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Healthcare reality
So if not Obamacare what?
A lot of people do not work for a government or a major corporation that provides healthcare benefits at a reasonable cost to the employee.
Many employers large and small, (well before Obamacare) cut out health insurance benefits altogether or shifted so much of the cost to the employee that many dropped the coverage.
This leaves the employee or self employed in a position to pay for healthcare on their own.
How many low to middle income workers are going to pay 8-12 grand a year for a healthcare policy that has a large deductible before it pays?
Most will "roll the dice" and go without Health insurance, especially those without assets that can have a lien placed on them.
So who will pay the cost of the emergency and deferred healthcare?
Tax payers.
We all praise Conservative values but when a person works full time and has no healthcare benefits and gets sick, who is going to pay the possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars incurred?
A law requiring Health insurance or at least the ability to post a bond if you choose not to pay for it makes sense to me.
Why leave someone the "right" to stiff the rest of us?
Unless of course we are going to abolish EMTALA laws and let them die in the streets?
A example of stupidity in my opinion is say a person has an infection, they blow it off due to lack of healthcare, it gets worse and the limb has to be amputated. They can't pay for basic treatment they sure as heck ain't paying for the surgery and now will possibly draw Disability for a lifetime?
What would have been less costly to the tax payer?
What about the guy who worked hard all his life has no health insurance and losses his assets to a huge bill for an illness?
Requiring at least some type of catastrophic insurance would prevent the tax payer from footing the bill for the working class and keep them out of bankruptcy.
And why should workers be covered when we cover the poorest Americans through Medicaid which those same workers helped to fund at least in part?
If you have a better plan please describe it before we completely dismiss all aspects of ACA I suggest we solve some of the issues?
Abolishing EMTALA would work but are we hard hearted enough to live with that?
A lot of people do not work for a government or a major corporation that provides healthcare benefits at a reasonable cost to the employee.
Many employers large and small, (well before Obamacare) cut out health insurance benefits altogether or shifted so much of the cost to the employee that many dropped the coverage.
This leaves the employee or self employed in a position to pay for healthcare on their own.
How many low to middle income workers are going to pay 8-12 grand a year for a healthcare policy that has a large deductible before it pays?
Most will "roll the dice" and go without Health insurance, especially those without assets that can have a lien placed on them.
So who will pay the cost of the emergency and deferred healthcare?
Tax payers.
We all praise Conservative values but when a person works full time and has no healthcare benefits and gets sick, who is going to pay the possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars incurred?
A law requiring Health insurance or at least the ability to post a bond if you choose not to pay for it makes sense to me.
Why leave someone the "right" to stiff the rest of us?
Unless of course we are going to abolish EMTALA laws and let them die in the streets?
A example of stupidity in my opinion is say a person has an infection, they blow it off due to lack of healthcare, it gets worse and the limb has to be amputated. They can't pay for basic treatment they sure as heck ain't paying for the surgery and now will possibly draw Disability for a lifetime?
What would have been less costly to the tax payer?
What about the guy who worked hard all his life has no health insurance and losses his assets to a huge bill for an illness?
Requiring at least some type of catastrophic insurance would prevent the tax payer from footing the bill for the working class and keep them out of bankruptcy.
And why should workers be covered when we cover the poorest Americans through Medicaid which those same workers helped to fund at least in part?
If you have a better plan please describe it before we completely dismiss all aspects of ACA I suggest we solve some of the issues?
Abolishing EMTALA would work but are we hard hearted enough to live with that?
Comments
quote:Originally posted by captnobody
go pedal your stuff somewhere else
In other words they want someone else to pay for their own healthcare.
Obviously not a simple question. I think before it could ever be reasonably answered medical malpractice, and government regulation need to be addressed as part of the solution. A big part of the problem is getting costs under control, from the cost of educating qualified physicians nurses and techs, to medical research, pharmaceuticals and tort reform. As well as addressing graft and corruption that is built into the medicare system.
+1
I have been friends with two physicians in my life. One, I used to shoot with on rare occasions he could ever get time off. Also lived in close proximity to the "Triangle" area in NC where most of "Big Pharma" is headquartered for 4 years.
