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SELLERS if you QUIT on California you've given up.
romanvix
Member Posts: 5 ✭✭
I am disappointed at the dealers and private sellers out there who put WILL NOT SELL TO CALIFORNIA DUE TO NEW LAWS in their ads. They have truly given up.
If you were at all concerned about gun rights and your right to sell freely you would take the extra step or two to make a transfer and sell a firearm in California. Heck add an extra dollar or two if thats what it takes. The process isn't that difficult.
If you chose NOT to sell here then you have responded as intended and done EXACTLY what the politicans here wanted you to do; letting red tape effectively become bans on firearms as THEY intended.
Don't give in to these ploys because special interest will certainly take note, announce victories, and send messages to politicans here that they can get away with even more.
Sellers keep selling here and make YOUR message clear. The right to sell and own firearms.
If you were at all concerned about gun rights and your right to sell freely you would take the extra step or two to make a transfer and sell a firearm in California. Heck add an extra dollar or two if thats what it takes. The process isn't that difficult.
If you chose NOT to sell here then you have responded as intended and done EXACTLY what the politicans here wanted you to do; letting red tape effectively become bans on firearms as THEY intended.
Don't give in to these ploys because special interest will certainly take note, announce victories, and send messages to politicans here that they can get away with even more.
Sellers keep selling here and make YOUR message clear. The right to sell and own firearms.
Comments
Everyone's already made up their minds, I think, so not much use going down that road again. Besides, I found a gun in CA cheaper than anywhere else, and you might be able to as well...
I am disappointed at the dealers and private sellers out there who put WILL NOT SELL TO CALIFORNIA DUE TO NEW LAWS in their ads. They have truly given up.
If you were at all concerned about gun rights and your right to sell freely you would take the extra step or two to make a transfer and sell a firearm in California. Heck add an extra dollar or two if thats what it takes. The process isn't that difficult.
If you chose NOT to sell here then you have responded as intended and done EXACTLY what the politicans here wanted you to do; letting red tape effectively become bans on firearms as THEY intended.
Don't give in to these ploys because special interest will certainly take note, announce victories, and send messages to politicans here that they can get away with even more.
Sellers keep selling here and make YOUR message clear. The right to sell and own firearms.
Don't like it ? TOUGH.
YOU fix the problems in YOUR state and stop demanding sellers to jump through STUPID, UNCONSTITUTIONAL hoops, to satisfy the anti-gunners, that you vote in to RUN your state.
Typical response from someone from the PRK. Point the finger at EVERYONE else, and accept NO BLAME for what is YOUR fault.
YOU fix the problems in YOUR state and stop demanding sellers to jump through STUPID, UNCONSTITUTIONAL hoops, to satisfy the anti-gunners, that you vote in to RUN your state.
Typical response from someone from the PRK. Point the finger at EVERYONE else, and accept NO BLAME for what is YOUR fault.
FREEMIND has given up. The anti-gun politicians love your response.
There are still plenty of us in this state that are fighting to keep out gun rights alive. Since I didn't place any blame I will just disregard the other above statement.
Mine is to encourage sellers to resume sales here, it's not about saving a buck, it's about keeping us in the gun business. There's plenty of buyers here. Silly to ever suggest leaving the state just to buy guns. Never give up the ground elstwise others will surely follow.
Don't like it ? TOUGH.
YOU fix the problems in YOUR state and stop demanding sellers to jump through STUPID, UNCONSTITUTIONAL hoops, to satisfy the anti-gunners, that you vote in to RUN your state.
Typical response from someone from the PRK. Point the finger at EVERYONE else, and accept NO BLAME for what is YOUR fault.
FREEMIND has given up. The anti-gun politicians love your response.
There are still plenty of us in this state that are fighting to keep out gun rights alive. Since I didn't place any blame I will just disregard the other above statement.
Mine is to encourage sellers to resume sales here, it's not about saving a buck, it's about keeping us in the gun business. There's plenty of buyers here. Silly to ever suggest leaving the state just to buy guns. Never give up the ground elstwise others will surely follow.
uh, yeah
quote:I am disappointed at the dealers and private sellers out there who put WILL NOT SELL TO CALIFORNIA DUE TO NEW LAWS in their ads. They have truly given up.
