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hypothetical question
joshmb1982
Member Posts: 8,929
given the notion that the 2a guarentees our right to unabstructed access and rights to firearms how would this law sit with people? for identifying criminals who should be unable to own firarms. (i know if the system worked this would be a non issue but bear with me) how about upon your birth you are issued a lifetime card. similar to a social security card. had your full name on it along with something to make it very difficult to copy or make a new one like a hologram or something and a photo of you just to verify your the owner of this card.. this card would not have any id # or be traced to a data base of any kind. or anything on it just says your name and maintain your right to own a firearm. anyone possesing this card can purchase/posses whatever their heart desires. if this card is lost just report it as so and new one would be issued. now if you are tried and convicted of a crime that warrents you a danger and unable to own a firearm your card is taken away. so john doe, upstanding citizen, walks in jane does gun shop and wantes to purchase a machine gun. pulls out the money for it and this card jane doe sees his pic verifies its him and sells it to him no paperwork required. dont need to call the pd or atf. would this be an acceptable alternative?
Comments
You are thinking.
However, you still place the burden of proof on the decent Citizen to prove his innocence every time he moves a muscle.
You dismiss entirely too easily the concept of forcing criminals to pay their debt to Society...ALL OF IT.
(i know if the system worked this would be a non issue but bear with me)
You must learn to DEMAND that vicious animals pay the ultimate price for their deeds...instead of attempting to force decent, law-abiding people to prove their bona fides ..that they are decent people.
One does not solve the problem of a small number of deranged killers by forcing millions of innocent citizens to prove that they are innocent.
There also is no place in the Constitution authorizing such behavior by the government.
im afraid i dont quite understand your logic here please explain.
i agree with you in your regards to the 2a. however the way our justice system works this is not possible. with the lame brains in office letteing anyone who says im sorry go there needs to be some way of telling who the crooks are. if the criminals were forced to pay their debt entirely this wouldnt be an issue. but they dont so it is. with criminals being let back out nto the streets wouldnt this be a viable alternative? a way to keep them in check while stepping on the 2a as little as possible? this card would have no id# on it. i said only similar to the ss card. it would have a photo of you and saying approved or whatever you wanted it to say. say your pulled over for speeding. you pull out your drivers liscense and proof of insurance along with this card and inform him your carrying. now everything is fine you get your ticket. i understand that the berden of proof still falls on you to prove your legal. but given the * system we currently have to deal with. what choice is there? the bottem line to all this is the system is * all the wayy around. and nothing short of revolution will change that in my grandchildrens time let alone mine. so given the sorry state we find ourselves in wouldnt this be a viable option?
given the notion that the 2a guarentees our right to unabstructed access and rights to firearms how would this law sit with people? for identifying criminals who should be unable to own firarms. (i know if the system worked this would be a non issue but bear with me) how about upon your birth you are issued a lifetime card. similar to a social security card. had your full name on it along with something to make it very difficult to copy or make a new one like a hologram or something and a photo of you just to verify your the owner of this card.. this card would not have any id # or be traced to a data base of any kind. or anything on it just says your name and maintain your right to own a firearm. anyone possesing this card can purchase/posses whatever their heart desires. if this card is lost just report it as so and new one would be issued. now if you are tried and convicted of a crime that warrents you a danger and unable to own a firearm your card is taken away. so john doe, upstanding citizen, walks in jane does gun shop and wantes to purchase a machine gun. pulls out the money for it and this card jane doe sees his pic verifies its him and sells it to him no paperwork required. dont need to call the pd or atf. would this be an acceptable alternative?
In 1933 Hitler did the same thing to the Jews so he could easily round them up....we all know the end result. No - I am sorry, your idea about the cards at birth is a bad idea. I don't need any gov't entity knowing if and how many firearms I own !
You are a poster boy for collective thinking.
You reject as unworkable holding individuals responsible for their OWN actions;
You force an entire population to carry, keep up with, and be responsible for some `card' ..without which they may not exercise the freedoms of a Citizen.
Somehow, in your mind, holding vicious savages to consequences is unworkable;
Yet you WILL hold the great bulk of citizens responsible for THEIR actions.
For without the card ..you are not a Citizen. You basically will make criminals out of 299 Million Souls ..because you refuse to hold the other million accountable.
You fit nicely into Fox's and big governments' world. Congratulations.
Or current system wants to keep a data base on everybody and only have it accessable to LEOs or FFLs.
The gov would scream and holler if this open information let people have control. Then they could not restrict anything or shift the burden of proof on to the individual. I know it sounds simple - but think about it.
HB, I get the impression that Josh is very young. I will grant him some slack since he is freshly indoctrinated by the Public Indoctrination (School) System and it appears that he at least sees flaws and is trying to find a way to work around it with the knowledge he has. He will learn the right way in time. Watch and see. He sees the light and is testing the footing in the "lighted area" right now. He will step fully into it soon. Just needs a little patience and enlightenment from us about the true way a republic operates, not the way he was taught in school.[:D]
Now that's a respectable approach. [;)]
Kudos JP!!
you are mistaken in my beliefs in that is it unworkable holding individuals responsible for their OWN actions. i am a strong believer that i am my own keeper and solely responsible for my own actions. i decide wether an option is good or bad and suffer the consequences of it. and i have stated befor in this thread and others that i would hold individuals responsible for what they have done and make them pay for their own actions. if i knew how to find the specific thread i said them on id show you.
