy in Iran
They're not happy in Iraq
They're not happy in Yemen
They're not happy in Afghanistan
They're not happy in Pakistan
They're not happy in Syria
They're not happy in Lebanon
They're not happy in Nigeria
They're not happy in Kenya
They're not happy in Sudan

So, where are they happy ?

They're happy in Australia
They're happy in England
They're happy in Belgium
They're happy in France
They're happy in Italy
They're happy in Germany
They're happy in Sweden
They're happy in the USA & Canada
They're happy in Norway & India
They're happy in almost every country that is not Islamic!

And who do they blame?

Not Islam... Not their leadership... Not themselves...

THEY BLAME THE COUNTRIES THEY ARE HAPPY IN!!

And they want to change the countries they're happy in, to be like the countries they came from where they were unhappy! Then they won't be happy anywhere. Maybe they'll be happy then.

That doesn't make any sense, but it's Islam we're talking about, so...

Islamic Jihad: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
ISIS : AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Qaeda: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Taliban: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Hamas: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Hezbollah: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Boko Haram: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Nusra: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Abu Sayyaf: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Badr: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Muslim Brotherhood: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Lashkar-e-Taiba: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Palestine Liberation Front: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Ansaru: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Jemaah Islamiyah: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Abdullah Azzam Brigades: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION

There are, of course, a lot more Islamic terror organizations including Islam itself.

One of our members here posted this:quote:Originally posted by Barzillia:
I was pointing out that whether Islam or Christianity, it is a mistaken notion to characterize the many based upon the acts of a few, especially when the few may be misappropriating the name.How about characterizing the many based upon the acts of the many?
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Comments

  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,669 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The real violent History of Islam

    by Michael Lamb

    I encourage this article to be freely reprinted, published and used any way
    one so desires, as long as the content remains unchanged. Any comments or
    additions must be noted at the end of the article, and must be signed by
    its' author.
    -- Michael Lamb

    The United States of America is about to enter a war it does not either A)
    understand; or B) accept the scope of, or C) both. Everyone is preaching
    tolerance while the real evil goes unabated.

    I don't advocate violence, but I don't tolerate it either! If I have to
    fight, I fight, and I fight to win! I ask for no quarters and I give none.
    Does that sound like Islam to you? Well that is their intent! Only ONE side
    can win according to Islam. There can be only one religion in the end
    according to Islam. The question is; which one? (Not that you the reader
    might believe otherwise, by wishful thinking, but rather, by what Islam
    teaches, what Muslims think, and most importantly, how Muslims act
    concerning this.)

    Now of course many of you will say, Hey - wait, there are many good Muslims,
    and many will say, the majority are good peaceful Muslims. And of course
    there have been many posts in the News Group stating things both ways,
    specifically some Muslims trying to point out that Islam is peaceful. In the
    rest of this article I will try to point out why this NOT AT ALL correct!

    Where To Start? What To Consider?

    We start by considering history itself. Both the religion of Islam and
    Western Society has its own versions of what it considers the truth, of its'
    history as well as how it views the others' history. Before we start we must
    consider which version we wish to follow, or how much of each we wish to
    accept; And then we must consider the consequences of any combination
    thereof. And from a Western viewpoint we must also consider what we call
    revisionist history. This is because revisionist history is based upon the
    theory and philosophy that everything has an opposing viewpoint, and the
    only opposing viewpoint to what has been written about Islam, from a Western
    viewpoint, is something relating to or integrating some Islamic viewpoints.

    The combinations and conditions are as follows: Accept Islamic history, you
    will disagree with this article. Accept revisionist history and you will
    disagree with this article. Accept some of both standard Western History and
    Islamic or revisionist history and you will not only disagree with parts of
    this article, you will have shown you have no basis for arbitrarily choosing
    either, but ONLY what you want to believe. This would mean you most likely
    have a lot of wishful thinking, hoping for the best without due
    consideration to the reality of the facts as presented from the accepted
    standards of past Western History. This would come from a good dose of the
    humanistic courses now taught at all school levels, including college. (This
    has become increasingly worse over the last 30 years. ) Modern mind
    conditioning from too much television and mass media also helps to
    drastically develop this mindset.

    Finally note the problem of revisionist history itself; It becoming a new
    standard of teaching during the last 30 years. This coming from the new age
    philosophies of humanism, materialism and new age religions. (including many
    versions of Christianity as well as the liberalization of Catholicism. ) All
    of which requires the rewriting and re-nterpretation of past history. OR you
    can accept the standards of Western History from its' first recordings, of
    which I resend to you. However if you do accept this, be warned, you may not
    like the conclusions; but is it reality, is the question you must ask
    yourself?

    We Start With the Initial Beginning of Islam:

    Founded by a camel driver in the Arabian desert after he married the woman
    who hired him. She was 15 years his senior. After marriage he gave up his
    work and studied religion. In 622AD he had to flee from Mecca to the city of
    Yathrib in the Arabian Peninsula because of his teachings, of which he had
    denounced all other forms of religion. This is known as the official year of
    the founding of Islam. In Islam their calendar year begins here with 0
    (zero)AH.

    He became magistrate of the city and renamed it Medina, meaning "City of the
    Prophet". He acquired 12 wives while there. He took in many followers and
    combined the religion into the politics. When the Jews rejected his calls to
    convert, he turned against the Jews in Medina and elsewhere.

    He plundered and looted all caravans passing anywhere within his reach. With
    this loot, he and his followers built a large treasury for the city, which
    was used to increase his army of followers. Of which he was able too ever
    increasingly gain more and more territory. Eventually leading to war with
    the city of Mecca, which he defeated, and then he easily took the rest of
    the Arabian Peninsula. He was in constant warfare from the time he became
    magistrate of Yathrib(Medina), in 622AD, until his death in 632AD. In that
    time period of 12 years, Mohammed had conquered the whole of the Arabian
    Peninsula.

    In the next 12 years, under the next two caliph's or leaders of Islam, the
    religion would go on to take Jerusalem, Syria, Egypt, Persia, and
    Mesopotamia! ALL BY FORCE AND WARFARE! Let's see that's 24 years of Islam
    and 24 years of warfare! This would put the year at 644AD or 24AH.

    The next two caliph's continued the same ways as their predecessors. They
    took the areas/regions of North Africa, parts of India, and Spain. The
    caliph's line continues, and the wars continue unabated. If it had not been
    for Charles Martel's victory in 732AD at the Battle of Tours; France,
    Germany and the rest of Europe would have surely fallen. So we have 110
    years of Islam and we have 110 years of Islamic warfare against the rest of
    the world. We have all the lands from Turkey to India, to North Africa to
    Spain, all in the hands of Islam! Oh, don't the Arabian Peninsula, Mid-east
    and Persia! But finally Islam has been slowed down, but only temporarily.

