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Brother Arrested by ATF for Selling to a Dealer
ldupree
Member Posts: 9 ✭✭
Hello,
as you all can see this is my first post in this forum. I am by no means a gun expert, but I have grown up around guns as my father, grandfather, brother, and cousins are all avid gun enthusiasts and hunters.
I hope that I am posting in the correct forum, if I am not I do apologize. My question, as you can see from the title, concerns my brother. He lives in California, about 10 miles from the Nevada border. Last month he was arrested by the ATF selling several guns to a dealer in NV. He has now been charged with selling firearms for profit by the ATF.
I am posting here because it sure appears that he is in some hot water and I want to know exactly how much trouble he could be in and how to advise him. He has seen a lawyer but they are requesting close to $10k to handle the initial portion of his case... whatever that means. Does anyone have any experience with these kinds of charges and can give some advice.
Are they often pleaded down?
I know everyone would say this about their family members, but he is truly a good kid. 25yrs old. Eagle Scout, has NEVER even had so much as a speeding ticket. Not involved in any nefarious activities, nothing anit- government... loves his country. He was arrested with 3 guns on him I believe, none were assault weapons... just handguns. He was detained by local police when he arrived at the dealers shop until the ATF arrived. I really believe that his crime is ignorance of the law as he has always attempted to be transparent with his actions.
Any advice is VERY much appreciated. Does the ATF really go hard after cases such as these where there is no nefarious intent and where the person is otherwise on the "straight and narrow"?
My apologies on the long post, but I am just a very worried older brother who doesn't want to see his kid brother go to prison.
Thank you in advance,
Luke
as you all can see this is my first post in this forum. I am by no means a gun expert, but I have grown up around guns as my father, grandfather, brother, and cousins are all avid gun enthusiasts and hunters.
I hope that I am posting in the correct forum, if I am not I do apologize. My question, as you can see from the title, concerns my brother. He lives in California, about 10 miles from the Nevada border. Last month he was arrested by the ATF selling several guns to a dealer in NV. He has now been charged with selling firearms for profit by the ATF.
I am posting here because it sure appears that he is in some hot water and I want to know exactly how much trouble he could be in and how to advise him. He has seen a lawyer but they are requesting close to $10k to handle the initial portion of his case... whatever that means. Does anyone have any experience with these kinds of charges and can give some advice.
Are they often pleaded down?
I know everyone would say this about their family members, but he is truly a good kid. 25yrs old. Eagle Scout, has NEVER even had so much as a speeding ticket. Not involved in any nefarious activities, nothing anit- government... loves his country. He was arrested with 3 guns on him I believe, none were assault weapons... just handguns. He was detained by local police when he arrived at the dealers shop until the ATF arrived. I really believe that his crime is ignorance of the law as he has always attempted to be transparent with his actions.
Any advice is VERY much appreciated. Does the ATF really go hard after cases such as these where there is no nefarious intent and where the person is otherwise on the "straight and narrow"?
My apologies on the long post, but I am just a very worried older brother who doesn't want to see his kid brother go to prison.
Thank you in advance,
Luke
Comments
SOunds like JBT to me.
Someone will be along who has some advice. Sounds like he needs to contact Second Amendment Foundation, or.... which one is it fighting all the legal battles the NRA won't touch (unless it is to cause trouble)?? Somebody help out here...
best of luck. Keep us posted if you would?
www.nra.com
ILA dept
http://tinyurl.com/yzvzm92
This link is to a expert on the east coast who has written several book and is a expert on gun laws
Edited ONLY to shorten link.
Did he buy the weapons for resale in the last week or so ?
Personal weapons he owned for 5 years ?
How is it that the police were called anyway ?
There has been a grey area in BATF enforcement for many years...the ' Just HOW many weapons can I sell a year, ANYWAY ' question....that the BATF doesn't answer...except with arrests.