If one wonders why costs are so expensive it is simply the legal environment Doctors, Pharma, and the hospitals themselves have to
survive in. I could ramble on for hours how much the legal environment costs, but there is plenty of info on line for people to see for themselves. These costs are astronomical and passed on to insurers who pass it on to customers.
What the MDs are upset about is with GOVERNMENTs micromanagement of healthcare, absolutely NOTHING has been done to lessen the catastrophic affects of lawsuits or any form of tort reform in general.
If there is a state constitution that empowers the state government to make that same mandate, I'd like to see that as well.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
Before the conversation goes any further, I would like for someone to cite the portion of the constitution that outlays the power of the federal government to require that the citizens of the USA pay for another person's medical treatments.
If there is a state constitution that empowers the state government to make that same mandate, I'd like to see that as well.
Ask John Roberts
Perry Shooter and Shilowar hit the nail on the head. My Family Doctor explains that todays general practitioner in the U.S., has become a specialist in Obesity, Diabetes, and addiction. It has permeated all the way down to childhood. 2014 was the first year in decades that, despite being at the pinnacle of medical technology, our life expectancy went down. Yet people expect to live long enjoyable lives. That is going to incur tremendous medical expense. Shilowars last sentence is huge. Fraud costs Medicare tens of billions of dollars annually. But that is only part of it. Waste adds more than that to the total. My dear old mom's nursing home rented her an nebulizer inhaler for $100 per month. She used it for 2 months, but they kept it for 6.That's $600! The home said to me, "what do you care, Medicare paid for it". I saw what they rented at Wahlgreens. It cost $84.95 to own it. When she was dying, they hired hospice to visit at $100 per day. They came twice a week for 2 months. $1600 i thought. When I got her Medicare summary 3 months after her death, I saw that Medicare had paid them $9000! $100 per day for 3 months! Those were acceptable charges for one little old lady, in one small town in America. Those were considered legitimate charges, not fraud, and that times millions, is the problem. Our initial concern is where will we get more and more money to pay higher and higher costs. The real question should be, How do we first get it under control and run it efficiently, so we know how much we really need?
Most places rent the invacare stratos unit (1700).. you can find them new on ebarf for around $40, used for much less (and anything you get from a rental outfit is used) I believe what you saw for $89 was an upgraded unit thats not really needed for most purposes.
Before the conversation goes any further, I would like for someone to cite the portion of the constitution that outlays the power of the federal government to require that the citizens of the USA pay for another person's medical treatments.
If there is a state constitution that empowers the state government to make that same mandate, I'd like to see that as well.
Unfortunately, Our government, at all levels, no longer gives a crap about our Constitution.
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
Before the conversation goes any further, I would like for someone to cite the portion of the constitution that outlays the power of the federal government to require that the citizens of the USA pay for another person's medical treatments.
If there is a state constitution that empowers the state government to make that same mandate, I'd like to see that as well.
Ask John Roberts
Again? He was already asked and could not answer.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
What some of the posters are failing to understand is that Healthcare is being paid for by the tax payer or underfunded and un-funded sources already.
Way before ACA, I am saying you should have a financial responsibility to pay and since most can't pay for a 100,000 heart attack you must have some type of insurance or be willing to just die with no treatment.
And lets address the Medicare entitlement, it isn't even close to being funded so just because you paid in doesn't make it your conservative right to enjoy healthcare at the expense of the tax payers.
Also read up on EMTALA before you post, FOR PROFIT hospitals are required by law to treat and stabilize life threatening conditions regardless of the persons ability to pay.
And finally Medicaid which has been around way before ACA takes money from the working class and uses it to fund healthcare for the indigent.
My point is if we pay for anybody or help anybody shouldn't it be for the working class?
And no matter how "responsible" you were any of you got 1 million laying around to use for healthcare?
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
Before the conversation goes any further, I would like for someone to cite the portion of the constitution that outlays the power of the federal government to require that the citizens of the USA pay for another person's medical treatments.
