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Conceal carry in schools
Lonestar86
Member Posts: 130 ✭✭✭
A little back ground before the question. I am a principal in a small TX school. Community with very strong rural, southern traditions, We give pops, still recognize CHRISTmas and Easter with programs/parties/CHRISTmas trees, expect our kiddos to say sir and Ma'am so please save the government brainwashing depository rhetoric for another thread please, I'll gladly discuss that topic but just not here please.
QUESTION: Today a couple administrators were debating conceal carry by teachers. Evidently a school in Wichita Falls, TX considered allowing this. What are ya'll's thoughts? Good idea/Bad idea?, Safety concerns?, How does this fit into our society today?
QUESTION: Today a couple administrators were debating conceal carry by teachers. Evidently a school in Wichita Falls, TX considered allowing this. What are ya'll's thoughts? Good idea/Bad idea?, Safety concerns?, How does this fit into our society today?
Comments
What I notice going on is most shootings happen on Government property. This is where the gunman feels there is likely to be no one armed. If a gunman feels threatened as though he/she may not be able to carry out their objective due to resistance. Then they may be more likely to go do something else.
Generally teachers love their students and would do anything to teach, protect, and help send them off into the right direction.
I would also feel more comfortable with my childrens lives in the hands of someone able to defend them, in case of such a thing. I can't be there to protect my children at all times. But a teacher could.
I think it should be mandatory nation wide. Every teacher should have a back ground check done on them. Trained on how to use them safely. To be kept and concealed on them at all times with out discussion with the students. Perhaps kept unloaded with rounds on stripper clips ready to go. For added safety. Gun must have safty on it. (not first choice for carry)
What I notice going on is most shootings happen on Government property. This is where the gunman feels there is likely to be no one armed. If a gunman feels threatened as though he/she may not be able to carry out their objective due to resistance. Then they may be more likely to go do something else.
Generally teachers love their students and would do anything to teach, protect, and help send them off into the right direction.
I would also feel more comfortable with my childrens lives in the hands of someone able to defend them, in case of such a thing. I can't be there to protect my children at all times. But a teacher could.
Thats's a great response
Its up to the community in which you reside. I believe the only way it is truely affective is if the teacher carries in the open. If the students don't see it they don't know about that authority over them. Concealed laws have proven to do nothing to reduce crime, becuase criminals don't see a gun. Those communities that have started to carry on the hip have seen a major reduction. But, there are no studies that show the effect of a teacher with a gun in the classroom, so it really is all speculative.
If its a known fact that all teachers carry across America. Then there is no need to carry in the open. Further more a gun used for authority over a students head is just insain.
I'll go with this
College hip (If teacher/professor has chosen to do so) and if its legal.
Through high school concealed
Concealed laws have proven to do nothing to reduce crime, becuase criminals don't see a gun.
Say what?
There have been multiple studies that PROVE that when enacted, CONCEALED CARRY LAWS DO REDUCE the violent crime rate.
An FBI report confirms that violent crime rates are lower in states with Right-to-Carry (RTC) laws. In 2005, RTC states had, on average, 22% lower total violent crime, 30% less murder, 46% lower robbery, and 12% lower aggravated assault rates, compared to the rest of the country.
quote:Originally posted by Thalvorson
Concealed laws have proven to do nothing to reduce crime, becuase criminals don't see a gun.
Say what?
There have been multiple studies that PROVE that when enacted, CONCEALED CARRY LAWS DO REDUCE the violent crime rate.
An FBI report confirms that violent crime rates are lower in states with Right-to-Carry (RTC) laws. In 2005, RTC states had, on average, 22% lower total violent crime, 30% less murder, 46% lower robbery, and 12% lower aggravated assault rates, compared to the rest of the country.
That's interesting, I have never heard or seen that before, I would be very interested in more info. Pickenup, can you please provide me with some documentation on that? Government reports would be the most credible "politically", but anything would be appreciated.
Its up to the community in which you reside. I believe the only way it is truely affective is if the teacher carries in the open. If the students don't see it they don't know about that authority over them. Concealed laws have proven to do nothing to reduce crime, becuase criminals don't see a gun. Those communities that have started to carry on the hip have seen a major reduction. But, there are no studies that show the effect of a teacher with a gun in the classroom, so it really is all speculative.