    Now instead of large areas conquered in the name of Islam, it is smaller
    areas. Still Islam's drive for land and conquering people does not stop. By
    mid 1050AD, a period of 318 years, Islam has gained more ground, driving
    north towards Russia, northeast towards the Caspian Sea and Kazakhstan,
    Central Asia, and northeast towards the Balkans and Greece. Constantinople,
    a main center of Catholicism was being threatened. Something must be done to
    stop Islam again, or else Constantinople itself would fall, and then
    Greece!Roman Popish armies fought off Islam armies alone until 1096AD, with
    armies of up to 50, 000 men each, battling one Muslim front. Pope Urban II
    in 1096AD, because of deteriorating conditions, and the threat to
    Constantinople, called upon all of Christendom to contribute armies, men and
    material to once and for all drive the Muslims back out of Asia Minor, and
    maybe back, just past Palestine.

    This was the first call of the "Crusades". A series of wars that would last
    almost another 450 years, with only small lapses in time between major wars,
    between another Holy Jihad and another Crusade! It would be correct to state
    for all practical purposes, that the war was constant until approximately
    1550AD! Now if you the reader will just take a minute and do some simple
    math, it becomes more than clear that since the inception of Islam in 622AD,
    that Islam has been a religion of constant and consistent war! It has become
    the world's ultimate long distance war machine, regardless to what ANY OTHER
    historian has to say, in my opinion! Of the time period listed above, it is
    more than safe to say that Islam had been at war for more than 600 of its'
    approx. 900 years of existence. And even during that time of 300 years, they
    were still fighting wars, only on a smaller and more defined scale. Even as
    late as the mid 1500's, was only the last Muslim strongholds defeated in
    Spain! That is how persistent the Muslims were!

    Now, I am sure more than a few of you will disagree with parts of the
    account I have given. That is human nature and I understand that. But
    consider this, generally: We do know for a fact that Islam started in the
    Arabian Peninsula after 620AD, and by 1000AD it had spread to vast regions,
    from India to Spain, to North Africa, to Turkey, and Central Asia. That is
    in a time period of less than 400 years. And we know more lands were
    conquered by Muslims after that.

    Now after all this writing, the ONLY point I have been trying to make is
    this: Islam has been a religion of constant and consistent warfare. It is a
    war machine that never ever quits! Even in defeat in battle, it is looking
    forward, for its' next Holy Jihad! It is efficient and it is ruthless! It
    takes no prisoners! Either you convert to Islam or you are killed!
    Everywhere that Islam has maintained control of those lands listed above, NO
    other religion is allowed to openly exist, IF AT ALL! Near the end of my
    article I will list some websites for you to go, and read for yourself, why
    this is so, according to the Koran, Q'uran and other Islamic Books and
    writings. Plus I will shortly give you some simple specific quotes and
    references to get you started.

    To save time I will skip from the mid 1500's to the 20 and 21st centuries,
    giving you the reader the benefit of the doubt, here, and times involved.
    This because Islam's spread did slow down during this time, to its slowest
    rate since its' inception. The Crusades had managed to drain Islam of its
    ability to wage all out warfare.

    After WWII Islam started making a comeback from its' low point since its
    inception. Islam started to spread again, and under many new guises and
    pretenses. I won't go into the details, but we know that new forms of
    terrorism evolved with Islam. Islam also began to spread in the name of
    peace for the first time. That it was some kind of peaceful religion, and
    modern humanistic philosophy was all the more willing to embrace it. (Plus
    the mystic effect was of great benefit in fostering new interested and
    curious people, who seen Islam as something unique and different during the
    early 1950's. ) Not that the Islamic teaching of peace was new, but rather
    the way Islam applied this teaching to Western Society. Islam took the
    approach of implying its' peaceful nature also included many peoples. More
    specifically targeted at Christians and Catholics to divert any negative
    rebuttals from hard line Christians and Catholics. .

    So actually we now have Islam spreading by the calling of peace as well as
    by practicing terrorism, and by most of all, what is called the Holy
    Jihad's. The rebirth of Israel helped foster this more than anything, but it
    was only a catalyst to re-ignite the age old calls for more Holy Jihads.
    This teaching had never died, nor had there even been a redefinition of the
    term. It was just conditions and timings had not previously permitted wide
    ranging calls for Holy Jihads, nor was their any unifying rallying point.
    Israel solved all this. It gave Islam a shot in the arm to reignite its'
    warring traditions.

    Islam has now spread to the Philippines, and it is now in the process of
    cleansing the country of all other religions, including Christianity and
    Catholicism. It has taken over the Southeast Asian country of Indonesia, the
    world's third most populated country, with a population of over 1 billion
    people. Several countries, south bordering Russia, and in China Islam is now
    clashing with the government as well as Buddhism. In Sudan, Africa, the
    country is a staging point for attacks in all African countries below it,
    and oddly this is occuring while Muslims are still in the process of
    eliminating the rest of the Christians and other religions in Southern
    Sudan. In England today, there are more Islamic Mosques than Christian or
    Catholic Churches. Today Islam has a following of anywhere from 1 billion to
    1.2 billion people, according to which ever report one wishes to believe.
    Whatever the actual number, Islam is the world's single biggest religion,
    all things considered.

    The only point I wanted to make from all of the above is this: Islam has not
    changed it doctrines concerning conquests of territories or the annihlation
    of all other religions! Only the methods have been improved!

    The above is a very/extremely brief synopsis of Islamic history. But it is
    factual. You can reprove and verify any of the above by reading most any
    conventional Western History book. Now I want you the reader to answer a few
    questions, to yourself: Concerning ALL you have read above; What do you
    think is the current philosophy and doctrines of Islam? What does the past
    intent of Islam tell you about its' current plans for the future? What
    direction is Islam headed, concerning its' ambitions and goals? What would
    the religion attempt to do to achieve those goals; Whatever you the reader
    may think those goals are; Does Islam look to be the peaceful religion it
    claims to you to be? Should ANYTHING be done in regards to Islam, in regards
    to your conclusions?

    With that out of the way, phew; Tough calls isn't it? Maybe not?

    Just What Does Islam Stand For, and Want?

    Major problems with Western Society today concerning Islam, are: Do not we
    as a civilized and so called free society, owe Muslims the right to practice
    their religion in our country? Aren't we supposed to grant freedoms to ALL?
    Does not Western Society see Islam as a peaceful religion, and it having
    peaceful people? Does not Islam teach peace? Or does Islam teach war? What
    about gods; Does Islam worship the same god as Christianity and Catholicism?
    And what is the difference between moderate, fundlementalist and radical
    Muslims? I hate to say it, but even the above average American has not the
    foggiest idea! Maybe I should say understandings.

