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Celebrate?

chaoslodgechaoslodge Member Posts: 790 ✭✭✭✭
The NRA-ILA is celebrating yet another "victory." They are thrilled that the Dept of the Interior has seen fit to graciously allow concealed carry in parks.

While part of me is indeed glad this is not something I will be required to act in a "criminal" manner to do anymore, wasn't I perfectly within my rights to have a weapon there or anywhere else in the first place?

Comments

  • rkba4everrkba4ever Member Posts: 815 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    See - we've been conditioned to think that by actually allowing us to excersize our rights, it's victory. Feels kinda hollow, eh?
  • wsfiredudewsfiredude Member Posts: 7,769 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    While part of me is indeed glad this is not something I will be required to act in a "criminal" manner to do anymore, wasn't I perfectly within my rights to have a weapon there or anywhere else in the first place?


    Yes, you were and are well within your rights as an American citizen to carry as you see fit.

    As far as acting in a 'criminal' manner, the only ones who stand guilty as charged regarding this issue are those who subverted the Constitution, not you.[;)]
  • steve45steve45 Member Posts: 2,920 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yes you have a higher constitutional right to carry a gun in a National Park. That would'nt have kept you from paying a penalty had you been caught with one before. The NRA has helped to get things closer to the way it should be. Its a positive step.
  • chaosrobchaosrob Member Posts: 1,871 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    lololololololololol
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    My, my such digust and contempt for the NRA and for people who, as a last resort, work towards getting some of our gun rights back by lobbying, getting CCW passed, etc.

    Those of you here who hold such actions in contempt, actions you consider beneath you as such actions only exhibt you catering to the "beast", should out of honesty just plain refuse to take advantage of the gains people like me and the NRA have made for you. Hell, yeah. Be loud and proud and refuse to obtain a CCW license and refuse to take advantage of your new right to carry in federal parks and such.

    Because if you loudly criticize people like me and the NRA, who don't like it but who do try to work with the system to expand our rights, then if you still go ahead and avail your self of the rights that we win, then you are nothing but hypocrits.

    So, which is it going to be? Chose the moral high ground and refuse to get a CCW license and refuse the right to carry in federal parks. Or continue to be hypocrits, critize and then go ahead and enjoy your new rights?

    I believe you will come down on the side of being hypocrits.
  • quickmajikquickmajik Member Posts: 16,324
    edited November -1
    Someone here a fly?
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    "A well regulated Militia, being neccessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

    My Rights trump your permissions.

    Free speech..isn't it wonderful how weak little men have the same voice as the strong.
  • wsfiredudewsfiredude Member Posts: 7,769 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    originally posted by trfox:

    So, which is it going to be? Chose the moral high ground and refuse to get a CCW license and refuse the right to carry in federal parks.

    How about this option. Refuse to get a CCW and carry anyway. You know; exercise the RTKBA because it is your right to do so.
  • chaosrobchaosrob Member Posts: 1,871 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by wsfiredude
    originally posted by trfox:

    So, which is it going to be? Chose the moral high ground and refuse to get a CCW license and refuse the right to carry in federal parks.

    How about this option. Refuse to get a CCW and carry anyway. You know; exercise the RTKBA because it is your right to do so.
    that would be a fine idea if there was any sense of loyalty, community and brotherhood in the us. You would do that, get thrown in jail while everyone else on the internet talked about how you were innocent, but wouldn't make a stand to help you
  • wsfiredudewsfiredude Member Posts: 7,769 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    that would be a fine idea if there was any sense of loyalty, community and brotherhood in the us. You would do that, get thrown in jail while everyone else on the internet talked about how you were innocent, but wouldn't make a stand to help you.

    chaosrob,

    I understand what you mean, and if the majority of folks would simply exercise their rights, a difference may be made. However, I do not exercise my rights based upon how many others do, and I am not looking for any help. Only one person is responsible for my action(s), and that person is me.
  • chaoslodgechaoslodge Member Posts: 790 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    As for ignoring any restrictions, I certainly have done that most of my life. Anyone who knows a bit about me (it is east to find out with a quick search) knows I have had very little regard for laws. I am only constrained to follow them now out of my paternal duty to my children since a confrontation would punish them more than me. I carried for years without any permission.

    chaosrob (nice name by the way) is right.