If there is a state constitution that empowers the state government to make that same mandate, I'd like to see that as well.
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
Before the conversation goes any further, I would like for someone to cite the portion of the constitution that outlays the power of the federal government to require that the citizens of the USA pay for another person's medical treatments.
If there is a state constitution that empowers the state government to make that same mandate, I'd like to see that as well.
Unfortunately, Our government, at all levels, no longer gives a crap about our Constitution.
All the more reason to elect a constitutionally minded president: Cruz.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
Clearly it won't be there.
Then, of course it should be left up to private industry and/or charitable organizations to handle. I can't see why that is not a viable solution if paying for another's health care expenses is the people's mandate.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
And if you can't pay and the private sector or charitable sector doesn't decide to treat you we leave you in the street dying?
Cool, I am all for it, but if you keep Medicare and Medicaid and EMTALA then you have to at least also consider covering the workers who aren't.
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by Scottymac
Clearly it won't be there.
Then, of course it should be left up to private industry and/or charitable organizations to handle. I can't see why that is not a viable solution if paying for another's health care expenses is the people's mandate.
So to be more clear you are saying to abolish Emtala, and Medicare/Medicaid and everyone pays for their own healthcare. Period no government intervention.
And if you can't pay and the private sector or charitable sector doesn't decide to treat you we leave you in the street dying?
Politicians would have us believe that paying for another's medical expenses is the mandate of the people, if they are right, I don't see that as happening, do you? If they aren't then apparently the will of the people isn't quite as they thought.[:I]
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
The one thing that we CAN'T do is tell people: "You HAVE to buy health insurance." No one in the world does that; look at what is certain to happen with ACA
those who fail to pay their fines will go to jail! And many will love it, because then they will be eligible for free health care. I think that you will end up with millions of old folks lined up at the DOJ to turn themselves in.
Another point: the federal government doesn't have any money; it is just a mechanism to redistribute OUR money. So, any system that provides health care has to be paid for by those with money, or with a job, or with some other income. Like many European countries, we pay for it through taxing those with money; and, that's not a bad thing unless you have 50 million people on welfare & an open border.
I don't see any way out of this dilemma. There are too many companies with too much power who will kill any attempt at reform, no matter how large the bribes have to be. Today, most people DO get the health care that they need. 20% of our health care dollars go to overhead; the first thing we need to do is go to single payer. And, tort reform is needed.
Neal
Why should someone be able to earn a living and choose not to pay for Health Insurance and then show up to get treatment they have no intention of paying for?
Now if on the other hand we don't treat people who show up at the ER and don't pay then no you can't mandate insurance.
But if I owned the hospital and you force me to treat the uninsured then someone is going to have to pay me back, if you mandate that everyone has health insurance I may not get the deductible from the patient but at least I get paid something from the insurer on the big bills.
How many people have shown up at the ER with a heart attack and/or brought their kid in dying and gotten a lifesaving operation that cost 500K? How many of them have that kind of money?
Hell Yeah mandate health insurance or let them die
quote:Originally posted by guntech59
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
Before the conversation goes any further, I would like for someone to cite the portion of the constitution that outlays the power of the federal government to require that the citizens of the USA pay for another person's medical treatments.
If there is a state constitution that empowers the state government to make that same mandate, I'd like to see that as well.
Unfortunately, Our government, at all levels, no longer gives a crap about our Constitution.
All the more reason to elect a constitutionally minded president: Cruz.
He is my choice, as well.
Before the conversation goes any further, I would like for someone to cite the portion of the constitution that outlays the power of the federal government to require that the citizens of the USA pay for another person's medical treatments.
If there is a state constitution that empowers the state government to make that same mandate, I'd like to see that as well.
There is nothing to cite.
It was only after health insurance provided as a benefit of employment became the norm that health care costs started to escalate through the roof.
So if not Obamacare what?
A lot of people do not work for a government or a major corporation that provides healthcare benefits at a reasonable cost to the employee.
Many employers large and small, (well before Obamacare) cut out health insurance benefits altogether or shifted so much of the cost to the employee that many dropped the coverage.
