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ATF targeting imported shotguns

pickenuppickenup Member Posts: 22,844 ✭✭✭✭
quote:The purpose of this study is to establish criteria that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms
and Explosives (ATF) will use to determine the importability of certain shotguns under the
provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA).
The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) generally prohibits the importation of firearms into the
United States. 1 However, pursuant to 18 U.S.C. ? 925(d), the GCA creates four narrow
categories of firearms that the Attorney General must authorize for importation. Under one such
category, subsection 925(d)(3), the Attorney General shall approve applications for importation
when the firearms are generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to
sporting purposes (the "sporting purposes test").

They got away with it once, they will use this forever. [:(!]

quote:a finding that
"the ability to accept a detachable large capacity magazine

Rumor is that they are targeting the Saiga shotgun. With the pictures they have of one with the pistol grip (which is NOT the way they are imported) and the drums......well....

The rest of the story......

Just wondering, where did the ATF derive the power to MAKE law?


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    torosapotorosapo Member Posts: 4,946
    edited November -1
    I heard from a gunshow buddy that they are going after the Saiga but he couldn't find anything definitive on it.
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    jev1969jev1969 Member Posts: 2,691
    edited November -1
    Heard from my local gunsmith that they are going after the Saiga's. He received some sort of survey from the BATF. I didn't get all of the details but he basically said now is the time to buy if you want or will ever want one.
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    quickmajikquickmajik Member Posts: 16,324
    edited November -1
    Looks like the Good ole ATF is out to destroy yet another multimillion dollar cottage industry in the name of disarming americans.

    wheter you own a siaga or not, or even like them, you should stand up for the folks who make a living by useing their brains and taking on huge risks to innovate the gun industry.. You can do so by composeing a letter and sending it to the AFT before the first of May on the pertaining study..

    you can read further here on the siaga forums, alot of it is speculation, but the proper contact information is there. Looks like the ATF is definatly targeting the siaga cottage industry, from there they could extend the bans to include all siagas, and that would put houndreds maybe thousands more highly skilled americans out of work, for which they have paid alot to be highly trained.

    after the reports release


    I'm sure the good American folks whose kids might not go to a good college and get well feed will appreciate your few minutes to support their continued existence as middle class, and in a stable home.[;)]

    In fact get ahold of your congressmen on this matter, if you care.

    The ATF shotgun study: "Nothing less than an assault on an aspect of our culture, which includes military traditions and interests."
    "This is a deliberate effort at social engineering by the Government."

    Received this while I was in Tennessee:

    My initial take on the ATF shotgun study

    First, the ATF report was written by attorneys, as the footnotes indicate---and does the focus on legalistics, with only a brief nod to cultural issues. Except what screams out is: "We, the Government, are becoming increasingly alarmed and excited at the quality and firepower of guns that have developed within the past decade or so, which are in civilian hands, because only the Police should have those kinds of weapons." That's the theme, and the demonization proceeds from there, as I'll describe in part below.

    The ATF shotgun study---apart from the importability and "sporting use" criteria it already appears to have established, and is only on the verge of being implemented after a window dressing "comment" period that expires May 1, 2011---appears to seek to disestablish, discourage or eliminate certain connections between military technology and its application to civilian use, as well as to firearms. Consider the example of the laser sight. "No sporting purpose?" Well, a laser sight makes aiming at critters (rabbits, ground hogs, raccoons, snakes, you name it) a lot easier, efficient, and practical than using iron sights or perhaps even a scope in some instances. Consider also the notion that a firearm which is "a semiautomatic version of a machinegun" (page 9 of the ATF study) is inherently bad. What does that mean? In my judgment, it means demonizing such guns, even though their ballistic features do not differ from other guns---but it sure does imply that folks who are interested in such guns are bad citizens. It sure does look like such demonization will economically harm the manufacturers who produce such guns, because of the demand for them --- people who cannot, for economic reasons, and the fact there are only about 190,000 available for transfer to civilians -- own machine guns, who want to experience the heft and feel and image of owning one, are now transformed into implied threats. Sounds like a great way to revive the economy.