    Consider these things in regards to the above: Muslims from Islamic
    countries are free to enjoy the freedoms of Western Society; But what
    freedoms would we enjoy in an Islamic Society? Should any religion be
    tolerated or allowed that promotes violence? (What I mean here, is that the
    whole Islamic religion actually teaches violence towards any other culture
    or religion, except its' own! It is INTOLERANT of anything but itself, and
    it even fights among itself to maintain as radical a philosophy as possible!
    I can say this because Islam's philosophy teaches it, and its' past history
    proves it! ) How can ANY religion be proclaimed peaceful, when it is
    constantly at war, and constantly calling for Holy Jihads? (Does not Islam's
    past history prove this also? And does not Islam teach this also?) The
    clerics of Islam loves to state how Christians, Catholics, and Jews ALL
    share the same the god. Now you tell me; Since Islam rejects Jesus Christ as
    being God; How is their god, my GOD? (But they do claim that Christ is a
    prophet and is coming to earth again. Makes their sham sound better. Muslims
    also get around Koran contradictions by simply stating that the Holy Bible
    we know has been corrupted.)

    About the different sects and lines of Islam: Considering the fact that even
    the most moderate of Islamic sects is very radical to Western thoughts,
    ideals and philosophy; What would that make fundlementalist and radical
    Muslim sects to us? (Meaning, all of Islam is radical by Western standards,
    all standards! And calling a Muslim radical is really only a worse degree of
    a moderate Mulsim! Again the philosphy, doctrines, history and people of
    Islam itself proves this. It is like calling the kettle black, but stating
    the kettle as being black, or very black, or super black or dark black.)

    Below are excerpts from the Koran, the Islamic Holy Book, and quotes from
    Islamic leaders. I have verified the quotes as authentic. They do exist. As
    for the context of the writtings out of the Muslim Holy Book; I'll let you
    judge for yourself, but I find it close enough to be accurate on all
    accounts. But then again, so do the Muslims if it suits their purposes.
    -- Michael Lamb

    Quran: (Muslim Holy Book with Koran)

    [4.56] (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make
    them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change
    them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is
    Mighty, Wise."

    [22:19-22] But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out
    for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their heads. Whereby that which
    is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are
    hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from
    thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the
    doom of burning.

    [8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make
    firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who
    disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip
    of them.

    "Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country.
    Wherever you meet them, kill them. Wherever you are, kill those Americans
    who are like them."
    - Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, member of the Palestinian Fatwa Council

    "Kill a settler every day.... Shoot at settlers everywhere.... Woe to you if
    you let them reach their homes safely or travel safely on the roads.... I
    want you to kill as many settlers as possible.... Do not pay attention to
    what I say to the media, the television or public appearances. Pay attention
    only to the written instructions that you receive from me."
    - Yasser Arafat, addressing his people at a public event, July 2001

    "I am ready to kill for the sake of my cause; wouldn't I lie for it?"
    - Yasser Arafat

    Quran:

    [58:5] Those who resist Allah and His Messenger will be crumbled to dust, as
    were those before them: for we have already sent down Clear Signs and the
    Unbelievers will have a humiliating Penalty

    Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4366: It has been narrated by 'Umar b.
    al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say:
    I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not
    leave any but Muslim.

    Sahih Muslim The Book of Faith (Kitab Al-Iman) Book 001, Number 0033: It has
    been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of
    Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify
    that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and
    they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and
    property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by
    law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

    [9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor
    do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the
    religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay
    the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of
    subjection.

    [9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to
    you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who
    guard (against evil).

    [4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's
    life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he
    slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.

    [9:5] But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans
    wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for
    them in every stratagem

    Quran: [5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for
    friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them
    for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the
    unjust people.

    Terrorism is a logical outcome of putting the Qur'an into practice.

    The Qur'an promotes permanent struggle against non-Muslims - or at least
    until non-Muslims are converted to Islam, subjected to Islamic authority, or
    killed. Below is a listing of relevant verses in the Qur'an.

    Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them.

    (Q. 2:191), to murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123), slay them
    (Q.9: 5), fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 ) even if they are Christians and Jews,
    humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax(Q. 9: 29).

    It orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion
    except Islam is left (Q. 2: 193).

    It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water
    (Q. 14: 17).

    It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the
    unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they
    shall have a great punishment in world hereafter (Q.5: 34).

    As for the disbelievers, it says that for them garments of fire shall be cut
    and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is
    in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with
    hooked iron rods (Q. 22: 9).

    Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tells clearly
    that no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q.3: 85).

    It relegates those who disbelieve in Quran to hell (Q. 5:11), calls them
    najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q. 9: 28).

    Quran prohibits a Muslim to befriend a non-believer even if that
    non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (Q. 9: 23), (Q. 3:
    28).

    Quran asks the Muslims to strive against the unbelievers with great endeavor
    (Q. 25: 52), be stern with them because they belong to hell (Q. 66: 9).

    The holy Prophet demanded his follower to strike off the heads of the
    disbelievers then after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up
    the remaining captives (Q. 47: 4).

    As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their
    husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (Q.
    4:34).

    It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their
    husbands (Q. 66:10).

    It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (Q. 2:228).

    It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (Q.
    4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness
    is not admissible in the court (Q. 2:282).

    This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can
    produce a male witness. Muhammad allowed the Muslims to marry up to four
    views and gave them license to sleep with their slave maids and as many
    captive women as they may have (Q. 4:3). He himself did just that. This is
    why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them * and
    allow themselves to rape their women.

    Pakistani soldiers raped up to 250,000 Bangali women in 1971 after they
    massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed
    that Bangladeshis are unislamic. This is why the prison guards in Islamic
    regime of Iran rape the women and then kill them after calling them
    apostates and the enemies of Allah.

    Islam promises hell to non-Muslims 3:85, 4:56, 5:37, 5:72, 8:55, 9:28,15:2,
    21:98-100, 22:19-22, 22:56-57, 25:17-19, 25:55, 29:53-55 31:13, 6:9,
    68:10-13, 72:14- 15,

    Islam warms against mixing with non-Muslims 2:21, 3:28, 3:118, 5:51, 5:144,
    9:7, 9:28, 58:23, 60:4.

    Islam calls on Muslims to wage war against non-Muslims 2:191, 2:193,4:66,
    4:84, 5:33, 8:12, 8:15-18, 8:39, 8:59-60,8:65, 9:2-3, 9:5, 9:14,9:29, 9:39,
    9:73, 9:111, 9:123, 25:52, 37:22-23, 47:4-5, 48:29,69:30-37.

    Islam encourages the war against the non-Muslims by glorifying it 2:216,
    9:41, 49:15, or by promising lust in paradise to the Shaheeds who die in
    such a war 3:142, 3:157-158, 9:20--21.

