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This is why we need guns.
sovereignman
Member Posts: 544 ✭✭✭
In March 2009, the dash-cam police video of what transpired when Ryan Moats was stopped in a hospital parking lot shocked many. In the Dallas Morning News, the details unfolded. Moats ran a red light trying to get his wife to the hospital in time to see her dying mother. The police officer stopped Moats in the hospital parking lot. Even after hearing the details, Officer Robert Powell repeatedly told Moats "shut your mouth" and refused to let him go, even after hospital personnel told the officer the woman was dying right then. Jonetta Collinsworth died while Officer Powell was exercising his authority. This was not the first incident of Officer Powell exhibiting inappropriate behavior during traffic stops.
A minister with a heart condition was Tased by police in Webster, Texas. The minister was going to the aid of a parishioner whom police had stopped. According to reports, the minister asked the officers why the parishioner was stopped. Officers claimed the minister turned violent, but parishioners reported that officers followed Pastor Moran into the church, kicked the church door several times, Tased Moran and sprayed pepper spray, hitting several parishioners. Pastor Moran was hospitalized and arrested. He plans to seek legal counsel, according to Fox News.
An Ohio Department of Motor Vehicles clerk was the only person charged in illegal searches on the background of 2010 "American Idol" runner-up Crystal Bowersox, even though five different Ohio police agencies were involved. The Crime Report released details of the events, which included researching whether she had traffic violations on her record, under the guise that she was the victim of identity theft.
A minister with a heart condition was Tased by police in Webster, Texas. The minister was going to the aid of a parishioner whom police had stopped. According to reports, the minister asked the officers why the parishioner was stopped. Officers claimed the minister turned violent, but parishioners reported that officers followed Pastor Moran into the church, kicked the church door several times, Tased Moran and sprayed pepper spray, hitting several parishioners. Pastor Moran was hospitalized and arrested. He plans to seek legal counsel, according to Fox News.
An Ohio Department of Motor Vehicles clerk was the only person charged in illegal searches on the background of 2010 "American Idol" runner-up Crystal Bowersox, even though five different Ohio police agencies were involved. The Crime Report released details of the events, which included researching whether she had traffic violations on her record, under the guise that she was the victim of identity theft.
Comments
quote:This is why we need guns.....and face-paint, camoflage, baseball bats, stout rope, knives and those compound level clamps used for castrating livestock (don't know the tecnical name for these).
And night vision goggles, and battery packs, and almond M&M's. We keep running out of the almond M&M's and I'm getting sick and frickin' tired of it.
Video open Firearm Carry.
It will take a whole bunch of people being fed up and I just don't see it.
Well, just one gun and one trigger finger won't put a dent in the tax feeder army.
It will take a whole bunch of people being fed up and I just don't see it.
More coming on board every day, last count I was told there is well over 300,000 Constitutionalists.
quote:Originally posted by Wolf.
quote:This is why we need guns.....and face-paint, camoflage, baseball bats, stout rope, knives and those compound level clamps used for castrating livestock (don't know the tecnical name for these).
And night vision goggles, and battery packs, and almond M&M's. We keep running out of the almond M&M's and I'm getting sick and frickin' tired of it.
Damn straight!!!....and beef jerky....don't forget beef jerky!
Just as with any other profession. A few bad ones, most of them are pretty decent, just like yourselves. Hell, for over 40 years I have worked among them, along side them, for them and been subjected to their lawful actions involving my personal behavior. Over these 40 years I have rarely seen any police act as badly as many of you here say they act on a daily basis.
BTW, I have never been nor am I a police officer.
And this is why we need to be able to tell the difference between police who are thugs and police who are as professional and polite as any of us.
Just as with any other profession. A few bad ones, most of them are pretty decent, just like yourselves. Hell, for over 40 years I have worked among them, along side them, for them and been subjected to their lawful actions involving my personal behavior. Over these 40 years I have rarely seen any police act as badly as many of you here say they act on a daily basis.
BTW, I have never been nor am I a police officer.