Yep, your NOT pointing the blame at ANYONE.
Either there aren't enough of you to fight the fight, or you all say one thing and do another. Witness the laws in your state.
Fix it, or shut the piehole. Stop crying at everyone who refuses to jump through MORE hoops in YOUR state. Are YOU going to rush in with YOUR money, when they pull a Bloomberg, and start prosecuting dealers?
I bet NOT.
Your responses are entirely too negative (comming from one who has given up) instead of proactive and thinking outside the current paradigm.
You are excused from this thread.
Don't bother with a closed-mind, ill informed, response.
OUT.
FREEMIND you obviously have no idea how much I and many others have done to keep the rights we still have here. And we cotinue the fight.
Your responses are entirely too negative (comming from one who has given up) instead of proactive and thinking outside the current paradigm.
You are excused from this thread.
Don't bother with a closed-mind, ill informed, response.
OUT.
Don't bother to think you are going to "excuse" me from anything.
I have NEVER live in PRK, NY city, Chitcago, or any OTHER antigun area. I grew up in Michigan, and since leaving, that have become anti-gun.
IF my state had ever decided to adopt anti-gun legislation, such as the cesspool YOU live in, I and my fellow citizens would hang OUR politicians from thre gallows.
YOU have given up, by NOT taking whatever measures necessary to KEEP your freedom in the state you choose to reside in.
Closed minded? From from it.
I don't tolerate whiners well. I tire of you people that think everyone ELSE ought to do YOUR dirty work.
Take some responsibility for YOURSELF and make some REAL change.
I was born in CA, spent time there when in the USN, and visit the Monterrey peninsula on occasion. It is a shame that state so blessed with such natural beauty has fallen prey to the dominating government structure that they have created.
It is not difficult to understand why some sellers choose not to sell into California. Some will choose to suit up to enter a contaminated space. Some choose not to enter. It is the gun owners of California that must embark upon the clean up. It is not the responsibility of those of us who choose not to live in the state.
Brad Steele
quote:Originally posted by romanvix
FREEMIND you obviously have no idea how much I and many others have done to keep the rights we still have here. And we cotinue the fight.
Your responses are entirely too negative (comming from one who has given up) instead of proactive and thinking outside the current paradigm.
You are excused from this thread.
Don't bother with a closed-mind, ill informed, response.
OUT.
Don't bother to think you are going to "excuse" me from anything.
I have NEVER live in PRK, NY city, Chitcago, or any OTHER antigun area. I grew up in Michigan, and since leaving, that have become anti-gun.
IF my state had ever decided to adopt anti-gun legislation, such as the cesspool YOU live in, I and my fellow citizens would hang OUR politicians from thre gallows.
YOU have given up, by NOT taking whatever measures necessary to KEEP your freedom in the state you choose to reside in.
Closed minded? From from it.
I don't tolerate whiners well. I tire of you people that think everyone ELSE ought to do YOUR dirty work.
Take some responsibility for YOURSELF and make some REAL change.
What about those of us that are defending your freedom to refuse to sell to california, yet we didnt have a choice to come here. Im an Active Duty Marine, and when my orders told me to report, thats what I did. There is only 4 bases I can really get stationed at, camp lejuene in NC, Ft Sill Oklahoma (was stationed there before coming to cali this time) 29 palms or Camp Pendleton Californina. so 2 outta 4 bases, really oklahoma dont count so 2 outta 3 bases are out here. Now Im still an oklahoma resident, but I can buy Guns out here thanks to my PCS orders, plus the fact that I just got my C&R license as well. Now the people that made these stupid laws out here want you to not sell to california, and they are winnning. I didnt vote for these idiots, but guess what, Im stuck with there laws. And before some ignorant fool says "how have you fought for your freedoms" I have been to Iraq twice, been wounded once, got the Purple heart, Navy Commendation with "V" and Combat action all in my first tour (Mitt Tm 3/5 Jan-Jul 06)"
I was pretty Irate when I wrote this, seems like some people are willing to sell us out and let the gun grabbers win, but what I had posted was not relevant to the descussion at hand. I mention my military service (going on 16yrs now) so that there can be no question about my willingness to fight for freedom. If you Think its like a race card well I really dont care. I wasnt using it to win an argument, obviously to you everyone that lives here loves the laws and moved here willingly. I was trying to show you that not all "california Residents" came here for the weather and the laws. I dont think I can win an argument with you, cause you have already made up your mind and there is no changin it.