    Similarly, under the criteria of "the ability to accept a detachable magazine," consider what may be the most common and popular semiautomatic rifle in the United States --- the Ruger 10/22. I guess that rifle would be unimportable (in D.C., it is actually classified as a "machine gun" owing to the passage of legally incorrect legislation in 1930. It is now 2011 and that law is still on the books, even though the Ruger 10/22 is NOT a machine gun). This is what happens when flawed laws get passed.

    Second, the ATF report gives short shrift given to social and cultural conditions in the firearm sports world. Note that the United States Practical Shooting Association (USPSA), the one group that may interfere with ATF's immediate objectives in banning the importation of certain shotguns is disregarded --- even though the activities (3-gun competitions) necessarily use shotguns! Specifically: "Because a determination on the sporting purpose of practical shooting events should be made only after an in-depth study of those events, the working group determined that it was not appropriate to use this shotgun study to make a definitive conclusion as to whether practical shooting events are 'sporting' for purposes of section 925(d)(3)." (see page 13 of the ATF study). Because USPSA concerns are inconvenient, ATF refuses to consider them "in this study," which is going to be the basis for banning the importation of a bunch of shotguns.

    Third, it is difficult to conclude that whatever restrictions ATF imposes on the importation of shotguns in the United States, will NOT soon have bad effects upon manufacturers of certain shotguns in the United States, as well as folks who gussy up their shotguns on an aftermarket basis. Again, consider the size of the industry and the potential economic impacts --- again, great way to revive the economy (that was sarcasm). It would make too long a message to go through each of the "bad" features that ATF is demonizing, and I'm sure each of you have picked up on others in addition to the ones that I described briefly above.

    Fourth, I think this is a deliberate effort at social engineering by the Government, with respect to limiting or banning firearms civilians are allowed to own, that is only just starting. It is nothing less than an assault on an aspect of our culture, which includes military traditions and interests. There's nobody with even a pea for a brain who believes that the sale of surplus and reproduction military gear in Shotgun News or the innumerable gun shows reflects anything but some combination of (1) wanting reliable tools, ammunition, clothes, boots, firearms, knives, tents, parachute cord, etc. for legitimate use in camping and hunting activities, (2) enjoying the historical nostalgia and, perhaps, military service, that is occasioned by owing such items, and (3) having those interests form the basis for other associations with collectors, hunters, campers --- sheesh.

    Finally, I see a huge rural/urban issue here, which might be usefully informed by education. Millions of kids who have grown up in urban areas have had virtually no exposure to the outdoors and sport and hunting and camping worlds, and hence can't imagine that context for the use of firearms. To a fellow sitting on his owned 5 or 10 or 50 or 80 or 160 or more acres of land, who wants to go out into the woods he owns and shoot or hunt or target practice, the people who clamor that he should be prohibited from owning a laser sight, or semiautomatic copy of a machinegun, and by implication is a terrorist if he owns a ghillie suit (much less a silencer for his firearms because he doesn't wish to disturb his neighbors), those clamoring people are nothing short of crazy themselves. What on Earth is wrong with owing and using a high-capacity magazine for legal and legitimate purposes on one's own land? This is a bad combination that is guaranteed to produce explosive confrontations, every bit as and probably much more than we have seen so far.

    I think you're going to see the White House publish some trace data in the next week or two, and use that as a starting point for a broad use of Executive Branch power to try and force agencies to more strictly regulate and prohibit certain guns, because the Congress is unwilling to do so. Obama has to do this to appeal to his extreme left-wing liberal constituency, which sees him as a failure in this area, and if he doesn't they won't renominate him in 2012. This is going to get mighty ugly. It is also one of the STUPIDEST things I think Obama could do --- people are really angry that the Government allowed a bunch of thieving bankers to walk away unscathed; to keep what amounts to fraudulently obtained/stolen money; and bailed the thieving bankers out --- while letting THEM economically dissipate, losing houses, savings, 401(k)'s, and their jobs. Obama STILL doesn't get the jobs thing. When he starts messing around trying to make gun control a central issue at a time of serious economic hardship, the implication that the Government is going after private ownership of guns, is going to provoke a lot of hostilities, but that's just my view.