Bad police are like people who would buy one of Erics offerings. You can't really believe they exist until you actually see one. On the other hand, from a national pool they SEEM common, they are not, most are like us and run like hell [:0][:D]
I realize that putting your hand in your pocket during a traffic stop isn't necessarily a smart thing to do, but the kids were probably nervous about being stopped. Common sense should tell the cop that this wasn't one of those times to pull his gun. He shoulda just told the kid to keep his hands out of his pocket, but noooo, just as soon as there's legal justification, out comes the ol' Sig.
How To invoke your rights with The Police
Video open Firearm Carry.
That video is priceless! It shows so many important things. Did you notice how non-confrontational the cop became when he realized the citizen was armed? The cop looked deflated/flumuxed when he found that his usual advantage was countered.
It is my opinion that many of these cops are not tough guys who crave risky situations. Rather they're guys with a low self image who crave the feeling of power they get by using a mechanical advantage (gun, pepper spray, taser). Not all, but some.
Are you saying if you were pepper sprayed, you'd SHOOT a policeman?
If you were tased, you'd be ABLE to shoot a policeman?
If you were stopped at a light wrongly, you'd SHOOT a policeman?
If the police were searching your home, you'd SHOOT one of them?
What about robbers, muggers, rabid dogs, rapists, druggies, carjackeers, zombies, bears, wolves, etc.? Not ONE of the people in your scenarios would have improved their situation if they had had a gun--much less if they had used it.
Do you not feel THEY are a legitimate reason for having a gun? I think this is an example of a keyboard ranger--feeling tough behind his desk.
So you say you need guns...to protect yourself from the POLICE?
Are you saying if you were pepper sprayed, you'd SHOOT a policeman?
If you were tased, you'd be ABLE to shoot a policeman?
If you were stopped at a light wrongly, you'd SHOOT a policeman?
If the police were searching your home, you'd SHOOT one of them?
What about robbers, muggers, rabid dogs, rapists, druggies, carjackeers, zombies, bears, wolves, etc.? Not ONE of the people in your scenarios would have improved their situation if they had had a gun--much less if they had used it.
Do you not feel THEY are a legitimate reason for having a gun? I think this is an example of a keyboard ranger--feeling tough behind his desk.
Obviously shooting a cop for any of those reasons would be dumb. I don't think that is the premise.
Being very general, cops have set up an us vs them mentality. When they set that up, naturally citizens seek to level the playing field by removing some of the tools an abusing cop might use to abuse the citizen's rights. When both sides are carrying guns, civility ensues...because one side loses it's mechanical advantage.
Here is another example of the us vs them game that some cops play where winning and punishment becomes a higher priority than the law:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zb9VnvbYGak&feature=related
quote:Originally posted by Navybat
So you say you need guns...to protect yourself from the POLICE?
Are you saying if you were pepper sprayed, you'd SHOOT a policeman?
If you were tased, you'd be ABLE to shoot a policeman?
If you were stopped at a light wrongly, you'd SHOOT a policeman?
If the police were searching your home, you'd SHOOT one of them?
What about robbers, muggers, rabid dogs, rapists, druggies, carjackeers, zombies, bears, wolves, etc.? Not ONE of the people in your scenarios would have improved their situation if they had had a gun--much less if they had used it.
Do you not feel THEY are a legitimate reason for having a gun? I think this is an example of a keyboard ranger--feeling tough behind his desk.
Obviously shooting a cop for any of those reasons would be dumb. I don't think that is the premise.
Being very general, cops have set up an us vs them mentality. When they set that up, naturally citizens seek to level the playing field by removing some of the tools an abusing cop might use to abuse the citizen's rights. When both sides are carrying guns, civility ensues.
Here is another example of the us vs them game that some cops play where winning and punishment becomes a higher priority than the law:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zb9VnvbYGak&feature=related
Ok, Wyatt, I take your point. However, the OP states in the title: "This is why we need guns" and then proceeds to give the examples I laid out. I think the examples are wrong, and a better prepped thread might get his point across better. In fact, the reason I posted as I did is because I think it puts across the WRONG premise--that to shoot when there is no need...or to be armed when it won't help.
But I understand your point of view.
Ok, Wyatt, I take your point. However, the OP states in the title: "This is why we need guns" and then proceeds to give the examples I laid out. I think the examples are wrong, and a better prepped thread might get his point across better. In fact, the reason I posted as I did is because I think it puts across the WRONG premise--that to shoot when there is no need...or to be armed when it won't help.