in a perfect world your system would work beautifully. but this is by no means that world. if the 2nd revolution were over today and the country were restored to former self with everyone accountable for themselves no restrictions on anything. i would give this new america mabye as long as its been since the 1st revolution befor it to became corrupt. people are infinatly corruptable. why wouldnt the government follow the lead of the people? i am unaware of any organization/nation/whatever that started on the best of intentions and lasted indefinatly. can you point one out to me? people are greedy people are jeleous people are corrupt. a government started under the best of conditions with the greatest intentions is doomed to fail. it will always last up to a point. how can 300 million people ever agree on anything. take your brethren on here. say you what 13-14?? are the founding fathers and everyone thinks as you do on accountability. mabye not your kids or even your grand kids but somewhere down the line over time this view is going to change once again. so slowly at first you barely notice it but always gaining speed. and eventually were right back here again. it happend once right. here we are now. whats to stop it again? would you be willing to see your grandchildren banished not not holding to these believs?
i honestly dont think my views are wholly different from your own. i just dont see how such a system could be maintained. and comparing me to tr fox is da-- near fighting words. i ABSOLUTLY DO NOT agree with 99% of the garbage that he posts. i would rather live a life devoid of human cantact then live a life with only people like him.
I am a law abiding citizen entitled to all of my rights under the Constitution, and I will not carry another "card" to prove that I am "safe."
(Highball) Good show, Josh..and EXACTLY the response hoped for.
Now ..the system quite possible could NOT be maintained ..at least not without major revisions to the Constitution
Perhaps something along the lines of a written in death penalty for contravening the Constitution with gun control laws or taking of Private Property for Business..?
Yes ..I full understand that we are talking about two different things;
The world as it IS;
And the World as it SHOULD be.
The thing to remember is ..unless you understand the `ideal' world ..one where vicious animals are executed, within a month ..then you are hopelessly bound up in trying to figure out a `card' for honest, decent citizens so they somehow can `prove' that they ARE humans...
Nosir..the proper response to evil lawmakers is to hold their feet to the fire..DEMAND ACCOUNTABILITY for the savages that walk among us.
Do not allow them to add yet MORE layers of accountability for decent citizens.
They have much more responsibility...and much more chance to do harm.
Public Elective Office NEEDS to be forced on a man ..not something eagerly sought out as a means to serve six years and have your needs taken care of for the rest of your life...
The equation is simple;
While in public office for your 2-4-6 years...resist corruption, or suffer the consequences of your actions.
That goes for Police Officers, dogcatchers, mayors ..or the president.
Somehow I don't think it would be as benine or innocent as you hope. After all, every knows that if you want to screw up a perfectly good idea, give it to the government to impliment.
Josh,,, this is the same Government that said that a Social Security Card would never be used as a form of identfication. *L* yeah right. That has worked out so well. So your idea is to trust them NEVER to use your card as a means to track gun owners or what they have.
Somehow I don't think it would be as benine or innocent as you hope. After all, every knows that if you want to screw up a perfectly good idea, give it to the government to impliment.
45long,......great post.
Try going to a doctor even, at least in my area, and refusing to give your SS#.
I tried it! After explaining that they have no right to ask for that info,.......I was politely informed that I WAS correct.
I was then told to go down the road, and attempt to find an MD that would accept my beliefs.
BTW,......on the "illegal" NICS checks, I never fill out my SS#, for what it's worth.[xx(][xx(]
SIMILAR TO a social security card. had your full name on it along with something to make it very difficult to copy or make a new one like a hologram or something and a photo of you just to verify your the owner of this card.. this card would not have any id # or be traced to a data base of any kind. or anything on it just says your name and maintain your right to own a firearm.
how could this be used as an id. there is no # associated with it. agreed though that the feds can screw up the best of ideas.
read my first post.
SIMILAR TO a social security card. had your full name on it along with something to make it very difficult to copy or make a new one like a hologram or something and a photo of you just to verify your the owner of this card.. this card would not have any id # or be traced to a data base of any kind. or anything on it just says your name and maintain your right to own a firearm.
how could this be used as an id. there is no # associated with it. agreed though that the feds can screw up the best of ideas.
Well a photo wouldn't work, unless you are getting a new card every year, as people can change hair style/color.
So that leaves it to somehow tying in psyical info.
Who is to say, that you couldn't hand said card over, OR it be stolen and used?
highball
if the duty of office was forced upon a man what if he refused? would this be a similar deal to jury duty either show up or go to jail? what would be the pay grade? would there be a standard or same as what he made befor coming into office. if a man is forced into unwillingly serving his country wouldnt this man not do as good a job as someone who at least said ok fine ill do it. though i agree on the conept. anyone who would activly campaign/seek to be president must have some sort of power issues.
Were it a part of early schooling and possibly school course, everybody would understand that getting tapped on the shoulder would oblige you to serve..much as a jury, as you mentioned.
We operate under the assumption that people that run for office are somehow 'better trained, more knowledgeable' then ordinary people...and I give you obama. there can be no more unfit person alive to run for high office.
In the first years of the Republic, freedom/laws looked like this;
Freedom....................................Laws
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++#######
Today we have;
Laws.........................................Freedom
############################################++++++++
History proves that government seeks only to grow bigger and more powerful. Eventually, at some point, slit trenches will be dug for the bodies of 'enemies of the state'. It never fails.