    One of the most important theme in the Qur'an, perhaps an indication of the
    preoccupation in Muhammad's mind is that ofimagery of hell and the
    punishment for the unbelievers.

    This is indicated by the huge number of Qur'anic references: al-Baqarah
    2:24,119,161,166,201; Al-Imran:10,12,116,131,151,162,192; an-Nisa'
    4:55-56,93,97,114,121,169; al-Ma'idah 5:10,37,72,86; al-An`am
    6:27,70,128-129, al-A`raf 7:18,36,38,41,50,179; al-Anfal 8:16,36,50;
    at-Taubah 9:17,35,49,63,68,73,81,95,109,113; Yunus 10:8,27, Hud
    11:16-17,98,106,113,119; ar-Ra`d 13:5,18,35; Ibrahim 14:16,49; al-Hijr
    15:43; an-Nahl 16:29,62; bani Isra'il 17:8,18,39,63,97; al-Kahf
    18:29,53,100,106; Maryam 19:68,70,86; Ta Ha 20:74, al-Anbiya' 21:39,98;
    al-Hajj 22:4,9,19-22,51,72; al-Mu'minun 23:103-104; an-Nur 24:57; al-Furqan
    25:11-13,34,65; ash-Shu`ara' 26:91,94; an-Naml 27:90; al-Qasas 28:41;
    al-`Ankabut 29:25,54,68, Luqman 31:21; as-Sajdah 32:13,20; al-Ahzab
    33:64,66; Saba' 34:12,42; al-Fatir 35:6,36; Ya Sin 36:63; as-Saffat
    37:10,23,55,63,68,163; Sad 38:27,56, Sad 38:59,61,64,85; az-Zumar
    39:8,16,19,32,60,71-72; al-Mu'min 40:6-7,41,43,46-47,49,60,72,76, Ha Mim
    Sajdah 41:19,24,28,40; ash-Shura 42:7; az-Zukhruf 43:74; ad-Dukhan 44:47,56;
    al-Jathiyah 45:10,34-35; al-Ahqaf 46:20,34; Muhammad 47:12,15; al-Fath
    48:6,13, Qaf 50:24; adh-Dhariyat 51:13; at-Tur 52:13-16,18; al-Qamar 54:48;
    ar-Rahman 55:43; al-Waqi`ah 56:94; al-Hadid 57:15,19; al-Mujadilah 58:8,17;
    al-Hashr 59:3,17,20, , as-Saff 61:41; at-Taghabun 64:10; at-Tahrim
    66:6,9-10; al-Mulk 67:5-10; al-Haqqah 69:31; al-Ma`arij 70:15, Nuh 71:25;
    al-Jinn 72:15,23; al-Muzammil 73:12-13; al-Mudathir 74:26-31,42; ad-Dahr
    76:4; al-Mursalat 77:31; an-Naba' 78:21; an-Nazi`at 79:36,39, at-Takwir
    81:12; al-Infitar 82:14; at-Tatfif 83:16; al-Inshiqaq 84:12; al-Buruj 85:10;
    al-A`la 87:12; al-Ghashiyah 88:4; al-Fajr 89:23; al-Balad 90:20, al-Layl
    92:14; al-Bayyinah 98:6; al-Qari`ah 101:9-11; at-Takathur 102:6; al-Humazah
    104:6-9; al-Lahab 111:3

    99.9% of humans will be in hell. Sahih Bukhari 004.055.567

    "I will not forget this wound to our country, or those who inflicted it. I
    will not yield. I will not rest. I will not relent in waging this struggle
    for the freedom and security of the American people."
    - President George Bush, September, 2001
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  • tallcharlietallcharlie Member Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    "The numbers are quite low and it is unlikely that the Nazi Muslim you know personally is all that different from you, much less plotting mass murder. A person's political affiliation nominal religion is not grounds for thinking a certain way about them or for reaching conclusions that are based on anything other than their own words or deeds."
    Indeed, many Nazis went right along with Hitler and his gang simply because they would have been shunned and have lost their Nazi Party perks if they had opposed him. While these "good" Nazis didn't, in their own words, state that they were planning to go out and murder an entire race, they did give lip service to the goals of the party. Years later, though, they were right there to help gas Jews when the time came for them to put up or shut up. Even the best of the "good" Nazis sat quietly by and let the others commit genocide while they said nothing.

    Similarly, many Muslims go right along with the imams and sheikhs and other Islamic hierarchy simply because they would be shunned by other Muslims if they opposed the accepted dogma of Islam. But you can bet that if push came to shove, they would be right there fighting alongside the jihadis against their non-Muslim neighbors, or maybe just standing silent while a Muslim fundamentalist beheads a Christian with a dull bayonet.

    Sorry, Barzillia, but history has shown, over and over, that people will go along to extremes with their group be it religious, political, criminal, racist, or even just a college fraternity.
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  • tallcharlietallcharlie Member Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    Whether you would win that bet or not, it is the same argument that Jonah made.

    Unsuccessfully.

    You may not share in the instructions given to the Church, but you are still most certainly called to the truth.


    Grace may be free to us, but it was not to God.

    And it is never cheap.
    I doubt very much if your nonsense means anything to people whose religion tells them that cutting your throat will assure them a place in heaven.
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  • tallcharlietallcharlie Member Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Barzillia, the more I think about what you've posted here, the surer I am that you are totally, bat-sht insane. Comparing Islam to a few sinners in Nineva is the fantasy of a lunatic.

    Do you really think that God is going to provide supernatural help, a latter day whale, for non-Muslims to hide in while the violent Muhammadans are going through some kind of enlightenment?

    Do you really think that all rest of the world has to do is send missionaries - Jonahs - to the Caliphate to preach the word of God? That's been tried and found to be ineffective; Muslims simply kill the missionaries. No matter what we preach to Muslims, they still try to kill us. You see, they are convinced that they already possess the word of God and that word is, "Kill the infidels!"

    Jonah did not think it possible to make the Ninevites repent, so he beat feet for other parts. God stepped in and convinced him otherwise, and sure enough, Jonah was able to preach moderation to the Ninevites.

    You think that's the argument I'm making, that they won't repent, and that God will step in and bring about a similar reversal with the Muslims?

    That they are all going to see the error of their ways before long?

    Hell, they've been trying to kill us for 1300 years now; what makes you think they're ready to change? That they ever will be ready to change?

    Bruce posted, "Islam is a self inflicted mental illness masquerading as a religion."

    Your idea is barking-mad crazy masquerading as religious zealotry... just like Islam, I might add.
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  • tallcharlietallcharlie Member Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    quote:Originally posted by tallcharlie
    Barzillia, the more I think about what you've posted here, the surer I am that you are totally, bat-sht insane. Comparing Islam to a few sinners in Nineva is the fantasy of a lunatic.