But I understand your point of view.
I have mixed emotions about these threads. I know they make me seem anti-cop. I think the issue is bigger than cops. I consider myself pro-peace officer, and a friend of their profession. I see the noble profession my stepdad spent 32 years in, being diminished by adrenelin junkies wearing badges these days.
It's kinda like the parental dilemma. Do you want to be your kid's best friend, or their parent?
You having a gun will prevent none of that, and most importantly, you having a gun SHOULD NOT prevent any of that.
I sure was glad the Ohio State troopers were able to get the rouge trucker pulled over at mile 93 North Bound on I-77 Friday afternoon, he probably saved some lives, mine included.
http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/athens.htm
Don
So you say you need guns...to protect yourself from the POLICE?
Are you saying if you were pepper sprayed, you'd SHOOT a policeman?
If you were tased, you'd be ABLE to shoot a policeman?
If you were stopped at a light wrongly, you'd SHOOT a policeman?
If the police were searching your home, you'd SHOOT one of them?
What about robbers, muggers, rabid dogs, rapists, druggies, carjackeers, zombies, bears, wolves, etc.? Not ONE of the people in your scenarios would have improved their situation if they had had a gun--much less if they had used it.
Do you not feel THEY are a legitimate reason for having a gun? I think this is an example of a keyboard ranger--feeling tough behind his desk.
Apt and appropriate questions ... a lot of food for sane thought.
There are about 800,000 police officers in the US. I am sure some are having a bad day, acting like jerks, doing illegal things, acting mean and tough, being stupid, applying the law incorrectly, tazing grannies and small dogs preventing a guy from seeing somebody dying and even being human.
You having a gun will prevent none of that, and most importantly, you having a gun SHOULD NOT prevent any of that.
I sure was glad the Ohio State troopers were able to get the rouge trucker pulled over at mile 93 North Bound on I-77 Friday afternoon, he probably saved some lives, mine included.
All true but, just like the captain in the left seat of the 737 I'm riding in, and just like the surgeon who's about to slice into my gut, we get to set the threshold very high for certain professions where the penalty for incompetence might be death.
I need guns because there are people out there who think they need guns to deal with the police.
David, I don't think most of the people making the point are suggesting using guns to deal with the police. It's more about exercizing the intent of the 2nd Amendment.
As one founding father said: "When the citizens fear their government, we have tyranny. When government fears the citizens, we have liberty."
It is apparent: We need guns to deal with police who annoy us.
The OP is a Sovereign Citizen. SCs believe in NO LAWS whatsoever. They make up their own driver licenses and car tags. A few have shot it out with the police during a traffic stop over a minor traffic infraction.
Slide over to the Gun Rights and Constitutional Law forum and do a little reading.
He states, "This is why we need guns." Then, he goes on to cite a couple of bad police contacts. What conclusion were we supposed to draw from that? Seriously?
It is apparent: We need guns to deal with police who annoy us.
The OP is a Sovereign Citizen. SCs believe in NO LAWS whatsoever. They make up their own driver licenses and car tags. A few have shot it out with the police during a traffic stop over a minor traffic infraction.
Slide over to the Gun Rights and Constitutional Law forum and do a little reading.
Shooting from the hip and getting the facts later, is my specialty. [:D]
******COPS ARE NOT YOUR FRIEND****************************
In the same way as a Naval Officer is not your "friend"...he's there to protect you.
He COULD be your friend, if you weren't immediately suspicious of him just because of his uniform. I'm sure many have families, kids, neighbors, dogs, cats, goldfish, some even have parents who raised them right. And seeing the scum of the earth all day, every day, may make ANYONE a little uptight while on the job.
I'm just saying I think your statement is a little unfair and oversimplified.
quote:Originally posted by partisan
******COPS ARE NOT YOUR FRIEND****************************
In the same way as a Naval Officer is not your "friend"...he's there to protect you.
He COULD be your friend, if you weren't immediately suspicious of him just because of his uniform. I'm sure many have families, kids, neighbors, dogs, cats, goldfish, some even have parents who raised them right. And seeing the scum of the earth all day, every day, may make ANYONE a little uptight while on the job.
I think that's a pretty reasoned response.
quote:Originally posted by partisan
******COPS ARE NOT YOUR FRIEND****************************
In the same way as a Naval Officer is not your "friend"...he's there to protect you.