    I apologize for the length of this message --- it could easily have been much longer. I hope it causes you all to think hard about these issues, and that it may contribute to some discussions and ways to constructive address what surely are going to be some preposterous activities by ATF and the White House.

    One strong ray of hope --- the Heller decision. Maybe the decision that a person has a constitutional right to own a handgun in one's home for purposes of self-defense, will point the way towards eliminating the "sporting purpose" requirement, which is what needs to happen to call off the ATF jackals. In the meantime, I trust the "comment period" will also accomplishe an Obama purpose --- to stick the licked ATF finger in the wind to see which way it blows or not, which is undoubtedly better than ATF's traditional practice of "announcing" or "making available" a Ruling without bothering to consult firearms industry and other folks who will unquestionably be affected by the planned demonizing of guns and accessories.

    here is the last letter I wrote to one of the gun orgs I belong to.

    It has come to my attention that the ATF has desided to try to stop importation of the popular siaga 12 20 and 410 shotgun based on the evaluation it can facilitate an american made magazine holding more then 5 rounds, and be reconfigured.

    The industry that has flourished as a result of the siaga, and the impact it has had to draw more people into the three gun shooting sports is a multi-million dollar industry, many many people have invested themselves in the future of these products and sports, only to face the threat to be utterly ruined by a non congressional athority.

    This is unexceptable and the victims of this act of thoughtless infringement should be represented and heard by people other then those who have no accountability and the will to self agrandize themselves to others of thier same caustic abusive ideology.

    I ask that you please help these people if you can, this could be the start of a new round of regulation to rival the original import ban of the 90s, this time without the people being able to lobby a person who can be held accountable for his or her acts by the democratic process. And that is a bad precedent to set.

    Thank you for your time,
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    quickmajikquickmajik Member Posts: 16,324
    edited November -1

    ATF Study on the Importability of Certain Shotguns - A Saiga Ban?
    January 28, 2011

    By David M. Goldman on January 28, 2011 9:21 AM | Permalink
    The ATF Study on the Importability of Certain Shotguns was published today.

    Many of you have been following the supposed ban on imported Shotguns like the Saiga that was announced by the ATF during the Shot Show in Las Vegas last week. Instead ATF announced a study which may some a little extra time to purchase these firearms before a ban goes into place and states that

    A change in ATF's position on practical shooting has potential implications for rifle and handgun classifications as well. Therefore, the working group believes that a more thorough and complete assessment is necessary before ATF can consider practical shooting as a generally recognized sporting purpose.
    The items that ATF believes are not suitable for a sporting purpose are:

    (1) Folding, telescoping, or collapsible stocks;
    (2) bayonet lugs;
    (3) flash suppressors;
    (4) magazines over 5 rounds, or a drum magazine;
    (5) grenade-launcher mounts;
    (6) integrated rail systems (other than on top of the receiver or barrel);
    (7) light enhancing devices;
    (8) excessive weight (greater than 10 pounds for 12 gauge or smaller);
    (9) excessive bulk (greater than 3 inches in width and/or greater than 4 inches in depth); (10) forward pistol grips or other protruding parts designed or used for gripping the shotgun with the shooter's extended hand.

    Our determinations will in no way preclude the importation of true sporting shotguns. While it will certainly prevent the importation of certain shotguns, we believe that those shotguns containing the enumerated features cannot be fairly characterized as "sporting" shotguns under the statute. Therefore, it is the recommendation of the working group that shotguns with any of the characteristics or features listed above not be authorized for importation.

    The report has some interesting charts and pictures. I noticed that in the Shotgun Stock Style Comparison, they show many firearms and name them, but the one they do not name is not a stock Saiga but has been modified as the trigger has been moved forward and a separate pistol grip has been added. It looks like the rumored ban on the Saiga's will happen so if you want one, you time may be limited.

    What is unknown at this time is what or how ATF will treat those items that are already in the US. Since most shot guns have a bore size greater than 1/2 an inch we could see some devices classified as destructive devices. The ATF is asking for comments and I have included their information below. Please review the study and respond.