    Do you really think that God is going to provide supernatural help, a latter day whale, for non-Muslims to hide in while the violent Muhammadans are going through some kind of enlightenment?

    Do you really think that all rest of the world has to do is send missionaries - Jonahs - to the Caliphate to preach the word of God? That's been tried and found to be ineffective; Muslims simply kill the missionaries. No matter what we preach to Muslims, they still try to kill us. You see, they are convinced that they already possess the word of God and that word is, "Kill the infidels!"

    Jonah did not think it possible to make the Ninevites repent, so he beat feet for other parts. God stepped in and convinced him otherwise, and sure enough, Jonah was able to preach moderation to the Ninevites.

    You think that's the argument I'm making, that they won't repent, and that God will step in and bring about a similar reversal with the Muslims?

    That they are all going to see the error of their ways before long?

    Hell, they've been trying to kill us for 1300 years now; what makes you think they're ready to change? That they ever will be ready to change?

    Bruce posted, "Islam is a self inflicted mental illness masquerading as a religion."

    Your idea is barking-mad crazy masquerading as religious zealotry... just like Islam, I might add.


    Precisely, tallcharlie.

    Exactamundo.

    That is exactly the point.

    Non-believers will turn on anybody.
    Where did I write anything about non-believers?

    Muslims are the ultimate believers. Almost as bad as you.quote:
    The hate is not why they are sinners.

    They are in rebellion, and therefore they hate.

    Indiscriminately.

    Incontinently.




    And btw, you apparently have no clue, once again, about scripture.It's been many years since I studied Jonah in Sunday school. Forgive me, oh great one, if I got one little nuance wrong.quote:

    Jonah fled his mission to Ninevah because he knew God would save them, if he preached and they repented.

    He hated them (they were Assyrians, after all) for what they had done to the Northern kingdom.

    It may not mean much to you, but Jonah's call is the same reason the Church is still here today.

    Your response was, ultimately, fascinating.

    I really do learn a lot from these forums.

    And it should be a lesson for all believers.
    You are still bat-sht insane.
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  • Rack OpsRack Ops Member Posts: 18,596 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    So, Bar...when can we expect you to leave for the Caliphate in order to bring Jesus's message of love and hope to the heathen masses?
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  • MobuckMobuck Member Posts: 14,083 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sure you can. The Muslims have propagated the violence for hundreds of years. Why can't we blame all of them for allowing this violence to continue?
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  • tallcharlietallcharlie Member Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    quote:Originally posted by Mobuck
    Sure you can. The Muslims have propagated the violence for hundreds of years. Why can't we blame all of them for allowing this violence to continue?


    Because it wouldn't be the truth ?
    Okay, if all Muslims are not to blame, name just one Muslim country where goodness, peace, and tolerance are the rule... or even where those qualities are not punished.
    Just one.
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  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,669 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia

    I would much rather send a couple of hours of scriptural teaching and an Arabic New Testament to a family in their home.


    Very magnanimous of you; please start immediately. I suggest you take a box of the Arabic New Testaments to Saudi Arabia and Yemen, in person, so you can spread the good news yourself, answering questions with your vast knowledge of all. I am sure the locals would welcome you with open arms as you delivered the New Testaments to the families.

    Get back to us on how that worked out for you; we will be happy to toss in some money for the printing, travel and airline costs.
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  • tallcharlietallcharlie Member Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    quote:Originally posted by tallcharlie
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    quote:Originally posted by Mobuck
    Sure you can. The Muslims have propagated the violence for hundreds of years. Why can't we blame all of them for allowing this violence to continue?


    Because it wouldn't be the truth ?
    Okay, if all Muslims are not to blame, name just one Muslim country where goodness, peace, and tolerance are the rule... or even where those qualities are not punished.
    Just one.


    That is the logical error of equivocation.

    Countries are not people.

    Do not try to change the argument.
    Just one. Can't do it can you?

    The thing is that while there definitely are "good" Muslims, they are the exception. The normal, bad ones are the rule because they're following the instructions that come with that evil excuse for a religion.

    Now name just one tolerant Muslim country.
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  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,669 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    I would much rather send a couple of hours of scriptural teaching and an Arabic New Testament to a family in their home.
    THESE ARE YOUR WORDS, NOT MINE

    I will take you at your word that your financial support is now promised.

    Or, alternatively, are you suggesting that you will now take full moral responsibility for every 20 mm round fired into homes ?

    Why try to place a burden on me that you yourself will not shoulder ?


    Financial assistance is indeed promised to help defray the costs for your airfare and the printing of the Arabic New Testaments you take and distribute in Saudi Arabia and Yemen.

    I already have, I pay for the ammo and morally support the United States Armed Forces personnel that are ordered to fire the weapons in combat.

    The burden IS YOURS and yours alone; I did not state my "rathers".
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  • tallcharlietallcharlie Member Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    The reason equivocation is a logical error is clearly demonstrated here.

    When one equates the personal responsibility of individuals for their actions, with the responsibility a population has for what a non-representative and non-democratically elected government (and commonly unpopular)does, there is not much of a case to be made for the equivalence.

    Otherwise, you are responsible for all the misdeeds of all of the US administrations for the last 50 years, charlie.

    So far I haven't seen you cop to those charges.

    Stand right up, if you want others to do so.
    Well, I do oppose the government and its actions in many cases. I vote. I write to my congressmen. I support my party. Many Americans do as much. Even Muslim Americans do so. But most Iranian Muslims do not, and neither do the great majority of Muslims in all the other Muslim countries. That's because if they do their religion will kill them.

    Islam is self-curing. Any time an individual Muslim achieves "good" status, the body politic of the rest of them, the, "bad" (a.k.a. normal) Muslims eliminates them.

    And if I go to Iran, Yemen, Sudan, or any other Muslim country, they will hold me responsible for the actions of the US and all Christians for the last ten centuries or so...if they get their hands on me. So what is so wrong if I do the same and hold them responsible for the acts of their religion?

    So name one good Muslim country. We are waiting for your answer.

    Just one is all it will take to prove me wrong.

    In the meantime, you can keep the rest of your bullsht to yourself.
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  • tallcharlietallcharlie Member Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    The Ugly American.
    Not a Muslim country. Try again.
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  • tallcharlietallcharlie Member Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Barzillia, since the book The Ugly American was predicated on the failure of the Americans to understand and appreciate the local culture, I am assuming that you are hinting that I/we simply don't understand Muslims and their culture.
    Frankly, I have no desire to understand their motives for murder, rape, slavery, pedophilia, and intolerance. You are welcome to that field of study. While you're at it, you can justify the Japanese atrocities of WWII, the Turkish genocide of the Armenians, and the Holocaust.
    I have no idea what you are trying to say with your Bible quotation.
    Perhaps you could be a little less obscure, but that would make it harder for you to claim that I don't know what I am talking about if I miss your cryptic meanings.
    We are still waiting for you to find a "good" Muslim country.
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  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,669 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have made a pledge to help pay for Barzillia's airfare to Saudi Arabia and Yemen so he can distribute Arabic New Testaments to the people there. You would think one that displays suck piety as our esteemed fellow forum member would jump at the opportunity to spread the good word in those two countries.