Yes and No, It first starts with your states conceal carry laws. If they allow trained personnel to carry, THEN it would become a local district decision. TX does allow this according to some interpretations of the law, but to date no district has acted upon it. I think the primary reason is because the law is vague and up to interpretation and schools are not in a position to make this fight in todays political climate.
"But, there are no studies that show the effect of a teacher with a gun in the classroom, so it really is all speculative."
Agreed, but lack of research does not confirm or deny validity. It simply says nothing.
This
quote:70 Million More Guns.38% Less Violent Crime
And my quote came from here....
http://www.nraila.org/legislation/read.aspx?id=2445
The FBI statistics are taken from this page, and matched up with the dates when concealed carry legislation was passed in different states.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm
Texas
quote:Since carrying a concealed weapon in the Lone Star State was legalized, overall violent crimes have declined from 644.2 per 100,000 to 561.
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=9367
quote:Analyzing crime data from all 3,054 counties in the U.S. throughout the period 1977-92, Lott and Mustard found that, when shall-issue licensing laws went into effect in a county, murders fell on average by 7.65%, rapes by 5.2%, robberies by 2.2%, and aggravated assaults by 7.0%. Had all the counties in the nation had such laws, the researchers suggest that there would have been 1,414 fewer murders, 4,177 fewer rapes, 11,898 fewer robberies, and 60,363 fewer aggravated assaults.
http://www.marylandshallissue.org/
quote:Overall, non-RTC (right to carry) states average 27.8% higher violent crime rates, most notably 43.8% higher murder and 85% higher robbery rates, than RTC states.
Right-to-carry communities are generally the safest places to live
http://newsbusters.org/node/9140
quote:Statistics from the FBI's Uniformed Crime Report of 2007 show that states with right-to-carry laws have a 30% lower homicide rate, 46% lower robbery, and 12% lower aggravated assault rate and a 22% lower overall violent crime rate than do states without such laws.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2172211/posts
"Understanding why crime fell in the 1990's: four factors that explain the decline and six that do not" Steven D. Levitt
This article can be found through the Academic Journal JSTOR
http://www.jstor.org
Oh and having a gun is just that its authority and if you have a gun to lets say deter school shootings than you are using that authority against all childern in that classroom.
My thoughts: aren't their more incidents of school violence than incidents of violence on airplanes? If that is the case, why do we have air marshalls with firearms, but don't allow the teachers to receive training and defend not only their own lives the lives of your kids? Without knowing much about Columbine, I'm sure that that could have ended a lot less tragically if somebody on campus had a way to protect themselves.
My aunt is very anti gun because she had a friend in a law firm that was killed by a disgruntled client. 7 people were killed in all. If one of those lawyers had exercised their right to carry (no license required within the confines of their work) that situation would have ended a lot faster with a lot fewer casualties.
A little back ground before the question. I am a principal in a small TX school. Community with very strong rural, southern traditions, We give pops, still recognize CHRISTmas and Easter with programs/parties/CHRISTmas trees, expect our kiddos to say sir and Ma'am so please save the government brainwashing depository rhetoric for another thread please, I'll gladly discuss that topic but just not here please.
QUESTION: Today a couple administrators were debating conceal carry by teachers. Evidently a school in Wichita Falls, TX considered allowing this. What are ya'll's thoughts? Good idea/Bad idea?, Safety concerns?, How does this fit into our society today?
For most teachers I would say no. Reason being is I don't think most teachers could shoot and kill one of their students, even when confronted with a violent armed student. Especially in a small town where they know that student and his family and have all of their lives, they won't see that student as a threat they will see them as my friend Nick's son Tommy. Then they are dead and the student has another gun. Some teachers with a military or law enforcement background MIGHT be able to, but they should go through extensive training where their situation is addressed, and it should be completely voluntary. Under those circumstances I think it would be a good idea.
Here is another issue to add to the mix, what about staff on staff issues that might warrant carrying a weapon? Could this become a nightmare scenario or be warranted to protect onself in the work place?