You might contact Jeff Synder. He may know about a lawyer in your area that actually understands the Constitution.
jsnyder62@gmail.com
Highball, thanks I will email Mr. Snyder. Wpage and Jpwolf, I really appreciate the links and heads up on the Second Amendment Foundation. I will look into them today.
He lives roughly about 400 miles from me so we only talk by phone but he has been pretty tight lipped. I guess one of the lawyers he spoke to said that the ATF probably had his phone tapped at this point. Sounds super paranoid to me, but what do I know, I'm not a lawyer.
Highball, to answer your questions,
At least one of the guns he had on him were purchased within the past year... I know that for sure. Possibly another as well. The other one he has had for over a year for sure.
Yes they were his personal weapons. Like many people his job closed down last year and he started selling things he owns, TV's, his extra work truck, his guns, to make ends meet. So I do not know how much he has sold over the past 10 or 12 months, but I know he was mentioning in passing before that he was selling to a dealer in NV... the one in whose shop he was arrested.
As far as what tipped the ATF off? Who knows... that is what we are all asking. Did he set off a trigger with internet postings or searches for gun sales? Ebay listings? Who knows. None of this really makes much sense in terms of who he is, the life he has lead to this point, what "he did", and how hard they (the ATF) seem to be pursuing this.
I hate to be doing this but, can I ask if anyone has any personal experience in this regard... Is going the route of a public defender a REALLY BAD decision? It feels like it would be but we really don't know.
Thank you again everyone for your help and advice,
Luke
Pleading down is permanent, so is winning.
If you can get a major "defender" involved (you can try the NRA, but don't hold your breath, many others are MUCH better) it would indicate to me that this is worthy of "helping out"[;)].
If it gets into the media and the court of public opinion is swayed to your cause, it would be a great deal of help.
Keep us posted.
edit: Why couldn't the ACLU be brought in. It's supposed to be their job. Anybody know?
http://www.saf.org/pub/rkba/general/ACLU.htm
http://tinyurl.com/yjo2h5p
Edited ONLY to shorten link.
I hate to be doing this but, can I ask if anyone has any personal experience in this regard... Is going the route of a public defender a REALLY BAD decision? It feels like it would be but we really don't know.
Thank you again everyone for your help and advice,
Luke
I don't have personal experience in criminal court, but some in civil. The public defenders have a conflict of interest because they work for income for the county they are in.
Firstly are the charges federal or state?
I don't expect and answer because I don't have specific answers in either case. I ask to point out that the applicable regulations must be looked up in order to know exactly what violation of law is asserted. The feds might use state laws to avoid costs of prosecution and thereby dump it on the county DA.
These things are vital to know. IF a public defender (PD) is intitally engaged it can do no harm. When the exact regulation is known then ATF procedure within investigation can be determined. There may be some good defenses there. IF there are, run them past the PD to determine if the PD will actually defend. I've seen where they refuse and will only cut deals.
Aside from that I'm betting there is quite a bit of general legal knowledge right here in this forum that can be used to understand exactly what he is charged with and IF such chrages can be properly applied.
If nothing else the PD can be engaged then released gaining a reason for continuance and more legal defense strategy.
Has he plead to the charges in court yet? If not I have a great plea he can use that totally avoides entering into a contract with the court.
If he is going to fight it, and I would, you get what you pay for. Pleading down only serves to encourage them to go do it again. SOmebody needs a bust in the chops, and eventually, somebody has to give it to them.
Pleading down is permanent, so is winning.
If you can get a major "defender" involved (you can try the NRA, but don't hold your breath, many others are MUCH better) it would indicate to me that this is worthy of "helping out"[;)].
If it gets into the media and the court of public opinion is swayed to your cause, it would be a great deal of help.
Keep us posted.
edit: Why couldn't the ACLU be brought in. It's supposed to be their job. Anybody know?
Thanks JPWolf, I really appreciate the info and links. I will certainly look into the ACLU angle... I was actually just thinking about that this morning. I will keep you guys posted for sure. I am going to try and talk to him tonight and post again either late tonight or tomorrow.