This leaves the employee or self employed in a position to pay for healthcare on their own.
How many low to middle income workers are going to pay 8-12 grand a year for a healthcare policy that has a large deductible before it pays?
Most will "roll the dice" and go without Health insurance, especially those without assets that can have a lien placed on them.
So who will pay the cost of the emergency and deferred healthcare?
Tax payers.
We all praise Conservative values but when a person works full time and has no healthcare benefits and gets sick, who is going to pay the possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars incurred?
A law requiring Health insurance or at least the ability to post a bond if you choose not to pay for it makes sense to me.
Why leave someone the "right" to stiff the rest of us?
Unless of course we are going to abolish EMTALA laws and let them die in the streets?
A example of stupidity in my opinion is say a person has an infection, they blow it off due to lack of healthcare, it gets worse and the limb has to be amputated. They can't pay for basic treatment they sure as heck ain't paying for the surgery and now will possibly draw Disability for a lifetime?
What would have been less costly to the tax payer?
What about the guy who worked hard all his life has no health insurance and losses his assets to a huge bill for an illness?
Requiring at least some type of catastrophic insurance would prevent the tax payer from footing the bill for the working class and keep them out of bankruptcy.
And why should workers be covered when we cover the poorest Americans through Medicaid which those same workers helped to fund at least in part?
If you have a better plan please describe it before we completely dismiss all aspects of ACA I suggest we solve some of the issues?
Abolishing EMTALA would work but are we hard hearted enough to live with that?
The first error is thinking the Federal government should be or has a right to be involved with healthcare to begin with. If you want to see government healthcare at its very best look at the dead Veterans that got bonuses paid to VA workers.
States Rights.
If you state had health care for its citizens it could compete with my state to reduce costs and increase quality for all. States would compete for the cost of care and its quality. That is what a free market does best. Lets say Indiana had great care for the young kids but Texas had better care fitting your family at a lesser cost. You could/would choose Texas and be free to move there.
It is also not true that INSURANCE, not to be confused with pre-paid medical care, has not been cost effective. In my mid 50's I got a policy with a 5K deductible for 125 bucks a month that even covered one Dr office visit and screening exams at no additional charge after a 50 buck co-pay.
Our society had according to the Head Marxist Obama 47,000,000 uninsured citizens, he stuck his Socialist nose in it spending over a trillion dollars and we still have 32,000,000 uninsured. Our society could have paid for conventional health policies for the uninsured Americans and saved a half-trillion bucks.
The very notion of employer provided insurance was caused by government meddling to begin with. Wage freezes during the war forced companies to offer bennies outside the scope of the law to get good workers. Providing free health care got them around the wage freeze and gave workers an incentive to jump ship.
Government is NEVER the solution to social issues.
How many hospitals do you think the insurance companies own? The answer is a heck of a lot. So when they pay they are partially paying themselves. The higher the cost the more they make.
Also the insurance companies are a slush fund for both political parties. They lobby and pay campaign funds for stuff like mandatory insurance. Whenever anything is mandatory the price goes up.
The mad circle goes on and on and the drug companies are involved also. Why would insurance companies and pharmaceuticals donate to politicians? Go Figure.
I'm sure you will hear a lot about this huge scam from Trump in the future. You won't hear it from the insiders because they are reaping the benefits of the scam.
Forget about taxing corporations they never pay tax. The yget their money from you and you pay the tax. Are you feeling better now? There is a lot more.
quote:Originally posted by chiefr
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
Before the conversation goes any further, I would like for someone to cite the portion of the constitution that outlays the power of the federal government to require that the citizens of the USA pay for another person's medical treatments.
If there is a state constitution that empowers the state government to make that same mandate, I'd like to see that as well.
Ask John Roberts
Again? He was already asked and could not answer.
He did answer. Not to our satisfaction However.
He said government can force us to buy any product. All they have to do is call it a tax.
Govt provide free medical care.
AND all free loaders give up all the free stuff - everything. If you don't work, you don't eat. Only people with actual disabilities get any free stuff.