I DON'T shove that in people's faces, to try to win the arguement either.
To me, using your service, is like using the race card. You aren't worth debating with in my book, when you sink to a low to "win" an arguement.
This is for all that say they are done with California
First they came for the Semi-automatic rifles, but I did not speak out because I didnt own any and refused to sell them to people that wanted them.
Then they came for the .50 caliber weapons, but I did not speak out because I didnt own any and refused to sell them to people that wanted them.
Then they came for the Pistols, but again I did not speak out because I didnt own any and refused to sell them to people that wanted them.
Finally when they came for my Hunting rifles and shotguns, there was no one to speak out for me and the weapons I do sell.
I own bolt action, semi-autos, and pistols, All are legal in california. If you just roll over and say "Im not selling there anymore", then you are just as bad and are actively helping the people that want to disarm us or refuse to fight because that is what you are doing. And thus you are the enemy just like Diane fienstien or any other gun Grabber
Fair enough. I would take issue with the 'Ignorant Fools' comment, as there is legitimacy in the statement that the war in Iraq has little to do with our freedom. That has nothing to do with you personally, and is a political determination that does not effect the rights of gun owners in CA.
The problem we face is that California has been given a virtually blank slate by the Heller decision as to what types of firearms its citizens can own, how they are to be registered and, frankly, who can be licensed to own them. California politicians will not be influenced by anyone, including you, who is not a voter, and they will not be influenced by voters until there is a significant enough of them that are vocal and active that they may effect the outcome of an election.
Electing to sell to California or not will have no effect what-so-ever on the decisions of California lawmakers. Perhaps not selling will hurt the state coffers slightly, but it is and always will be a minimal and thus ignorable amount.
The fact is that there is nothing that a non-voter can do, resulting in the obvious fact that the gun-owners of California need to change enough minds so as to effect change in Sacramento. A seller refusing to become part of the state's database is a personal decision, and I totally reject your statement that they can in any way be compared to Ms. Feinstein or any other gun-grabber out there.
The bottom line is that California's gun owners have to get their act together and force the issue. It was done through the courts in DC without anyone spending anytime in prison, and there is ample monetary support from gun rights organizations and from individuals, including members of this forum, to support a test case as was done in DC. It is obvious that such a case would have to go all the way to the SCOTUS, and it would have to overturn parts of the Heller decision to be successful. That is an extremely tough row to hoe, so the immediate and practical approach is to either:
1. Use the California Initiative process to strike down existing restrictions, or,
2. Petition legislators in Sacramento in sufficient numbers to change their position.
As a visitor, you can do nothing of significance, and though one would assume that the 14th Amendment covers the rights codified in the 2nd, in practical America today, as confirmed by the Kennedy court, it does not.
Given that, sellers have every right to choose not to participate in California's registration scheme, and their decision either way should not be considered collusion with the grabbers.
Brad Steele
I fully agree BTW.
Noonanda:
Fair enough. I would take issue with the 'Ignorant Fools' comment, as there is legitimacy in the statement that the war in Iraq has little to do with our freedom. That has nothing to do with you personally, and is a political determination that does not effect the rights of gun owners in CA.
I mentioned that due to the fact that I have fought for all of our rights, not just the second ammendment. I would rather fight terrorists there than here, so the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness means alot to me. I have been there and Iraq isnt just about oil or WMD's, I have helped spread freedom to another country. You may think different but I have bled for the Iraqis and it was worth every drop of blood. I still carry a few tiny rocks/dirt in my body from when I was wounded, and I wouldnt trade them for all the money in the world, it was all worth it to me.
quote:The problem we face is that California has been given a virtually blank slate by the Heller decision as to what types of firearms its citizens can own, how they are to be registered and, frankly, who can be licensed to own them. California politicians will not be influenced by anyone, including you, who is not a voter, and they will not be influenced by voters until there is a significant enough of them that are vocal and active that they may effect the outcome of an election.