    My pledge stands, it is; $400.00 for airfare and travel expenses and another $100.00 to help defray the cost of the Arabic New Testaments taken with him on the trip. Of course I will need to see receipts for the tickets and a passport stamped with the aforementioned two countries customs stamps after his return. Payment will be made by postal Money order after he gets back to the USA from his short educational sabbatical to the Middle East Muslim State centers of peace and tolerance.

    Anyone else want to toss in a few bucks for this trip?
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  • Ford 23Ford 23 Member Posts: 3,129
    edited November -1
    bpost---Count me in. I guarantee the 400 plus an additional 200.

    There is one condition on payment the head has to be attached to the returning body or it is a no go
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  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,669 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    quote:Originally posted by bpost

    I have made a pledge to help pay for Barzillia's airfare to Saudi Arabia and Yemen so he can distribute Arabic New Testaments to the people there. You would think one that displays suck piety as our esteemed fellow forum member would jump at the opportunity to spread the good word in those two countries.

    My pledge stands, it is; $400.00 for airfare and travel expenses and another $100.00 to help defray the cost of the Arabic New Testaments taken with him on the trip. Of course I will need to see receipts for the tickets and a passport stamped with the aforementioned two countries customs stamps after his return. Payment will be made by postal Money order after he gets back to the USA from his short educational sabbatical to the Middle East Muslim State centers of peace and tolerance.

    Anyone else want to toss in a few bucks for this trip?




    Well, that's a mature response.

    And very poor stewardship.


    These are your words::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    Originally posted by Barzillia
    {quote}I would much rather send a couple of hours of scriptural teaching and an Arabic New Testament to a family in their home.
    THESE ARE YOUR WORDS, NOT MINE

    I am humbly trying to facilitate your trip so you can teach the Islamist there, in the comfort of their own homes or tents. It is much less costly to send you to Saudi Arabia and Yemen with your fresh box of Arabic New Testaments then it is to fly a few hundred families here for your ministering.

    What, pray tell, could you possibly misconstrue about my offer of assistance for your trip?
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  • tallcharlietallcharlie Member Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Barzillia, what I am trying to do is guess at what you are communicating with your obscure and mealy-mouthed posts. As I noted, you seem to make a habit of posting ambiguous nonsense that you later interpret with a meaning different from whatever your reader understands.
    Therefore, no matter how stupid your position, you can disavow it and claim you meant something else.

    My contention is that Muslims, as a group and individually, behave as they wish and then justify their actions with the words of their "holy" writings. In other words, they are following the instructions found in the users' manual for Islam.

    And that users' manual tells them to kill, enslave, conquer, and commit the most heinous crimes in the name of their god and his, well, dubious prophet.

    All Muslims are tainted with this connection... association...allegiance with the evil contained in that users' manual. For them it is the basis of their faith.

    A church built on sand cannot stand. A faith built on evil cannot be good.
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  • tallcharlietallcharlie Member Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    quote:Originally posted by us55840
    Some may believe this is harsh, but for everything I have seen thus far, it appears clear that Islam is EVIL!


    Not the argument.
    But it is. The subject is generalizing about Islam, and that's exactly what us55840 did.
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  • tallcharlietallcharlie Member Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    quote:Originally posted by tallcharlie
    Barzillia, what I am trying to do is guess at what you are communicating with your obscure and mealy-mouthed posts. As I noted, you seem to make a habit of posting ambiguous nonsense that you later interpret with a meaning different from whatever your reader understands.
    Therefore, no matter how stupid your position, you can disavow it and claim you meant something else.

    My contention is that Muslims, as a group and individually, behave as they wish and then justify their actions with the words of their "holy" writings. In other words, they are following the instructions found in the users' manual for Islam.

    And that users' manual tells them to kill, enslave, conquer, and commit the most heinous crimes in the name of their god and his, well, dubious prophet.

    All Muslims are tainted with this connection... association...allegiance with the evil contained in that users' manual. For them it is the basis of their faith.

    A church built on sand cannot stand. A faith built on evil cannot be good.


    Apparently then, that's the best you can do.

    Your half-informed (or less) ideas do not serve you very well.

    You can call me what you will, it is nothing new, but it does not excuse you.

    The argument was never whether Islam is error.

    My initial remarks were that you are in error.

    And you have done nothing but consistently demonstrate that was, and continues to be, the case.

    I have never met a Muslim in the last 30 or more years, who abused me the way that you have, during simple discussions in this forum the last few years.

    I am not crying about it, I am just saying out that you determine the kind of person you are.

    Just like Muslims do.

    Maybe you can understand that.


    Not the argument.
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  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,669 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    A radical and a moderate Muslim (stolen material)

    A radical Muslim wants to behead you for being an infidel non Muslim or even looking cross-eyed at a picture of their pedophile Prophet.

    A moderate Muslim wants the radical to behead you too as he smiles and jokes with you and yours.

    QUESTION::::::::::::::

    Why call it beheading when in fact it is deheading? Just wondering.
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  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,669 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia


    Feigned ignorance is neither the mark of an honest, nor adult, conversation.

    If this is the best you can do, why bother ?


    Your pompous piety is noted and well documented here as well as your pontifical verbosity in deflecting.
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  • tallcharlietallcharlie Member Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    Yes, it was.

    "I was pointing out that whether Islam or Christianity, it is a mistaken notion to characterize the many based upon the acts of a few, especially when the few may be misappropriating the name.

    There are hundreds of groups calling themselves "Christian", that are obviously not such, as well.

    They are both examples, I guess, of what I suggest is the case, and what I am comparing are the errors people make in the same fashion with both."You can, indeed, characterize the "many" by the actions of the "few" in the case of Islam. Why? Because whenever the violent, evil "few" commit one of their atrocities, they justify it by pointing to the Muslim holy texts and claiming, "God told me to do it."

    "I'm just following God's instructions."

    "It's what Muhammad would do [pbuh]."

    And guess what? Their claims are true. The Muslims holy texts do instruct the faithful to kill in the name of Allah.

    And the so-called "few" always do that, unless they've blown themselves into a million pieces before they can shout, "Allah Akbar!"

    When one of your "many" decides to join the "few", he or she will then point to the holy texts and claim he is only doing the will of Allah.

    Muslims believe that everything is maktub [lit.: written] and so whatever it is one wishes to do, will only occur if it is within God's plan.