    There is no real solidarity on this issue otherwise someone jailed for exercising their right that is protected by the Constitution would result in a mob in the street demanding his or her release. When I worked for far less savory people than even most politicians can be lumped with, I knew that as long as I did my job, if anything were to happen to me, my wife, would be looked after and everything possible would be done to do right by me in a court of law. Amazing that criminals can have that kind of solidarity when people who profess to only want to exercise their rights under the law of the land are completely without any loyalty to one another.
  • chaosrobchaosrob Member Posts: 1,871 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by wsfiredude
    that would be a fine idea if there was any sense of loyalty, community and brotherhood in the us. You would do that, get thrown in jail while everyone else on the internet talked about how you were innocent, but wouldn't make a stand to help you.

    chaosrob,

    I understand what you mean, and if the majority of folks would simply exercise their rights, a difference may be made. However, I do not exercise my rights based upon how many others do, and I am not looking for any help. Only one person is responsible for my action(s), and that person is me.
    I agree and I can tell you right now with 100% assurance if you ever need my help for you excercising your constitutional rights I will be there if I am notified. My word is my bond and I would do so for any free loving citizen. I would do all I could to help, even if I am the only one who shows up to makean effort.
  • wsfiredudewsfiredude Member Posts: 7,769 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    My word is my bond and I would do so for any free loving citizen. I would do all I could to help, even if I am the only one who shows up to makean effort.

    and I believe you.

    You're a good man chaos. Both of you (rob and lodge)[;)]
  • rkba4everrkba4ever Member Posts: 815 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by tr fox
    My, my such digust and contempt for the NRA and for people who, as a last resort, work towards getting some of our gun rights back by lobbying, getting CCW passed, etc.

    How is begging for permission to carry getting our rights back? Isn't that more like asking dad for permission to take the car? A privilege, not a right.

    quote: should out of honesty just plain refuse to take advantage of the gains people like me and the NRA have made for you.

    People like you....hmmmmmmmmm so tell me, just how ere "people like you" involved? Sending dues to pay ol' Waynes salary? Were you an active participant? Still more of the same from you. A sychophant, trumpeting the glory of the NRA, or maybe pimpin' for them. Once again, this isn't getting our rights back, it merely codifies the image of them being government granted privilegs.

    quote:Because if you loudly criticize people like me and the NRA, who don't like it but who do try to work with the system to expand our rights, then if you still go ahead and avail your self of the rights that we win, then you are nothing but hypocrits.

    Mr. Pot. meet Mr. Kettle. Once again, nothing has been done to expand rights, a point you seem completely incapable of comprehending.

    quote:So, which is it going to be? Chose the moral high ground and refuse to get a CCW license and refuse the right to carry in federal parks. Or continue to be hypocrits, critize and then go ahead and enjoy your new rights?.

    These rights aren't new, I cannot even fathom how you can consider this a new right [xx(] when the constitution itself says to keep (ya know, posess) and bear (meaning 'to carry', hmm..... carry, sounds familiar...... right to carry, hey that sounds like a match!! I think the second amendment means we have a right to carry!!) and that document is alot older than this "new right" - not exactly new, there fella.


    quote:I believe you will come down on the side of being hypocrits.


    And you, once again, come down on the side of those who view gun owning as a privilege subject to the whims of government, and those who trumpet so loudly about every so called victory that only further erodes constitutional liberty
  • 45long45long Member Posts: 642 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It's interesting to hear the different sides to the CCW argument. What I find really funny is how those who oppose any form of permission seem to give the impression that this is a realativly new restriction. It's not. Many cities restricted the carrying of firearms way before the modern ages. Way before the first National restrictions on Automatic weapons. Many cities of the "old west" had restrictions on the carrying of firearms within the city limits. Fines were imposed and possible jail time could be involved. The most famous possibly was Tombstone. And in THAT time it may have actually helpped. But then thier situation was different than it is today.

    My point is, this is not a new problem. It has been around for over 100 years. And so far, no ground has been gained in getting any of the restrictions reversed to any great extent. And while I do applaud those who choose to flaunt the law and do as the they please constitutionally speaking, I will choose to try and remain within the law untill a time when I can no longer do so. That time hasn't happened yet. I wish those well that go forward with their constitutional rights and carry what they want when they want. And if possible, I will try to donate what I can to their defense fund in the local area should someone locally have need of help. That is all I can do.
  • chaosrobchaosrob Member Posts: 1,871 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by wsfiredude
    My word is my bond and I would do so for any free loving citizen. I would do all I could to help, even if I am the only one who shows up to makean effort.

    and I believe you.

    You're a good man chaos. Both of you (rob and lodge)[;)]
    thank you sir, I appreciate the kind words.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    quote:My point is, this is not a new problem. It has been around for over 100 years. And so far, no ground has been gained in getting any of the restrictions reversed to any great extent. And while I do applaud those
    Splendid. You finally recognize my argument.
    Gun control, along with literally thousands of other infringements on the Constitution and Bill of Rights, has brought us to a nexus.

    The faster the scum bag Elites move their program along...the sooner we all can wade into the river of blood necessary to regain freedom for this country.
  • chaosrobchaosrob Member Posts: 1,871 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Highball
    quote:My point is, this is not a new problem. It has been around for over 100 years. And so far, no ground has been gained in getting any of the restrictions reversed to any great extent. And while I do applaud those
    Splendid. You finally recognize my argument.
    Gun control, along with literally thousands of other infringements on the Constitution and Bill of Rights, has brought us to a nexus.

