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Highball- A question for you

Lonestar86Lonestar86 Member Posts: 130 ✭✭✭
Highball,

I am fairly new to this site, but have been reading your posts with much interest (sometimes I agree with you, sometimes I disagree) and regardless of my opinion, you have great insight and intellect on these subjects. Since you are well educated on this subject, I was wondering if you could give me your take on miltias and other sub-groups like the Posse Comitatus, Texas Republic, etc. I apologize if this is too general and lumps groups together that may not share common values except a few, but some public (the sheeple) perception is that they are essentially the same.

1. How effective are these groups in bringing about change in government policies and procedures in regard to American Liberties?

2. Are these groups mutually exclusive or a merger of like ideals and values based solely upon 2nd amendment freedoms?

3. What are the legal ramifications of membership in such groups?

4. A follow up to #3, what are the social costs of membership in both organizations?

5. Is there a real need or just a perceived need for such organizations?

Your thoughts?

Comments

  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    quote:1. How effective are these groups in bringing about change in government policies and procedures in regard to American Liberties?
    They forced the government to drop back a few steps in the mid-nineties on the path to tyranny.
    This was a disaster. The government merely learned ..well..and re-enforced and spent huge sums of money on methods and procedures that will in the end cost freedom fighters dearly in blood.
    There has been no net gain on Liberties from the modern militias.only a postponing of the inevitable.

    quote:2. Are these groups mutually exclusive or a merger of like ideals and values based solely upon 2nd amendment freedoms?The Second Amendment is broadly considered to be 'THE' trigger point ..as I understand the movement.
    Leaving out the KKK, the skinheads, the freak fringe, the bulk of these groups are decent, law-abiding people that do indeed share many common values ;
    Family, morals, honesty, ethics. Understand ..these are HUMANS ..and just as susceptible to temptation as the folks gathered up down to local bar. No supermen, here...
    They will come together in the event of a major collapse or broad scale attack from wherever.

    quote:3. What are the legal ramifications of membership in such groups?
    Gathered together down at the local 'choke and puke' to criticize the government ?
    None.
    Going to the field, drilling fully armed, throwing homemade grenades with illegal full autos ?
    Death by JBTs'.

    There is also a full range BETWEEN those two extremes...and it depends upon whose toes you step on in the process. At some point, if your group gets big enough, and talk about the Constitution in enough places...you WILL pay a price.


    quote:4. A follow up to #3, what are the social costs of membership in both organizations?
    Vast.
    You will be vilified, ostracized, and just in general not welcome in polite company.

    Odd thing, ehhh ? In a country formed and supposedly guided by the principles of Freedom ..you will be scorned for advocating that freedom.


    quote:5. Is there a real need or just a perceived need for such organizations?
    The last, forlorn hope for America.
    We are DONE as a free Nation, unless the remnant people come together soon.

    Now ;
    These are my OPINIONS, from studying the problem for 45 or so years.

    These `groups' you mention ..one MUST be VERY careful...for just as the KKK was infiltrated in the early 1900's and basically turned into a raciest organization... so too are all the National `freedom' movements taken oven and run by government agents.
  • Mr. FriendlyMr. Friendly Member Posts: 7,981
    edited November -1
    I still maintain that by sitting and waiting for the 2A "trigger" we are doing more harm than good.

    All of my rights are as important to me as the 2A. I still say we should organize a great march, local to our areas first, and let them grow every weekend. march every week on our local governments with once a moth going to our state governments, and every other month to the nations capitol.

    I dispise the thought of bloodshed when I still think it can be changed peacefully. It is amazing how many people will fall into something with others if someone just makes a move. It would grow in strength every week I think.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    quote:All of my rights are as important to me as the 2A. I still say we should organize a great march, local to our areas first, and let them grow every weekend. march every week on our local governments with once a moth going to our state governments, and every other month to the nations capitol.

    Sure ; Understood.
    The concept of a 'great march' is the problem.
    Is not going to happen.
    The bulk of the people in this country are so satiated with bread and circuses, there will be no popular 'peaceful uprising' ..no matter HOW much you and I wish it to happen.

    The next few months will prove me right on this...or wrong. The tea party movement is Nationwide...we shall see what we will see.
  • Hoosier71Hoosier71 Member Posts: 136 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It is much better, with a well regulated Militia, to run the Risk of a foreign Invasion, than, with a Standing Army, to run the Risk of Slavery. When an Army is sent to enforce Laws, it is always an Evidence that either the Law makers are conscious that they had no clear and indisputable Right to make those Laws, or that they are bad and oppressive. Wherever the people themselves have had a hand in making laws, according to the first principles of our constitution, there is no Danger of Non-submission, nor can there be Need of an Army to enforce them.

    Signed,

    Anonymous
  • Mr. FriendlyMr. Friendly Member Posts: 7,981
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Hoosier71
    It is much better, with a well regulated Militia, to run the Risk of a foreign Invasion, than, with a Standing Army, to run the Risk of Slavery. When an Army is sent to enforce Laws, it is always an Evidence that either the Law makers are conscious that they had no clear and indisputable Right to make those Laws, or that they are bad and oppressive. Wherever the people themselves have had a hand in making laws, according to the first principles of our constitution, there is no Danger of Non-submission, nor can there be Need of an Army to enforce them.

    Signed,

    Anonymous
    Great post!
  • nyforesternyforester Member Posts: 2,574 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Time will tell.

    Most likely nothing will happen except that things will get worse little by little.

    Well if nothing else, and if nothing does happen during this crisis that makes Patriots take arms and spill blood, the result will be that no nation, country, or large army (with the possible exception of China) will ever try to invade and take over this land by force.