    According to an opinion poll conducted in Turkey by the Metropoll research company last month, 56 percent agreed that Charlie Hebdo (which published the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad) had insulted the Prophet, but said it was wrong for them to be killed. However, 20 percent of respondents said they had "got what they deserved" for insulting the Prophet. Only 16 percent said the Charlie Hebdo killings were an attack on freedom of expression.

    That's what you are describing as "few"? That was in Turkey, which is probably the most tolerant of all Muslim countries. Good luck with the rest of the Muslim world.

    Now as to your evil Christians, no matter how hard they try, they cannot point to any of the teachings of Jesus Christ and claim that He commanded them to violence.

    Evil Christians are evil; evil Muslims are doing the work of their God. Therein lies the essential difference.
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  • tallcharlietallcharlie Member Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Was that from the New Testament, or the words of a 60s entertainer? Find me a verse that instructs Christians to kill those who do not believe in Jesus Christ.

    You, Barzillia, know exactly what I meant in my previous post, yet you chose to deliberately ignore it and trot out that trite old indictment of Christians that do evil.

    If you or I try to do good, we will be following the instructions of our Savior. When we do evil, we are denying Him, and disobeying Him.

    When Muslims do evil, they are in many cases doing what their prophet and god have instructed them to do.
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  • tallcharlietallcharlie Member Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    No, charlie.

    I do not "trot out" any old indictment against Christians.

    I exemplified the point that anybody can ostensibly claim that any group is one thing or another, with or without being correct.

    As I have previously identified in this thread, and others in this forum over the past seven years, Islam is most certainly error.

    If you cannot grasp that, well, what can I say that has not already been said ? How about I don't care what you have said about Islam? That is irrelevant to the current discussion.quote:

    You are too busy objectifying others as objects of hate and derision, in order to justify your desires for their end, to see, I guess.

    And you do not have the background to go any further in discussing scripture, as far as I can tell. Any time I get something wrong, feel free to correct me, but if you think you can forbid me from discussing the Bible, you are sorely mistaken.quote:

    Whether I quote Bob Dylan or not is immaterial, as He can cause even the heathen to serve his will and purpose.

    That is a hint, by the way.

    Assyrian or ISIL, it makes no difference.


    So, thanks for your time.
    The point is - and you insist on ignoring it - only Islam is based on "holy" texts that demand the murder of those that disagree with its beliefs.

    So find me a verse from the New Testament that orders Christians to murder non-Christians.
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  • tallcharlietallcharlie Member Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia

    The New Testament is not the sum total of my bible, tallcharlie.No, but you won't find much about Christianity in the Old Testament.quote:And no one is forbidding you to do anything.Oh, really? When you wrote, "And you do not have the background to go any further in discussing scripture, as far as I can tell," What exactly were you doing?quote:I am declining your offer to discuss scripture.Ah! So that's what you're doing.

    It was not an offer, Barzillia. It was a challenge that you have now run away from twice.quote:For the reasons already stated.Yeah, right. You cannot cite a verse from the New Testament that tells Christians to go kill non-Christians, so you, as usual, try to blame your failure on me.

    What a guy!
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  • tallcharlietallcharlie Member Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    Very interesting.

    I decline to discuss scripture with you, and that is the same as telling you not to post.

    Right.

    Yet, you demand that I answer to your specifications, and complain when I do not do as you require.

    Amazing.Demand? No, challenge.quote:However, you have raised one interesting issue, and I will indulge you in this one point.

    And let's see if you will answer my questions.

    You say that the New Testament does not instruct believers to kill non-believers.

    Rightly said.

    Is such killing then, prohibited?That depends on how you interpret Matthew 5:44 and 5:48. Some hold that enemy and guilty are two different things in the eyes of God.
    There is also the consideration of the new covenant with God that, I presume, supersedes the covenant of the Old Testament. The new covenant was foretold in the Old Testament, as I recall, but I don't remember exactly where.
    But the New Testament also recognizes that we really cannot keep the laws of the Old Testament, and that our only sure way to salvation is through Jesus Christ our savior (and not Barack Obama, our ruination).quote:I had already suggested what I thought the proper approach by the Church should be, but people found no delay in falling over themselves mocking the one clear duty of the Church identified in this matter.Restate it. I am sorry, but I do not keep a log of your pronouncements.quote:

    And is there any precedent in scripture for killing non-believers on the basis of their unbelief?Do you consider the prohibition against fortune tellers as non-believers?quote:If so, what is the authority for abrogating any prior precedents?The new covenant.quote:Does the New Testament indicate that non-believers are or will be killed by anybody, as a result of their non-belief, going forward?

    If so, then by whom ?Paul, in Romans. He condemned idolators, sodomites, homsexuals, and a whole list of other sinners. Paul said they deserved death, but I don't recall him saying who is supposed to bring about those deaths.quote:You see, I hope, that trying to justify your approach by relying upon what is not written is an absurd way to come to any conclusion.

    Christianity is nothing if not about a person, and Christ is found in all the scripture.

    And [Jesus] beginning with Moses and all the prophets, .... explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. (Luke 24:27).

    He should have known..since He, the Logos, did the writing, as He was the Word.

    An estimated 1600 OT verses or references are found in the New Testament.

    The Christ directly quoted from or referenced multiple OT books, and is the substance of the symbols contained there. he was, after all, referred to as a Rabbi.

    The Church was born before the NT was ever written.

    [Jesus] said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that was written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms. Luke 24:44.

    While people today neatly partition the Bible into Old and New Testaments, Christ and His disciples did not.Well, of course not. There was no New Testament when Christ walked the Earth. Like the Qur'an and Muhammad, which you know.quote: "The Scriptures" to them were what people now call the Old Testament writings. When Paul urged Timothy to be "diligent to present yourself approved to God. rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Timothy:2:15), that "word" was the Old Testament.

    Later in the same book, Paul reminded Timothy, "From childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy:3:15-16). Again, his references to Scripture meant the Old Testament.Since there was not, at that time, a New Testament.quote:Matthew:4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

    For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. Romans 15:14

    Matt 5:"17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."Barzillia, I am not a professional Bible thumper like you, but I do try to recall my training in Christianity. I have not tried to look-up any particular Bible verses, but am rather relying on memory from lessons from long ago.

    Feel free, then, to correct any errors or supply any details I may have missed.
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  • tallcharlietallcharlie Member Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    I think you need more than a quick Google or Wiki to reasonably discuss the issues.Barzillia, I attended a Presbyterian elementary school for the first six years, parochial school for a couple, attended Sunday school and VBS until college, and at one point considered the seminary. However, that was over fifty years ago, so of course I cannot compete with your knowledge of the Bible as you have so ably shown.

    By doing that you have demonstrated that you have no idea of what the discussion is here. You've diverted it to your area of expertise, but, at the same time lost sight of the target.