Once again, thank you very much. Your help is appreciated.
Luke
Sorry, but there seems to be a key component missing. Many MANY people buy and sell guns all the time. They pick something up that they want to try out, and find that it does not fit them, or their needs. They turn around and sell it.
(sometimes for a profit, or often for a loss [:(])
I have done this a time or two.
Maybe I am wrong, but IMO, either he is not relating the "whole" story to you, or you are not, to us.
This might make for some reading material.
It started here.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=277795
It ended here.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=288906
quote:Originally posted by ldupree
I hate to be doing this but, can I ask if anyone has any personal experience in this regard... Is going the route of a public defender a REALLY BAD decision? It feels like it would be but we really don't know.
Thank you again everyone for your help and advice,
Luke
I don't have personal experience in criminal court, but some in civil. The public defenders have a conflict of interest because they work for income for the county they are in.
Firstly are the charges federal or state?
I don't expect and answer because I don't have specific answers in either case. I ask to point out that the applicable regulations must be looked up in order to know exactly what violation of law is asserted. The feds might use state laws to avoid costs of prosecution and thereby dump it on the county DA.
These things are vital to know. IF a public defender (PD) is intitally engaged it can do no harm. When the exact regulation is known then ATF procedure within investigation can be determined. There may be some good defenses there. IF there are, run them past the PD to determine if the PD will actually defend. I've seen where they refuse and will only cut deals.
Aside from that I'm betting there is quite a bit of general legal knowledge right here in this forum that can be used to understand exactly what he is charged with and IF such chrages can be properly applied.
If nothing else the PD can be engaged then released gaining a reason for continuance and more legal defense strategy.
Has he plead to the charges in court yet? If not I have a great plea he can use that totally avoides entering into a contract with the court.
Thank you for the info Freedomfighter. It is very much appreciated. To answer some of your questions. He was just charged last week. I don't know all the charges (I.E. how man, etc). But from briefly speaking with him and speaking with my mom the one that everyone is worried about is "selling firearms for profit". I think that is an ATF charge. He will arraigned in several weeks.
Also, yes please, I would be very interested in hearing the plea. If you want you can send it to me at lukedupree3@gmail.com
Thank you all again. I have to get back to work but will check back and post again soon.
Best regards,
Luke
Luke,
Sorry, but there seems to be a key component missing. Many MANY people buy and sell guns all the time. They pick something up that they want to try out, and find that it does not fit them, or their needs. They turn around and sell it.
(sometimes for a profit, or often for a loss [:(])
I have done this a time or two.
Maybe I am wrong, but IMO, either he is not relating the "whole" story to you, or you are not, to us.
This might make for some reading material.
It started here.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=277795
It ended here.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=288906
Pickenup, I have been asking the same exact questions since this whole thing began. It absolutely does not make sense. I know that buys and sells a lot of guns. I don't know the exact figures but to me 10 guns a year would be a lot of guns. Guns are a passion of his. He does a lot of dealings online. His proximity to Nevada means that he is crossing state lines all the time for the purposes of buying and selling guns. I obviously know my brother and know who he is an how he thinks. He is not an extremist. However, in all honesty I could see how, in this age of extreme paranoia someone on the outside (who is trying to find "red flags") could see all of these gun dealings as a potential red flag. I guess anyhow. My sincere hope is that they are simply trying to scare him.
I do know that there were at least 2 charges... but that the one that they were overwhelmingly concerned about (I believe because the lawyer he consulted with said it could carry 2yrs in jail) was the selling firearms for profit charge. The name of that charge does not even make sense to me. Are you supposed to sell for a loss?!? I guess they mean that he is selling without a license... but that is just a guess.
I will find out more and post... hopefully tonight.
I appreciate your help.
Luke
report if anyone purchase more than 3 handguns in a 1 month period.