    Update: Joshua Prince a Pennsylvania Gun Trust Lawyer has also written a summary of the report that can be found here

    All interested persons may submit comments on this study. Comments may be submitted by e-mail to or by fax to (202)648-9601. Faxed comments may not exceed 5 pages. All comments must include name and mailing address. ATF encourages submission of comments no later than May 1, 2011
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    quickmajikquickmajik Member Posts: 16,324
    edited November -1
    FAIRFAX, Va. --( On Thursday, Jan. 27, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives released a Study on the Importability of Certain Shotguns, which proposes that "military shotguns, or shotguns with common military features that are unsuitable for traditional shotgun sports" be prohibited from importation.

    This would apply to all shotguns-not just semi-automatics. As in previous "working group" studies on rifles, the study fails to give proper credit to the widespread use of these guns in newer shooting sports, or to their adaptability to hunting.

    The study underscores the need for Congress to change the firearm importation law. That law requires the Attorney General to approve the importation of any firearm "generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes." This "sporting purposes" test was imposed by the Gun Control Act in 1968, a time when the right to self-defense with a firearm was not as widely respected by the courts as it is today.

    Clearly, the main reason to change the law is that the Second Amendment-as the Supreme Court said in District of Columbia v. Heller-protects our right to keep and bear arms for defense, not for sports.

    In its 2008 Heller decision, the court observed that "the inherent right of self-defense has been central to the Second Amendment right" and ruled that the Second Amendment protects "the individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation," particularly within the home, where "the need for defense of self, family, and property is most acute." The court also dismissed the notion that the amendment doesn't protect modern arms, saying "Just as the First Amendment protects modern forms of communications and the Fourth Amendment applies to modern forms of search, the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms."

    Another reason to change the law is to end the BATFE's 22-year history of misinterpreting it. In 1989, the bureau banned the importation of semi-automatic rifles, claiming they were not used for "organized marksmanship competition." (In fact, the banned guns were of the type most commonly used by competitors in the most popular marksmanship competitions in the United States-the National Matches, and the hundreds of local, state and regional competitions that precede the national events each year.)

    In 1998, BATFE expanded the ban, absurdly claiming that semi-automatic rifles' "suitability for this activity [marksmanship competition] is limited." At the time, a Clinton White House official said "we're taking the law and bending it as far as we can to capture a whole new class of guns."

    Now, BATFE is bending the law one more time. As this issue develops, the NRA will be looking at every legislative and legal option to bring our firearms import laws back in line with the Constitution
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    OdawgpOdawgp Member Posts: 5,380 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    USPSA asked members months ago to send in comments

    were is Wayne??

    oh right he's the guy writing this schit[V]
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    quickmajikquickmajik Member Posts: 16,324
    edited November -1
    Anything new on this?

    I have been trying to keep current on it.
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    pickenuppickenup Member Posts: 22,844 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by quickmajik
    Anything new on this?

    I have been trying to keep current on it.

    Not that I have heard.
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    Erwin0206Erwin0206 Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    For immediate release: July 13, 2011
    ATF Shotgun Import Ban Blasted by Carter Amendment

    (WASHINGTON, DC) - The proposed ATF ban on shotgun imports with any tactical features would be blocked under an amendment by Congressman John Carter (R-TX) which passed the House Appropriations Committee today by a 28-19 margin.

    "People in Texas are perfectly capable of deciding what features they like on their shotguns without interference from Washington," said Carter. "Every firearm made can have multiple purposes, and for ATF to unilaterally decide that a shotgun with a folding stock has a bad purpose while one with a straight stock does not is unacceptable to the spirit of the Second Amendment."

    According to the ATF website, the import ban would prohibit the import of any shotgun with folding, telescoping, or collapsible stocks; magazines over 5 rounds; integrated rail systems; light enhancing devices; weight greater than 10 pounds; bulk greater than 3 inch width or 4 inch depth; forward pistol grips or any other parts that can be grasped with the shooter's extended hand; along with any other features which the ATF determined would not be consistent with a "sporting purpose":

    The Carter amendment passed as part of the ongoing full committee markup of the Commerce, Justice, Science, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act for 2012. The measure would effectively block the ban by prohibiting the use of any funds to implement or enforce the ATF import scheme. The Act must be passed by the full House and Senate and signed by the President to become law.
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