He COULD be your friend, if you weren't immediately suspicious of him just because of his uniform. I'm sure many have families, kids, neighbors, dogs, cats, goldfish, some even have parents who raised them right. And seeing the scum of the earth all day, every day, may make ANYONE a little uptight while on the job.
I'm just saying I think your statement is a little unfair and oversimplified.
Agreed. This incident is old, just brough about to stir more hate toward cops.
quote:Originally posted by partisan
******COPS ARE NOT YOUR FRIEND****************************
In the same way as a Naval Officer is not your "friend"...he's there to protect you.
He COULD be your friend, if you weren't immediately suspicious of him just because of his uniform. I'm sure many have families, kids, neighbors, dogs, cats, goldfish, some even have parents who raised them right. And seeing the scum of the earth all day, every day, may make ANYONE a little uptight while on the job.
I'm just saying I think your statement is a little unfair and oversimplified.
Naval Officers do not interact with the general public as part of their job, so the comparison, IMO, is lacking.
Additionally, LEO's are not there to 'protect you'. They are there to clean up the mess after the threat of their protection has failed, find those that made the mess, and remove them from the general population. It is the rare crime that is stopped by LEO's.
We need firearms to protect ourselves from those that would do us harm. We need the second amendment to protect ourselves from those who would impose anti-Constitutional restraints upon us. The examples cited are not in the latter category, they are merely individuals who have exceeded their legitimate authority and who should be dealt with individually. The latter category can include self-protection from a sanctioned assault upon one's person or property by an LEO, as it would be LEO's who would be the first line of offense against the citizenry. We have not yet reached this point, again, IMO.
Brad Steele
And then again that is where it started too!
Way out in the wrong field. [:(] [:0] [:(]
They're out there guys, there are some truly bad cops. As the DWI case involving my employee is close to reaching a conclusion, we learn more about the rogue cop. This city is now being sued because he stopped some local teenage kids a few weeks ago, and while he had them on the side of the road one of them put his hand in his pocket to get his ID or something, and this cop pulled his gun on them. The kid comes from a solid local family, and they're suing over it.
I realize that putting your hand in your pocket during a traffic stop isn't necessarily a smart thing to do, but the kids were probably nervous about being stopped. Common sense should tell the cop that this wasn't one of those times to pull his gun. He shoulda just told the kid to keep his hands out of his pocket, but noooo, just as soon as there's legal justification, out comes the ol' Sig.
it all boils down to the police not respecting the rights of citizens, and improper training. Give some a gun and a bullet and they turn into Barney Fife.
The Officer screwed up one several levels. Once the ARMED individual refuse to cooperate, he should have drew his weapon and took him down and handcuffed him until it could be ascertained who he was and what has doing there. IF everything checked out, then fine, he get's his empty gun returned and all is good. If not, he goes to jail. The Officer was visably scared. He then did something SOOOOO Stupid. He turned his back on a confrontational armed subject. He's lucky he didn't get shot. He broke every Officer safty rule he could have. I hope his department put's him on a desk until he can get some proper training. Where I work, we get guys with guns regularly. They cooperate and they get their guns back if everything checks out. If I have a guy that does what this guy did, confrontational, backing away, he would be on the ground and cuffed at gun point. That's just basic police work and officer saftey. The officer failed to call for back up. With that many people around, he should. He must be in a very small town to be that "oh Well" about it. Then he sticks his hands in his pants when talking to the other guy?? With an armed person right in front of him? The stupidity knows no bounds.
I'm not sure what you were trying to show, but in my case you failed.
And I am just commenting on the "Open Carry" Video. On the Cop at the hospital, yeah. The cop was being an *.
I watched the first video. Not knowing what the situation was or why the officer was there, I heard the video guy say something about he saw whatever it was and stopped and came over. I saw several things that were wrong. One, the video guy wasn't doing himeself or open carry any favors. He was clearly confrontational and wanted to start an incident. If he was not part of the original situation, then involving himself in it was stupid and could have earned him a charge of interferring with a police officer in the performance of his duty. He could have been cited and jailed. Refusing a reasonable request to provide ID to the officer. While he may have had a legal right to open carry, he does not have a right to provoke or be confrontational while carrying that pistol. His refusal to cooperate with the officer was wrong. He struck me as someone looking for a fight.