    The faster the scum bag Elites move their program along...the sooner we all can wade into the river of blood necessary to regain freedom for this country.

    Just a quick question for you hb, and you do not have to answer (obviously) if you do not desire to. Have you ever taken another persons life?

    The last thing I ever want is anarchy, and pain. If it amounts to that so be it, gods wil be done, but I have no lust in my heart for it. It will never stand in my way of doing what has to be done, but to me it is the absolute last option.

    Even if we feel/know the people who we deal with are unscrupulous toads, do we not owe it to ourselves and our conscience to try all peaceful means first.?

    I understand about their indifference to our constitution, the thing the majority on this site hold near and dear, but we have not exhausted our means under the constitution. We have not made our voices heard, and presence felt. We sit by, and plan, and run through scenarios, but never take the action thatis appropriate for the times.

    We have an obligation to guide our leaders through their tenure, and we have failed miserably at this. voting for one party or another isn't the way we do this. With each leader representing far more people than was ever planned it is easy to se how they can fail a great number of people.

    Members of a republi have a much greater duty than to show up at the polls, they must make their views known enmasse to theirelected reps when they start to get out of hand. Let's work together and break the two party system and get real representation back into the hands of the people. We have the power, but by and large we fail ourselves when the chips are down. Let's change that FIRST, before the other options become the only reality
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    quote:Just a quick question for you hb, and you do not have to answer (obviously) if you do not desire to. Have you ever taken another persons life?
    I have been in the company of death on more then one occasion.
    I have no `lust' to see or participate in more.

    I also recognize that the Founders left us with a duty ..that duty is to protect and defend the Constitution and Bill of Rights...and thereby defend America.

    Every area of American values, beliefs, ideals that possibly can be perverted, assaulted, degraded, trampled upon, or ignored is steadily expanding ..and every system set up by the Founders to protect the country has been dismantled or corrupted.

    Why ever should I be cynical. I wonder.
  • 45long45long Member Posts: 642 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Chaosrob,, Actually that first quote was not by HB. But by me.
    "My point is, this is not a new problem. It has been around for over 100 years. And so far, no ground has been gained in getting any of the restrictions reversed to any great extent. And while I do applaud those "

    And I was referring to that fact that restrictions on firearms is not a new problem. It is one that has been around for over a century. And as our population has grown, so has the restrictions with no end in sight with the possible exception of HB's wadeing through the bloody river. Which know sane man would ever want to do except as a last resort. And while I too have been in the "company of death", I have yet had to kill someone. But given the right circumstances, I have no doubt that I would.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Do you folks begin to understand the utter futility of what you speak ?
    quote:Members of a republi have a much greater duty than to show up at the polls, they must make their views known enmasse to theirelected reps when they start to get out of hand. Let's work together and break the two party system and get real representation back into the hands of the people
    We cannot gain consensus among GUN FOLK about the meaning of the Second Amendment ..witness these forums.

    A tiny band of us hold out against determined opposition ..a steady onslaught attacking us from every angle that the human mind can conceive of.
    No...not from the Bradys' ..from GUN OWNERS ..determined to drive the truth about it underground to better suit their own fears and inadequacies.

    REFUSING to admit the clear meaning of that document ..and embracing a government that murders its own citizens ..burning and gassing and machine gunning to death men, women, and children. Shooting to death women holding their babies....God, sometimes I think I fell asleep and woke up in Nazi Germany, 1940.

    I tell you...I am not asking, here...you may well gain a bit of ground here or there.

    While you are doing so, breaking you heart, your spirit, and your bankroll ..after all...you fund BOTH sides of the battle ..the enemy has gained half of your house.....
  • chaosrobchaosrob Member Posts: 1,871 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by 45long
    Chaosrob,, Actually that first quote was not by HB. But by me.
    "My point is, this is not a new problem. It has been around for over 100 years. And so far, no ground has been gained in getting any of the restrictions reversed to any great extent. And while I do applaud those "

    And I was referring to that fact that restrictions on firearms is not a new problem. It is one that has been around for over a century. And as our population has grown, so has the restrictions with no end in sight with the possible exception of HB's wadeing through the bloody river. Which know sane man would ever want to do except as a last resort. And while I too have been in the "company of death", I have yet had to kill someone. But given the right circumstances, I have no doubt that I would.
    Thanks for the clarification .45. I did not mean to insinuate that anyne was blood tirsty, maybe I haven't quite reached the end of my rope yet. No disrespect to anyone, nor am I shy of a fight if need be. I would just LOVE to see people show up in respectable numbers to events that could have a good impact on our cause.