May have also been if someone SOLD more than 2 handguns in a 1 month
period. Sure sounds like some over reaction on the ATF. You've
already received the best advice. Tell him to say NOTHING to the
Feds.
The BATF simply will not advance that figure.
It appears he is hailed by the online activity, and selling to the same gun shop. SOMEBODY got their knickers in a twist..and ratted him out.
I would stay away from a public defender. Thery simply are not competent in this matter.
There will have to be money coughed up to have a prayer of a chance to prevail.
I can buy anything ELSE that I like, and as much of it, and sell it for any profit I choose. Best not do it with handguns/rifles/shotguns. So say the FUDS anyway.
ONLY advice I could possibly offer:
Laywer up, and with the BEST. Do NOT plead guilty or to lesser charges. Any plea/guilty verdict will seal his gun rights away from him.
It would be most unfortunate also, if the jerk who turned him in, would fall off a cliff. People have accidents all the time.
Thank you once again for all of your advice. I meant to post an update last night but it just got to be too late.
Anyhow, I spoke with my mom and she gave me some more details. This is what I know now. He did go ahead and pay an NV lawyer who handles this kind of stuff $3k to represent read through his charges and advise him. The charges mailed from the ATF last week. The lawyers have looked them over and feel that the "selling firearms for profit" is the most serious.
Some details that I did not know previously:
1. The ATF is saying that he has sold between 35-40 guns over the the past several years (again this is my moms recollection of the what the charges say... I'm sure the actual charges are more specific when it comes to quantity and timeframe). He thinks that this number is a bit high but thinks that over the period in question he has probably sold 30 at the most. He is now going back and locating all of his receipts.
2. The lawyers initial opinion of the ATF's charges is that they are concerned as to his state of mind. For example, why does anyone, let alone a young man in his early to mid 20's need an arsenal (the lawyers words) of weapons? It is a big red flag for them. My brother, basically admitted that he loves guns and was pretty much addicted to acquiring and collecting them as long as he had the money to do so. This is something that we all knew and did not bother us because he is not unstable, or nuts, or reckless. To me, if you are sane, its just like any other hobby. For some it's coins, others it's cars, others it's guns. Just because you collect them doesn't mean that you are arming yourself for war!
So anyhow, hearing the lawyers opinion, and knowing that the lawyer will need another $6500 to represent him in court, he was leaning toward just going and speaking to the ATF and letting them know exactly the person he is. The volunteer work he does for his church, how he takes care of our grandpa, ect. Basically let them see that his is not arming for battle... or whatever it is that they are scared of.
He was quickly talked out of this and my mom has given him the money to retain the lawyers services, at least for the time being. I honestly think that if he could be assured that he would not be railroaded or tricked to say something that, when taken out of context, would hurt his case, he would be very open to talking to the ATF and letting them see just who he is. A good, stable, sane person.
I've been thinking a lot about this and while my brother is VERY freaked out (he's trying to hide it but it's starting to affect him physically with hyperventilation ect.)... anyways, while he is scared, I'm starting to get angry. I'm definitely worried but the anger is starting to grow. Is this really what the ATF's charter is? Shouldn't they be out looking for and prosecuting REAL criminals. By criminal I don't mean someone who has gotten tripped up on a paperwork error or fits some vague and very broad profile.... I mean someone who actually is out there with the intent to hurt other people or our government or our way of life. How can you find real criminals if you are trying to harass and jail your own GOOD citizens without even offering them an opportunity to explain themselves, in order to find out if they are worth arresting, putting on trial, and generally ruining their lives along with their families. Sorry about the rant... some may not agree but I just had to get it off my chest.
Anyhow, I need to get back to work. I and my family really appreciate all of you who have read and those who have responded as well. I will do my best to keep updating as things go on. And as always, if anyone has any further advice or links, etc, we are very open to them.