Thats why California cant be just written off. Why not fight the enemy here in california so you dont have to fight them in your own home state. Because the Gun Grabbers will say "look, it works in California, lets try it here". just like some states pulled with the DC gun ban, "look it works there" ignoring all the facts that proved it did not work. and as far as "Registration" goes, not a single firearm I own is "registered" with the state. because it isnt required for the firearms I do own to include an AK clone, AR clone, M-1A and many C&R rifles, and registration is unconstitutional .
quote:Electing to sell to California or not will have no effect what-so-ever on the decisions of California lawmakers. Perhaps not selling will hurt the state coffers slightly, but it is and always will be a minimal and thus ignorable amount.
This state revolves around money, every little bit helps or hurts them. Californians vote with their checkbook as the saying goes, so every little victory we can get means that another gun is owned and operated while the gun grabbers try to take em away
quote:The fact is that there is nothing that a non-voter can do, resulting in the obvious fact that the gun-owners of California need to change enough minds so as to effect change in Sacramento. A seller refusing to become part of the state's database is a personal decision, and I totally reject your statement that they can in any way be compared to Ms. Feinstein or any other gun-grabber out there.
To sell here is your choice, obviously I cannot change it. But not selling here IS helping those that want us disarmed. It is making it harder to get people into shooting sports, hunting ETC. It is allowing the politicans to say " due to the laws we made, there are now less guns in criminals hands in this state than before" which is a lie and BS anyway because it doesnt change the facts that criminals do not comply with gun laws regarding purchasing transportation or use. This allows the Politicians to convice some people to re-elect them because they think they are actually doing something good when others really know the truth.
quote:The bottom line is that California's gun owners have to get their act together and force the issue. It was done through the courts in DC without anyone spending anytime in prison, and there is ample monetary support from gun rights organizations and from individuals, including members of this forum, to support a test case as was done in DC. It is obvious that such a case would have to go all the way to the SCOTUS, and it would have to overturn parts of the Heller decision to be successful. That is an extremely tough row to hoe, so the immediate and practical approach is to either:
1. Use the California Initiative process to strike down existing restrictions, or,
2. Petition legislators in Sacramento in sufficient numbers to change their position.
As a visitor, you can do nothing of significance, and though one would assume that the 14th Amendment covers the rights codified in the 2nd, in practical America today, as confirmed by the Kennedy court, it does not.
Given that, sellers have every right to choose not to participate in California's registration scheme, and their decision either way should not be considered collusion with the grabbers.
I look at it alot similar to the way I look at the war on terror. If you support terrorists, you are one. Direct or indirect support, it doesnt matter, you are still helping the enemy.
If you are refusing to help us in our fight using all legal means available to include the legal transfer of firearms to law abiding citizens, then you are indirectly helping the enemy. You are giving him aid in his fight to ban all guns here, you give him comfort by allowing him to know that his strategy is working. You provide him with the ammunition he needs to come up with stricter and more draconian regulations. You protect him and his laws by saying it isn't worth the trouble. Because refusing to sell here allows him to win. Selling firearms here shows that his strategy to affect interstate commerce does not work, that he will not be provided with an easy win, that the gunsellers from other states will not provide him with the ammunition he needs for re-election, the aid of not going through the trouble, the comfort of knowing his strategy works. But again this is your choice.
But in my eyes you are either with us or agains us in our fight here. I could roll over too, I have 5 years till I retire from the Marine Corps and move away, but I refuse to let this be the starting point for disarming.
I WILL NEVER buy from someone who refuses to sell a legal firearm to a law abiding Californian even when I move back to a less restrictive state. They are providing aid to the enemy and will be treated as such.
Yes, and every time I buy from midway I also do the "keep the change" deal. I am a member of calguns and try to help when I can. the NRA stepped up in the last few years when we faced a critical junction in the "listed/ unlisted" lower reciever/ detachable magazine fight. I have been in california since Nov of 06, and by california law qualify as a resident even though I am not. so my tax dollars do speak as well
quote:I look at it alot similar to the way I look at the war on terror. If you support terrorists, you are one. Direct or indirect support, it doesnt matter, you are still helping the enemy.