Great stuff fellas. Thanks for the links. Regardless of the stance or the opinions, this has been very informative. The point made about a teacher not being able to use the weapon on one of their students in a crisis situation has some validity, especially at the elementary level, at the JH and HS level I wonder if it wouldn't be different to some degree. Also, the point made about parents threatening teachers and other students has even more validity. This can be a real threat at times, it's not common but does occur. I have witnessed three events in 12 years where law enforcement had to arrest parents for assaulting staff.
Here is another issue to add to the mix, what about staff on staff issues that might warrant carrying a weapon? Could this become a nightmare scenario or be warranted to protect onself in the work place?
I guess there could be a staff on staff issue. I would think both staff members would be suspended without pay or fired before it ever got that far. But I think the old addage an armed society is a polite society holds a lot of water.
I could be wrong but I think most parents who assault staff are just upset about either how their kids are treated or what they are taught, and I believe the parents are and rightfully should be the final authority on what and how their children are taught. Schools should do more to include parents and respect parental wishes as to what and when children can be taught different things especially when it comes to sex, homosexuality, religion, evolution, and things of that nature. I would be to the point of violence if a school taught my son about sex, that it was ok to be gay, and we are all decended from apes. I would sue the school the principal the teacher(s) the school district and the state and pull my kid out of public school so fast it would make their heads spin. Bottom line is I think most violence concerning parents could be avoided if the school respected the authority of the parents.
As far as teachers being armed it should be up to the individual teachers, and they should be educated on how and when to use firearms and be given the ability to opt out of the program at any time for any reason. They should also be reminded that they may be put in a situation where they may have to shoot and kill someone, even a student. I don't think many teachers would go for that. But I think a better idea is armed security guards at the school, and each school should have several of them.
However, my concern would not be staff-on-staff, not staff-on-student, but outsider-on-students. When I entrusted my kids to you, I expected you to keep them safe from fires (you have fire drills, right?) really bad weather, (Sorry kids, but with the lightning, y'all are staying indoors today) and strangers (all visitors must report to the office).
A staff member that has been trained in the safe and effective use of fire extinguisher, administering emergency first aid/ CPR, etc, is part of keeping my kids safe. Same thing should apply to a staff member that has been trained in the safe and effective use of a firearm. If some nut job decides that his cat has been telling him to go down to the schoolyard and shoot the evil zombies (all zombies have blue eyes) during the 10 minutes or so that it takes for the police, sheriff, or Rangers to get there, I'd like to see my teacher better equipped than having a ruler or stapler.
Part of your job goes beyond educating our children. It includes- when you are "in loco parentis" taking CARE of our children.
Click on this Link
The Bias Against Guns: Why Almost Everything You've Heard About Gun Control Is Wrong, John R. Lott, Jr.
Click on this Link
Straight Shooting: Firearms, Economics and Public Policy, John R. Lott, Jr.
Click on this Link
You can have all three for less than $50 delivered, or get them from your public library.
John Lott is a statistician, and he backs up every one of his conclusions with verifiable scientific data.
Edited ONLY to shorten links
Great stuff fellas. Thanks for the links. Regardless of the stance or the opinions, this has been very informative. The point made about a teacher not being able to use the weapon on one of their students in a crisis situation has some validity, especially at the elementary level, at the JH and HS level I wonder if it wouldn't be different to some degree. Also, the point made about parents threatening teachers and other students has even more validity. This can be a real threat at times, it's not common but does occur. I have witnessed three events in 12 years where law enforcement had to arrest parents for assaulting staff.
Here is another issue to add to the mix, what about staff on staff issues that might warrant carrying a weapon? Could this become a nightmare scenario or be warranted to protect onself in the work place?
I support concealed carry in schools, and Clearly there is no way to work around this issue in the lower school levels, but I feel that if only teachers we granted the privilege of concealed carry, it would be putting a rather large target on their backs.
While it would still act as a great deterrent, if one were to get worked up to a point of actually carrying out a violent attack on a school and its occupants, the attacker would only have to point out the teacher in any room and remove them in the very start. while this is most prevalent in the k-12 schools, it would still be an issue in upper education, and a point that I would strongly contest as a college student.
If a teacher/professor is forwarded their right to concealed carry on school property, as a paying customer of the school, I would fully expect that privilege be forwarded to me as well, and this would add 1 more aspect for a violent attacker to mentally overcome before acting on intentions.