    Currently, we are no doubt the most armed society on this planet !
    Abort Cuomo
  • Lonestar86Lonestar86 Member Posts: 130 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Good stuff gentleman.

    HighBall-Thanks for the response, a couple of your responses were very much what I was thinking, but you never know how much validity they hold until you bounce them off other people (even then they may still only hold as much water as a shot glass, (my thoughts, not yours)).

    I am still not sure if these groups are patriots or the lunatic fringe. At times I agree they are human and flawed, but standing up for liberty, and at other times I feel they are worse then our current situation. Having grown up in ND and now living in TX I have heard and seen their rhetoric, and some of their acts (Medina ND, Waco, and multiple other minor clashes with the Gov. Maybe I haven't given up on the idea of "Loyal Opposition" or am just naive, but the people on the front lines on both sides are NOT the policy makers, they are the tools and policies of others. Unfortunately, they are the officers being killed in the line of duty enforcing "questionable" laws, and many of the liberty seekers are the ones following the rhetoric of fringe leaders with little regard or thought to what their leader(s) true agenda may be. It would be nice to finally see a LEO (Federal, local or state) say this is nuts, enforce it yourself, or a liberty group member question what/why his leader(s) is asking them to sacrifice.

    Thanks for the responses all, good debate.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Lonestar;
    Best understand..there has been NO legitimate militia group involved in ANY shoot out here in America...yet.
    Do NOT equate the david Koreshes of the world with the militia.

    Night and day.

    The skin-heads you see being interviewed on TV are carefully picked out BY that media to represent..and smear..the real militias in this country.
    'Militia' is not about Jews, or Blacks, or Woman Priests, or Latinos...they are about the Constitution and the obedience TO that Constitution by the government.
    Those Militias are the final, desperate straw to be clutched before we drown in a sea of corruption and power-mad hollow men...
  • Lonestar86Lonestar86 Member Posts: 130 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Highball
    Lonestar;
    Best understand..there has been NO legitimate militia group involved in ANY shoot out here in America...yet.
    Do NOT equate the david Koreshes of the world with the militia.

    Night and day.

    The skin-heads you see being interviewed on TV are carefully picked out BY that media to represent..and smear..the real militias in this country.
    'Militia' is not about Jews, or Blacks, or Woman Priests, or Latinos...they are about the Constitution and the obedience TO that Constitution by the government.
    Those Militias are the final, desperate straw to be clutched before we drown in a sea of corruption and power-mad hollow men...


    I will concede your points, well stated, Waco was a bad example. And I agree, they are not about races, creeds, etc. I never meant to push that idea, my apologies if you thought I was moving in that direction, I wasn't.
    I guess I am more interested in the connection between the Militias and Posse/Republic groups. They seem to carry somewhat similiar agendas, but the later are more fringe and are willing to use force to subject their ideals and views. Do you see these groups making direct connections to further both agendas? And what will this do to the credibility of the miltias?

    Another subject, but related since you mentioned the skinheads, What are your thoughts on the Minutemen recruiting skinheads on their border "patrols"? Seems like a dangerous marriage of convience?
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    quote: Militias and Posse/Republic groups You may enlighten me here as to your meaning ?
    Are you discussing the movements out there forming to separate individual States from the Federal government ?


    quote:Another subject, but related since you mentioned the skinheads, What are your thoughts on the Minutemen recruiting skinheads on their border "patrols"? Seems like a dangerous marriage of convience?
    AS FOR this...I reject it out of hand.
    The Minutemen SCREEN their people..at least the REAL group does. They would never allow a avowed skinhead in.
    I know several Minutemen..I trust them...and they have so informed me.

    Where are you getting such information ?
  • Lonestar86Lonestar86 Member Posts: 130 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Highball
    quote: Militias and Posse/Republic groups You may enlighten me here as to your meaning ?
    Are you discussing the movements out there forming to separate individual States from the Federal government ?


    quote:Another subject, but related since you mentioned the skinheads, What are your thoughts on the Minutemen recruiting skinheads on their border "patrols"? Seems like a dangerous marriage of convience?
    AS FOR this...I reject it out of hand.
    The Minutemen SCREEN their people..at least the REAL group does. They would never allow a avowed skinhead in.
    I know several Minutemen..I trust them...and they have so informed me.

    Where are you getting such information ?


    From a gentleman I work with who is also part of the Minutemen, he stands for and agrees with what you said wholeheartedly, but said branches in NM and more so in AZ. are resorting to this to bolster their numbers and coverage of the border. He is worried things are going to get more violent and uproot their cause. He said some senior leaders in the group are turning a blind eye to the actions of some groups doing this.

    The Posse came out of the farm crisis in the 80's (basicly a tax/gov revolt group) whereby many in the midwest started to only recognize gov. at the county level and below. They refused to bowdown to state and federal laws. Gordon Kahl in Medina, ND was a national figure when he shot several federal marshall's and I believe a county deputy that tried to arrest him. He was harbored by several Miltia leaders (at that time) in Iowa, Missouri, Kansas,and the Dakotas until he was killed in a shoot out at one of the Missouri leaders home. I don't guarantee all these facts, It's been over 25 years since this happened, google to ensure I am stating it correctly. But the Posse is on the rise in the Midwest again, and I was wondering if there was still a connection to the Miltias as the Posse is taking a more Constitutional side to todays issues.

    TX Republic, pretty straight forward, they want out and become their own country and feel TX has the only legitimate stance since it was once a soverign nation and illegally accepted invitation to the US based on unfulfilled (by the US Gov.) conditions set by the TX legislature in 1845. Again, The Republic is aligning with militia groups here in TX based on flyers I have been receiving at gun shows, and whispers (and some rumors) I hear at the range. Just wanted to know your 2 cents on these groups and their connection to the Miltia movement.

    Thanks
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