Then I suggest that you take a look at yourself in the mirror.
The NRA has been compromising on, facilitating, supporting and actually assisting in the drafting of anti-gun legislation since the 1930's.
Using your own analogy, you are providing indirect support for gun control and thus, helping the enemy by doing so.
The NRA supports a different Second Amendment than that which is found in the US Constitution's Bill of Rights.
The NRA's Second Amendment is okay with promoting and "allowing" select citizens to keep and bear "certain" arms, for target shooting, competition, collecting and even for self-defense, but with the caveat that the government has every right and has the 'just' authority to regulate this (now) "privilege" to keep and bear "certain" arms, under "certain" conditions.
Most of Kali's purported Second Amendment warriors are four-square in support with that "NRA-esque' position.
Think about it.
Despite your statements to the contrary, choosing to not sell into California will make no impact what-so-ever on the opinions of the State Legislature. I am not a seller, but I am pretty sure I would take the same stand as Ronnie Barrett and refused to jump through their hoops.
BTW, the Heller decision specifically states that registration of guns and the licensing of owners is legal, and that the Constitution provides various tools for jurisdictions to regulate firearms as well. Accordingly, California's current laws have been made Constitutional by these creations of the court. They are not Constitutional in fact, but it appears they would be found Constitutional if put to the test.
I am by no means writing California off. I am appealing to the gun owners of California to fix thier problem before it spills over onto the rest of us. FWIW, I am with you rather you believe it or not. I will not, nor would I ask anyone else to dirty themselves by complying with the new registration scheme or subject themselves to the whims of California's judicial system if they improperly filled out a form.
Here is where you and I disagree, and I cannot see my mind being changed. You seem to believe that feeding the beast is the best way to defeat it.
I believe that hungry people are more likely to act.
Brad Steele
do you have references for this? I just started reading some of the old posts, seems like some here really dislike the NRA but dont really reference anything. I would like to make up my own mind on how I feel about them. Just like some have done concerning selling to california.
Fair enough Noonanda and I respect this reply from you.
I was actually expecting the normal "outrage" and "red haze of hate" that comes over most, when the vaunted NRA's actions are dragged into the light of day.
Later when I get back from some errands, I will dig up some past reference material, UNLESS someone else beats me to it.
Happy research.
Mayhap pickenup or someone else will post GB links to other sources previously posted here, some by me.
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBSearch.asp
Take your time and focus on the links that deal with "NRA".
Another question for the Cali-nonsellers. Why will you not sell C&R items to C&R licensed cali residents. You dont have to send the paperwork to Cali DOJ, we are exempt from that law? but then if someone wanted to transfer it through a dealer you would have to go through the same deal with DOJ, so in one way I do understand why, but still dont agree with it, and think it is helping the gun grabbers have their way with us
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=263795
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=287342
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=293108
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=293126
Hit this link and type NRA into the search engine there. It will provide dozens of informative articles and research peices on the real NRA, not their carefully polished and presented image.
Happy research.
Mayhap pickenup or someone else will post GB links to other sources previously posted here, some by me.
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBSearch.asp
Take your time and focus on the links that deal with "NRA".
The link you provide (keepandbeararms.com) has been around for several years. It's only purpose in life seems to be nothing more than to criticize the NRA. To test my statement, someone here should try and actually try joining Keep and Bear Arms and become a member just as they claim to already have members. I believe you will find they do not want members and do not want to attend to nor be accountable to members. Rather they would rather spew any and all anti-NRA propaganda that they chose with out being accountable to their "membership". You might also ask yourself why KeepandBear arms does not urge you to, while dropping your NRA support, redirect that support to another pro-gun rights organinaztion. But anyway, do as you like as you always do. Just thought you might want to hear at least some truth for awhile.
quote:Originally posted by lt496
Hit this link and type NRA into the search engine there. It will provide dozens of informative articles and research peices on the real NRA, not their carefully polished and presented image.
Happy research.
Mayhap pickenup or someone else will post GB links to other sources previously posted here, some by me.
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBSearch.asp
Take your time and focus on the links that deal with "NRA".