If a teacher/professor is forwarded their right to concealed carry on school property, as a paying customer of the school, I would fully expect that privilege be forwarded to me as well, and this would add 1 more aspect for a violent attacker to mentally overcome before acting on intentions.
WTH?
[:0]
WTH?
[:0]
Whats the issue, schools property is restricted for concealed carry damn near everywhere I know of.
All I was trying to say is, that if a teacher is packing, so am I...
I am curious about your statement maintaining one's faith in God before country and family lessens a man's ability to be a family man or patriot. Please share your beliefs to back what I believe are unchristian beliefs and offencive to most members of the GB Forums. I know I for one am totally offended and not so PC as to let it passwithout comment. God bless America.
God, family, then country.
Neither my family nor my country can provide the promise of everlasting life.
God is the provider of our rights as recognized in our Costitution by our Founding Fathers.
I do not understand the mentality that argues against this.
The vast majority of these cowardly acts have taken place at institutions that ban not only concealed carry, but guns altogether.
To my knowledge, none of the cowardly shooters have been CCW permit holders.
I am a firm believer that these locations are chosen largely becasue they are places of 'safety', where people feel safe since there are laws prohibiting guns. Apparently this is a false feeling of safety.
I have issues with the idea of providing uniformed security officers for several reasons.
1. Increased financial burden on school districts, i.e., taxpayers. Many districts, including ours, are already having to cut back or eliminate ciriculum and/or activities. Fees for sports, art, shop, band are increasing dramatically each year.
2. Wearing a uniform paints a target on a person should some cowardly wack-job decide to lose it. Better to keep them guessing and unsure.
I also think that persons/parents that have permit should be able to carry on school premisses. It should remain concealed and if that is violated, then you lose your right to carry at the school.
In schools; there is too many other variables that need to be addressed before something like this would be viable, like in grade schools, all schools or just high schools. How will they be secured, on person, in the desk, in a lock box, etc. Are the teachers going to be willing to be in that lower percentage or will they be in the group that doesn't shoot in either case. Does the weapon then become a tool for the person doing harm or........just sit in a corner doing nothing.
The root of the problem goes all the way back to the breakdown of the family, and if you can argue with that I would guess you were from a broken home too. No one is perfect but its a problem that began decades ago. Fixing it will probably take centuries, if we survive that is.
Peace
Not that I believe concealed carry do not reduce crime, I do accept this but being a psychologist I also understand why. It has to do with the psychology of learned behavior and advertising. People learn that in a situation if you have 100 people with guns, about 30% of them will be the shoot first, 30% will be the study the situation and then shoot and the last group will be not shoot either way. People who mean to do harm understand this also and do not (in most cases) like the odds of being shot. They would rather take their chances in a less dangerous situation.
In schools; there is too many other variables that need to be addressed before something like this would be viable, like in grade schools, all schools or just high schools. How will they be secured, on person, in the desk, in a lock box, etc. Are the teachers going to be willing to be in that lower percentage or will they be in the group that doesn't shoot in either case. Does the weapon then become a tool for the person doing harm or........just sit in a corner doing nothing.
The root of the problem goes all the way back to the breakdown of the family, and if you can argue with that I would guess you were from a broken home too.How about the demonization of guns by liberal jerks? If you can argue with that I would guess you're a liberal jerk.quote: No one is perfect but its a problem that began decades ago. Fixing it will probably take centuries, if we survive that is.
Peace
"...being a psychologist..."
You should have gotten a degree instead of simply claiming a title.
Psychologist? Do you know what "substitution" is in reference to criminal behavior?
If you did, you wouldn't put out that "30% will..." line of nonsense.
The criminal is not worried about some mythical 30% that you just dreamed up. He is worried about the one person with a gun. One, not thirty percent, one.
Back to your "Statistics for Psychology" textbook. [V]
Thank You for bringing up this topic. I agree with other posts. If someone(educator)recieves the proper training to carry concealed, by all means, "YES". There are plenty of good, law abiding Americans out there that need to send a message & cause thought to criminals and their tactics....It's very possible they might meet resistance. Schools are one of our highest priorities for being properly protected and teachers are excellent candidates for the Concealed Carry permit. The local school boards & governments should stand with them on this important issue. If this would save ONE LIFE, it would have proved positive.