    I was not discussing the entire New Testament, Old Testament, and all of the interactions between the two. I was making the point, clearly I thought, that Muhammad and the Qur'an instructs its faithful to kill, rape, torture, enslave, etc. those who do not believe as they do. By contrast, Christianity, the New Testament, does not instruct Christians to harm non-Christians.

    All you have done with your Bible test, is to muddy the waters somewhat, and attempt to humiliate me, which you have failed to do. I knew when I took your test that there was no way in heaven or hell that I could satisfy your pompous and conceited Pharisee mind.

    You have also failed to prove - or even discuss a valid reason - why the entirety of Muhammadanism cannot be judged by the actions of the violent fundamentalists. All you have done in that regard is to repeat, over and over, that it cannot be done.quote:But to be fair, it is not just your failing, it is the problem all non-believers have.Well, you did not disappoint me. I've always considered you a pompous *, and you've have only reinforced that assessment. Yours is the typical attitude of a religious zealot: if one does not believe exactly the way you do, one is not a believer.

    Here are the facts: out of approximately 1,000,000,000 Muslims, somewhere around 100,000 to 200,000 have committed or are now engaged in committing acts of terrorism motivated by religion. If you include all the active members of all the recognized[/i]Islamic terror organizations (Hamas, Hezbollah, al Qaeda, ISIS/ISIL, etc.), that number would easily surpass 1,000,000. Therefore, the failure rate varies between 1:10,000 and 1:1000, with the probability shading towards the highest proportion.

    Looking at Christians, who number slightly more than Muhammadans, you might be able to find a hundred religious terrorists. More likely less, you could probably count them on one hand.

    Many people - Barack Hussein Obama being one of them - point to all violent acts by Christians and compare them directly to Islamic violence. The obvious error there is that while nearly all violence by Muhammadans is motivated, guided, and justified by the words of Muhammad as reported in the Islamic holy texts, none of the violence by Christians can be attributed to any teaching of Jesus Christ. Indeed, violence by Christians is in direct opposition to those teachings.

    So my assertion stands and is proven by facts as well as your display of hubris: Islam instructs Muslims to kill non-believers; Christianity does not instruct Christians to kill Muslims or anybody else.
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  • RocklobsterRocklobster Member Posts: 7,060 ✭
    edited November -1
    The Old Testament merely lays the groundwork leading up to the birth of Christ.

    Yashua was the Prince of Peace, Mohammed was the Prince of War.

    There is not a single verse in the New Testament directing believers to kill (or harm in any way) non-believers. In fact, a much-misinterpreted passage directs the believer to "turn the other cheek" when subjected to the angry retort of a non-believer.

    The Koran, on the other hand, contains many verses demanding that non-believers be killed or have their extremities severed.

    As has been previously stated, a small percentage of Muslims perpetrate violence. The rest aid and abet. The ones who publicly condemn the violence do so as a ruse to head off reprisals.

    The individual "benevolent and peaceful" Muslims one may meet from time to time are merely biding their time until their numbers can increase to the point that their mayhem may occur with little chance of unpleasant repurcussions.
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  • tallcharlietallcharlie Member Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Amen
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  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,669 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by tallcharlie
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    I think you need more than a quick Google or Wiki to reasonably discuss the issues.Barzillia, I attended a Presbyterian elementary school for the first six years, parochial school for a couple, attended Sunday school and VBS until college, and at one point considered the seminary. However, that was over fifty years ago, so of course I cannot compete with your knowledge of the Bible as you have so ably shown.

    By doing that you have demonstrated that you have no idea of what the discussion is here. You've diverted it to your area of expertise, but, at the same time lost sight of the target.

    I was not discussing the entire New Testament, Old Testament, and all of the interactions between the two. I was making the point, clearly I thought, that Muhammad and the Qur'an instructs its faithful to kill, rape, torture, enslave, etc. those who do not believe as they do. By contrast, Christianity, the New Testament, does not instruct Christians to harm non-Christians.

    All you have done with your Bible test, is to muddy the waters somewhat, and attempt to humiliate me, which you have failed to do. I knew when I took your test that there was no way in heaven or hell that I could satisfy your pompous and conceited Pharisee mind.

    You have also failed to prove - or even discuss a valid reason - why the entirety of Muhammadanism cannot be judged by the actions of the violent fundamentalists. All you have done in that regard is to repeat, over and over, that it cannot be done.quote:But to be fair, it is not just your failing, it is the problem all non-believers have.Well, you did not disappoint me. I've always considered you a pompous *, and you've have only reinforced that assessment. Yours is the typical attitude of a religious zealot: if one does not believe exactly the way you do, one is not a believer.

    Here are the facts: out of approximately 1,000,000,000 Muslims, somewhere around 100,000 to 200,000 have committed or are now engaged in committing acts of terrorism motivated by religion. If you include all the active members of all the recognized[/i]Islamic terror organizations (Hamas, Hezbollah, al Qaeda, ISIS/ISIL, etc.), that number would easily surpass 1,000,000. Therefore, the failure rate varies between 1:10,000 and 1:1000, with the probability shading towards the highest proportion.

    Looking at Christians, who number slightly more than Muhammadans, you might be able to find a hundred religious terrorists. More likely less, you could probably count them on one hand.

    Many people - Barack Hussein Obama being one of them - point to all violent acts by Christians and compare them directly to Islamic violence. The obvious error there is that while nearly all violence by Muhammadans is motivated, guided, and justified by the words of Muhammad as reported in the Islamic holy texts, none of the violence by Christians can be attributed to any teaching of Jesus Christ. Indeed, violence by Christians is in direct opposition to those teachings.

    So my assertion stands and is proven by facts as well as your display of hubris: Islam instructs Muslims to kill non-believers; Christianity does not instruct Christians to kill Muslims or anybody else.


    Very well said Tallcharlie and quite accurate, all of it.
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  • wifetrainedwifetrained Member Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Time to call it a day on this thread.
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  • Smitty500magSmitty500mag Member Posts: 13,623 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia

    Countries are not people.



    Countries without people are just land masses. It's the people that make countries.
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  • tallcharlietallcharlie Member Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    quote:Originally posted by Smitty500mag
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia

    Countries are not people.



    Countries without people are just land masses. It's the people that make countries.


    No, the presence of people does not make countries. Neither do religions.
    What does it take to make a country, in your opinion?quote:
    But rather than argue, why not then try "States are not people", if it makes the idea more understandable for you.

    Fine by me.
    What do you think is the difference between a country and a state? Just to help me understand what you meant, that is.
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  • tallcharlietallcharlie Member Posts: 673 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    Go back to the thread where the quote was taken from, and read it in context.

    I'm sure you will be able to figure it out.
    Nothing for me to figure out. If you cannot tell me what you mean, too bad.
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