Best regards,
Luke
Not that I believe there should be anything actionable even if he did, but are you sure your brother was not buying and selling as a business venture? I ask only because if the intent of a purchase was to re-sell the firearm, he did break the law. The ATF uses volume to substitute for intent, and obviously selling 30+ firearms over several years would raise a flag.
It would be good to know how many years 'several' is. At 25 years old, we can assume it is less than 7 years, but if it has been only 2 years, it is fairly safe to assume this was a business venture and not simply rotating a collection by a collector. It would be also good to know if he bought and sold similar or identical firearms over that period. If, for example, 10 out of that thirty were identical S & W 686s, he is in for a tough year. You may want to keep this information between the two of you if he comes back with an answer that is questionable.
Obviously these factors will dictate how his defense is to be presented. The goons at the ATF are not stupid. If little brother was playing with fire, they will burn him. If not, there is still a good chance they will try, but a strong presentation of his case should prevail.
Good luck.
Brad Steele
Luke:
Not that I believe there should be anything actionable even if he did, but are you sure your brother was not buying and selling as a business venture? I ask only because if the intent of a purchase was to re-sell the firearm, he did break the law. The ATF uses volume to substitute for intent, and obviously selling 30+ firearms over several years would raise a flag.
It would be good to know how many years 'several' is. At 25 years old, we can assume it is less than 7 years, but if it has been only 2 years, it is fairly safe to assume this was a business venture and not simply rotating a collection by a collector. It would be also good to know if he bought and sold similar or identical firearms over that period. If, for example, 10 out of that thirty were identical S & W 686s, he is in for a tough year. You may want to keep this information between the two of you if he comes back with an answer that is questionable.
Obviously these factors will dictate how his defense is to be presented. The goons at the ATF are not stupid. If little brother was playing with fire, they will burn him. If not, there is still a good chance they will try, but a strong presentation of his case should prevail.
Good luck.
Don thank you very much for your input. I don't know all of the details, however, I do know that for a few years he was doing well in work and had plenty of money and indulged his hobby.. and his selling off of guns came over the past couple of years as his work slowed down and ultimately as his income became nill, due to the bad economy.
Believe me, him selling his guns was not something that he looked forward to. We live far apart so we don't see each other but for special occasions, but I can recall him mentioning in passing several times over the past several years that he had to get rid of this gun or that gun in order fix his car or pay property taxes, etc. In fact if one were to look at a catalogue of his possessions over the same time period they would see that he has sold much of what he owned that had any real value... simply to make ends meet. Work truck, big screen tv, extra computer, etc. I only hope that these guys have a heart and will look at the big picture as opposed to being stuck on meeting a quota or carving out another notch in their careers.
Thank you again for the feedback,
Luke
Don thank you very much for your input. I don't know all of the details, however, I do know that for a few years he was doing well in work and had plenty of money and indulged his hobby.. and his selling off of guns came over the past couple of years as his work slowed down and ultimately as his income became nill, due to the bad economy.
Believe me, him selling his guns was not something that he looked forward to. We live far apart so we don't see each other but for special occasions, but I can recall him mentioning in passing several times over the past several years that he had to get rid of this gun or that gun in order fix his car or pay property taxes, etc. In fact if one were to look at a catalogue of his possessions over the same time period they would see that he has sold much of what he owned that had any real value... simply to make ends meet. Work truck, big screen tv, extra computer, etc. I only hope that these guys have a heart and will look at the big picture as opposed to being stuck on meeting a quota or carving out another notch in their careers.
Thank you again for the feedback,
Luke
That makes a lot of sense, Luke, and one would think he has nothing to worry about legally. Obviously his lawyer should know best how to approach this, so nothing to worry about legally does not mean it is going to be cheap.
I have only dealt with ATF agents once (regarding an employee). They started out fairly aggressively, but as the facts became known, they were reasonable and dropped the case. I hope your brother finds a similar crew.
All the best,
Don
Brad Steele
Tough break for your brother. He may win..but it will be at the cost of huge expenses, worry, heartbreak and harrassment.