The link you provide (keepandbeararms.com) has been around for several years. It's only purpose in life seems to be nothing more than to criticize the NRA. To test my statement, someone here should try and actually try joining Keep and Bear Arms and become a member just as they claim to already have members. I believe you will find they do not want members and do not want to attend to nor be accountable to members. Rather they would rather spew any and all anti-NRA propaganda that they chose with out being accountable to their "membership". You might also ask yourself why KeepandBear arms does not urge you to, while dropping your NRA support, redirect that support to another pro-gun rights organinaztion. But anyway, do as you like as you always do. Just thought you might want to hear at least some truth for awhile.
Is there a refutation of any of the listed NRA information in your ramble, tr? Didn't think so.....
Classic diversion and misdirection, as usual.
Try to divert attention from the issue, so that it isn't looked at, then simultaneously cast doubt/aspersion on the messenger, or source..
Go figure...
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by lt496
Hit this link and type NRA into the search engine there. It will provide dozens of informative articles and research peices on the real NRA, not their carefully polished and presented image.
Happy research.
Mayhap pickenup or someone else will post GB links to other sources previously posted here, some by me.
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBSearch.asp
Take your time and focus on the links that deal with "NRA".
The link you provide (keepandbeararms.com) has been around for several years. It's only purpose in life seems to be nothing more than to criticize the NRA. To test my statement, someone here should try and actually try joining Keep and Bear Arms and become a member just as they claim to already have members. I believe you will find they do not want members and do not want to attend to nor be accountable to members. Rather they would rather spew any and all anti-NRA propaganda that they chose with out being accountable to their "membership". You might also ask yourself why KeepandBear arms does not urge you to, while dropping your NRA support, redirect that support to another pro-gun rights organinaztion. But anyway, do as you like as you always do. Just thought you might want to hear at least some truth for awhile.
Is there a refutation of any of the listed NRA information in your ramble, tr? Didn't think so.....
Classic diversion and misdirection, as usual.
Try to divert attention from the issue, so that it isn't looked at, then simultaneously cast doubt/aspersion on the messenger, or source..
Go figure...
If my claim and suggesedt course of action to test my claim is true, then I would not consider that to any kind of "classic diversion and misdirection." Instead I would consider that an honest and fair warning that you may be being influenced by nothing more than a phony propaganda mill.
Although I believe that would satisfy most of the anti-NRA crew that lives in this cave.
One really need only look at actual NRA actions and positions while using Amendment II as a yardstick. That pretty much says it all.
Once again I ask, do you have anything to offer that refutes any of the NRA information, or are you merely offering a different version of your old, tired misdirection and diversion/malign the messenger tactic?
Here is a link that quotes the NRA from their own magazine. That good enough for you tr?
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=293126
Keepandbeararms is merely one source tr, a source that has gathered scarce and/or closely guarded information about the NRA's historic support for gun control and then packaged it up, so that average people can find it and be educated.
One really need only look at actual NRA actions and positions while using Amendment II as a yardstick. That pretty much says it all.
Once again I ask, do you have anything to offer that refutes any of the NRA information, or are you merely offering a different version of your old, tired misdirection and diversion/malign the messenger tactic?
Here is a link that quotes the NRA from their own magazine. That good enough for you tr?
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=293126
You apparently want to cloud the situation and my position. I did not attempt to engage you in the never ending debate about how "evil" the NRA is. I merely tried to offer an honest comment that perhaps, just perhaps, you were being influenced by an organization that is nothing but a propaganda mill to criticize the NRA. In my case, I will always try to avoid being influenced by a strictly propaganda mill and will seek and believe other sources.
Apparently for you and the other Canary *, ANY anti-NRA source is a "good" source. As I expected I am sure you will continue to enjoy and distribute such propaganda so enjoy.
BTW, may I just refer to you and the others as "*" to save bandwidth?
quote:Originally posted by lt496
Keepandbeararms is merely one source tr, a source that has gathered scarce and/or closely guarded information about the NRA's historic support for gun control and then packaged it up, so that average people can find it and be educated.
One really need only look at actual NRA actions and positions while using Amendment II as a yardstick. That pretty much says it all.