    Even if we KNOW that it will make no difference to the politicians I FEEL that it would have a great bonding/confidence booster for those who themselves are shy to take the first step on their own. Show people they are not alone, and I believe they would become more comfortable with their position. There has been times that I felt like an outcast of society for my views. People on the fence sometimes need a little push to fall on the right side of an issue
  • 45long45long Member Posts: 642 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Chaosrob,,,

    Yeah I feel the same as you. we need to do what we can on the local because I think the national level is lost. But if we can keep the fire burning locally, then when the time comes maybe we can actually have someone to turn to and band together with. And your right, we need to find poeple and let them know they are not alone. There are people of like mind that they can rely on. I am not as outwardly passionate about my believe in the 2nd as some. And I don't rant about marching off to war. But when it comes to me, I will be ready. I load as much as I can afford. And I practice as times allows. I don't have alot, but I have what I can afford. AS do we all. The next four years will be very hard on us all. Maybe in that time we can stop fighting amongst ourselves and start to come together as one. Some will have to temer their ferver while some will have to step up. But if some conssessions are not reached between ourselves, how can we ever expect to gain anything on a state or national level. And if all hell did break loose, we better be one or all will be lost.
  • Jim RauJim Rau Member Posts: 3,550
    edited November -1
    HB,
    You did not answer the question, but that's your right![:)]
    45,
    You are correct. I see any movement in the 'right' direction as good. I am a 'glass half full' kind of guy![;)]
    If you do look at the history of gun control you will note two things.
    1. Most of the 'disarmament' statutes were placed on the books by a political machine to disarm the opposition.
    2. Police officer used A LOT more discretion in the enforcement of these statutes in years past. Now most cops don't use this discretion wisely, and many have the discretion removed by 'zero tolerance' policies.[V]
  • brickmaster1248brickmaster1248 Member Posts: 3,344
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau


    ....You are correct. I see any movement in the 'right' direction as good. I am a 'glass half full' kind of guy![;)]
    [V]


    http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/1082293.html
    State official wary of repeal of gun ban in U.S. parks
    By DAVE MONTGOMERY
    [email protected]

    AUSTIN - Texas Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson welcomed Monday the federal government's decision to lift a concealed-gun ban in national parks but expressed skepticism that it will remain in force under incoming President Barack Obama, a strong gun control advocate.

    Consequently, Patterson said in a telephone interview, he has no plans to relax his opposition to transferring the state's remote Christmas Mountains to the National Park Service until after Obama's Democratic administration sets up shop.

    The outspoken Republican land commissioner has been criticized for trying to sell the 14.5-square-mile tract to private bidders after the park service signaled an interest in acquiring it. Patterson said he opposed the transfer because of what he called an unconstitutional restriction on firearms.

    "I said, 'No guns, no hunting, no deal,'#8194;" Patterson told the Star-Telegram. "Now we have the Department of Interior doing the right thing. The question remains: Will the president leave that in place?

    "Before we make any moves on this positive development, we're going to have to see how that plays out."

    On Friday, the Interior Department overturned a 25-year-old regulation that restricts loaded guns in national parks. The rule, which takes effect in January, will allow visitors to carry a loaded, concealed weapon into most national parks and wildlife refuges. Gun-rights groups hailed the ruling.

    But Patterson suggested that the Bush administration reversal may not survive after Obama installs his team at the Interior Department. As a senator from Illinois, said Patterson, Obama talked "out of both sides of his mouth" in responding to a landmark Supreme Court ruling that struck down the District of Columbia's handgun ban and upheld an individual's right to a firearm for private use.

    Obama supported the D.C. ban but later endorsed the Supreme Court's decision, saying it "protects the right of individuals to bear arms."

    "Those are dramatically opposite positions," Patterson said. "I guess he's schizophrenic on the Second Amendment."

    Obama has also opposed state concealed-carry laws and has advocated reinstating a ban on assault weapons. According to a CNN.com review of his positions on gun control, Obama has said that while he believes in a constitutional right to bear arms, that "does not mean that the state or local government can't constrain the exercise of that right."

    Patterson's press secretary, John Suydam, said the park service has rebuffed past offers to acquire the Christmas Mountains as a federally protected site because of existing conservation protections that were in place when the land was donated by a private foundation in 1991.

    "In the past, they haven't been interested in spending their money to preserve something that is already preserved," he said.



    Sounds like your "victory" will be short lived. I could be wrong though.
  • Jim RauJim Rau Member Posts: 3,550
    edited November -1
    1248,
    This is what I see coming. Those who are attacking our 2nd Amendment Rights are shameless and ruthless. We are in for the fight of our life time. We have got to try and convince the 'masses' of the importance of 'their rights'! THIS GOING TO BE AN UPHILL BATTLE! As many are ignorant, and ther are far to many WHO JUST DON'T CARE!!![V]
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