The government goons will sleep well at night...paid WELL for their screwing over a citizen.
IF he kept receipts..and sold the weapons for about what he paid for them...it MIGHT indicate he was selling under duress of being jobless. Might help...but the damn government is interested in CONVICTIONS...and screw the details.
I hope you can get some helpful advice here, screw the JBT's that are everybody associated with the ATF.[xx(]
As Beeramid said, watch what you put on here.
We want to know, but not TOO much. [;)]
As for your following statement.
NO, they should not be out looking for ANYTHING.
They should be DISBANDED!!!
quote:Originally posted by ldupree
Shouldn't they be out looking for and prosecuting REAL criminals.
You said that he was quickly talked out of going and talking to them. This is SOUND ADVICE. If his lawyer is worth anything, I would hope that his advice was NOT to talk with them. At least not without his lawyer being present.
Please, keep us posted.
I have been going back and forth over the past couple of days regarding how much more to post about his case. You all bring up a very good point regarding not posting too much info, and I kind of worry now that I may have. My brother was asking if I could post some more, VERY specific questions regarding his charges / counts, etc, and I frankly don't feel comfortable doing so... for the reasons you all have already outlined.
So, I'll do my best to post updates and will check into the forum daily. We are always open to any info or advice. Thank you all again for your support and advice. I just ask that you keep the good thoughts coming our way.
Best regards,
Luke
Hi everyone, thank you all so much for your responses, advice, and support. My family and I appreciate it. We are in the process of contacting the Second Amendment Foundation along with some of the other resources and links provided for advice and information. We will also seek their feedback on the lawyer my brother is starting to work with.
I have been going back and forth over the past couple of days regarding how much more to post about his case. You all bring up a very good point regarding not posting too much info, and I kind of worry now that I may have. My brother was asking if I could post some more, VERY specific questions regarding his charges / counts, etc, and I frankly don't feel comfortable doing so... for the reasons you all have already outlined.
So, I'll do my best to post updates and will check into the forum daily. We are always open to any info or advice. Thank you all again for your support and advice. I just ask that you keep the good thoughts coming our way.
Best regards,
Luke
The Second Amendment Foundation is a great organization. They were quick to aid my wife and I in our case against the ISP...and even hooked us up with our attorney.
I don't know but the same type of law may pertain to firearms.Look at the federal statutes dealing with firearms.
Guys thank you so much for the responses. I can't tell you how much it means to us. My family is freaking out and don't really know what to do next... so thank you for the direction provided.
Highball, thanks I will email Mr. Snyder. Wpage and Jpwolf, I really appreciate the links and heads up on the Second Amendment Foundation. I will look into them today.
He lives roughly about 400 miles from me so we only talk by phone but he has been pretty tight lipped. I guess one of the lawyers he spoke to said that the ATF probably had his phone tapped at this point. Sounds super paranoid to me, but what do I know, I'm not a lawyer.
Highball, to answer your questions,
At least one of the guns he had on him were purchased within the past year... I know that for sure. Possibly another as well. The other one he has had for over a year for sure.
Yes they were his personal weapons. Like many people his job closed down last year and he started selling things he owns, TV's, his extra work truck, his guns, to make ends meet. So I do not know how much he has sold over the past 10 or 12 months, but I know he was mentioning in passing before that he was selling to a dealer in NV... the one in whose shop he was arrested.
As far as what tipped the ATF off? Who knows... that is what we are all asking. Did he set off a trigger with internet postings or searches for gun sales? Ebay listings? Who knows. None of this really makes much sense in terms of who he is, the life he has lead to this point, what "he did", and how hard they (the ATF) seem to be pursuing this.
I hate to be doing this but, can I ask if anyone has any personal experience in this regard... Is going the route of a public defender a REALLY BAD decision? It feels like it would be but we really don't know.
Thank you again everyone for your help and advice,
Luke
Hire a good attorney. The public pretenders work for the state & you get their best of the worst.