Once again I ask, do you have anything to offer that refutes any of the NRA information, or are you merely offering a different version of your old, tired misdirection and diversion/malign the messenger tactic?
Here is a link that quotes the NRA from their own magazine. That good enough for you tr?
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=293126
You apparently want to cloud the situation and my position. I did not attempt to engage you in the never ending debate about how "evil" the NRA is. I merely tried to offer an honest comment that perhaps, just perhaps, you were being influenced by an organization that is nothing but a propaganda mill to criticize the NRA. In my case, I will always try to be influenced by a strictly propaganda mill and will seek and believe other sources.
Apparently for you and the other Canary *, ANY anti-NRA source is a "good" source. As I expected I am sure you will continue to enjoy and distribute such propaganda so enjoy.
Once again, do you offer any facts that dispute the information that has you so concerned, or is it that the information is posted on keepandbeararms.com, that has your panties in a wad.
Speaking of a "propaganda mill", propaganda is nothing more than "the systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause".
The only issue with "propaganda" is when it is materially false. Show me where this NRA information is false please.
Stay focused tr, it isn't about the "organization, that is hosting the website, it is about the "information" "found" there.
Also, this is not the only source of information about actual NRA actions. The NRA itself AND many of your own past postings refer to their actions which are contrary to Amendment II.
Now, show any of the reading audience exactly where and why this information is flawed, otherwise it is nothing more than misdirection and diversion on your part.
Coming from you and your collectivist perspective tr, I would consider it a compliment.[;)]
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by lt496
Keepandbeararms is merely one source tr, a source that has gathered scarce and/or closely guarded information about the NRA's historic support for gun control and then packaged it up, so that average people can find it and be educated.
One really need only look at actual NRA actions and positions while using Amendment II as a yardstick. That pretty much says it all.
Once again I ask, do you have anything to offer that refutes any of the NRA information, or are you merely offering a different version of your old, tired misdirection and diversion/malign the messenger tactic?
Here is a link that quotes the NRA from their own magazine. That good enough for you tr?
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=293126
You apparently want to cloud the situation and my position. I did not attempt to engage you in the never ending debate about how "evil" the NRA is. I merely tried to offer an honest comment that perhaps, just perhaps, you were being influenced by an organization that is nothing but a propaganda mill to criticize the NRA. In my case, I will always try to be influenced by a strictly propaganda mill and will seek and believe other sources.
Apparently for you and the other Canary *, ANY anti-NRA source is a "good" source. As I expected I am sure you will continue to enjoy and distribute such propaganda so enjoy.
Once again, do you offer any facts that dispute the information that has you so concerned, or is it that the information is posted on keepandbeararms.com, that has your panties in a wad.
Speaking of a "propaganda mill", propaganda is nothing more than "the systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause".
The only issue with "propaganda" is when it is materially false. Show me where this NRA information is false please.
Stay focused tr, it isn't about the "organization, that is hosting the website, it is about the "information" "found" there.
Also, this is not the only source of information about actual NRA actions. The NRA itself AND many of your own past postings refer to their actions which are contrary to Amendment II.
Now, show any of the reading audience exactly where and why this information is flawed, otherwise it is nothing more than misdirection and diversion on your part.
In red above. I have no interest in spending much time or effort as you suggest in red above. Once again I stress that from my own personal experiences I have noticed that the website you mentioned exists solely for the purpose of criticizing the NRA. If someone spends significent time, money and effort to operate a website that had the only purpose of criticizing you, I would be supicious of that website, regardless of how I might feel about you. But you and the other * (thanks for official permission to use that term) apparently are anxious to find and believe any anti-NRA information from just any anti-NRA site
You should also wonder why, if that website is pro-gun rights, as opposed to just being anti-NRA (hell, the anti-gun crowd and the liberal media are also anti-NRA but I hope you don't let them brainwash you also) then why doesn't it encourage or offer the visitors to that site some constructive alternatives, other than the NRA, to divert their efforts in order to help the fight for gun rights?.
quote:BTW, may I just refer to you and the others as "*" to save bandwidth?
Coming from you and your collectivist perspective tr, I would consider it a compliment.[;)]
Well then I shall "compliment" you and yours often.
You should also wonder why, if that website is pro-gun rights, as opposed to just being anti-NRA (hell, the anti-gun crowd and the liberal media are also anti-NRA but I hope you don't let them brainwash you also) then why doesn't it encourage or offer the visitors to that site some constructive alternatives, other than the NRA, to divert their efforts in order to help the fight for gun rights?.
"KeepAndBearArms.com is a grassroots movement of the people, by the people, and for the people. It is a call to action, a call for self-education, and a 21 gun salute to the many good men and women who fought and died to bring America into being.
This web site is about helping lawful people maintain their abilities to protect themselves and the people they love effectively from anyone who would do them harm - through legal, private ownership and use of guns. We also stand for the repealing of all gun laws which infringe on the civil rights of peaceable women and men to defend their own lives and property."
The above descriptor is what Keep and Bear Arms is about, contrary to your claim that they, as you say, "exist solely for the purpose of criticizing the NRA".
The organization has a huge variety of information and links, only a few which deal with anti-NRA information. They focus on Amendment II issues through current events articles, news, topic specific editorial and many, many other methods.
You are factually wrong and you deliberately disparage this organization to attempt to discredit the information they have compiled on 'actual' NRA actions, over the history of the NRA.
KBA is a no-compromise organization and as such, they find that groups like the NRA and other compromise and gun-control supporting orgs, are detrimental to the Republic.
Their reporting fact, simply threatens you and your cult, the NRA.
It is what it is and once again, tr, your * is showing.
You should also wonder why, if that website is pro-gun rights, as opposed to just being anti-NRA (hell, the anti-gun crowd and the liberal media are also anti-NRA but I hope you don't let them brainwash you also) then why doesn't it encourage or offer the visitors to that site some constructive alternatives, other than the NRA, to divert their efforts in order to help the fight for gun rights?. End quote from trfox....
Post/quote from lt496: "KeepAndBearArms.com is a grassroots movement of the people, by the people, and for the people. It is a call to action, a call for self-education, and a 21 gun salute to the many good men and women who fought and died to bring America into being.
This web site is about helping lawful people maintain their abilities to protect themselves and the people they love effectively from anyone who would do them harm - through legal, private ownership and use of guns. We also stand for the repealing of all gun laws which infringe on the civil rights of peaceable women and men to defend their own lives and property."
The above descriptor is what Keep and Bear Arms is about, contrary to your claim that they, as you say, "exist solely for the purpose of criticizing the NRA".
The organization has a huge variety of information and links, only a few which deal with anti-NRA information. They focus on Amendment II issues through current events articles, news, topic specific editorial and many, many other methods.
You are factually wrong and you deliberately disparage this organization to attempt to discredit the information they have compiled on 'actual' NRA actions, over the history of the NRA.
KBA is a no-compromise organization and as such, they find that groups like the NRA and other compromise and gun-control supporting orgs, are detrimental to the Republic.
Their reporting fact, simply threatens you and your cult, the NRA.
It is what it is and once again, tr, your * is showing.
Well tr, I'm still waiting for you to 'man-up' and 'step-up' here.
You made a clear statement about the organization, keepandbeararms.com, which is provable false.
How about surprising me and admitting that you simply made it up, in an attempt to discredit the information by discrediting the organization that posted it?
You remember, don't you tr, that old "misdirecting" and "diverting" thingy that I said you were doing?[:o)]
Ranting and raving by those who claim they will take extreme measures they never intend to carry out was never the intent here. Rantings and ravings seldom make change, cooler heads will always prevail...
The argument that my money is just as good as anyone else's is a good point. Luckily I seem to have found dealers and individuals who will work with me on the firearms I want and they will make their profit and I will get a price I like. I hope to see others follow suit, they can get our money too.
Ahh, yes..money.
Forget the fact that you boys have ceased crawling to beg to buy a gun..now you inch along on your bellies like a worm.
But now you wave handfuls of hundred dollar bills...hoping that OTHERS will join you down there.
Naturally..there ALWAYS are those that will join you in whatever cesspool you exist in, in order to 'get them bucks'...
No surprise..none at all.