The Officer screwed up one several levels. Once the ARMED individual refuse to cooperate, he should have drew his weapon and took him down and handcuffed him until it could be ascertained who he was and what has doing there. IF everything checked out, then fine, he get's his empty gun returned and all is good. If not, he goes to jail. The Officer was visably scared. He then did something SOOOOO Stupid. He turned his back on a confrontational armed subject. He's lucky he didn't get shot. He broke every Officer safty rule he could have. I hope his department put's him on a desk until he can get some proper training. Where I work, we get guys with guns regularly. They cooperate and they get their guns back if everything checks out. If I have a guy that does what this guy did, confrontational, backing away, he would be on the ground and cuffed at gun point. That's just basic police work and officer saftey. The officer failed to call for back up. With that many people around, he should. He must be in a very small town to be that "oh Well" about it. Then he sticks his hands in his pants when talking to the other guy?? With an armed person right in front of him? The stupidity knows no bounds.
I'm not sure what you were trying to show, but in my case you failed.
And I am just commenting on the "Open Carry" Video. On the Cop at the hospital, yeah. The cop was being an *.
The cop was being more than an *, he was being a 'Rambo". There is way to much of this in this country today, I believe departments need better training when it comes to the rights of constitutional citizens. Police have become statute enforcers instead of peace officers,way to often where there is no injured party.
You say you would have pulled your firearm, all because a man refused to give you his ID, Please! You sound like the Rambo at the hospital.
A little common sense please.
The video was posted so others could discuss the situations and the fixes. Look at some of the NH films on ID.
These police use common sense.They are not rambo's
the other video is more of the same. Some computer lawyer that thinks he knows the law. When actually he doesn't. He's invoking rights that don't really apply as he isn't under arrest. During the course of an investigation of a complaint,(which the officers received), they can ask for ID to determine exactly what they said. Who the person is and whether or not they have any warrents or bail issues. This child would be the first one to scream that the police DID NOTHING when they stopped a person with a gun and let them go because they refused to give ID. Then they went down the road and killed someone. You can't have it both ways. I'm guessing the officers knew they were being recorded or had been made aware of it in breifing and handled it accordingly. I sayy this because these things usally don't just happen once and word gets around fast.
It is irritating that some cops are willing to abuse citizens' rights so that they can avoid what they perceive to be a risk to themselves. You signed up to be a cop, not paperboy. Risk is part of the job - you don't get to reduce that risk at the expense of citizens' liberties...or at least you shouldn't be able to do that.
I know, you want to go home to your family at the end of the day, and I want you to do that too. But the job comes with risk, you knew that when you signed on. It's a little like a pilot taking a job flying for American Airlines, and then saying "But I really don't want to fly in the clouds."
Your job description involves risking your neck for citizens, not abusing citizens' right so as not to risk your neck.
quote:Originally posted by Navybat
So you say you need guns...to protect yourself from the POLICE?
Are you saying if you were pepper sprayed, you'd SHOOT a policeman?
If you were tased, you'd be ABLE to shoot a policeman?
If you were stopped at a light wrongly, you'd SHOOT a policeman?
If the police were searching your home, you'd SHOOT one of them?
What about robbers, muggers, rabid dogs, rapists, druggies, carjackeers, zombies, bears, wolves, etc.? Not ONE of the people in your scenarios would have improved their situation if they had had a gun--much less if they had used it.
Do you not feel THEY are a legitimate reason for having a gun? I think this is an example of a keyboard ranger--feeling tough behind his desk.
Apt and appropriate questions ... a lot of food for sane thought.
Just done for discussion .
I didn't notice that. If that is the case then I agree with you on that part of it.
quote:AS I said, he was coward looking for a confrontation.
Dunno about that. You can question his smarts, but cowards generally don't stand their ground against a cop...the odds aren't good.
quote:Our job also says we can shoot someone if we feel we have to.
Yeah but you better be able to defend the shooting in court. Your feeling that your safety is in jeopardy does not overcome a citizen's rights.
quote:And for an armed person to act like this guy did to prove whatever he trying to prove, was just beyond stupid.
Cops are going to have to adapt, because that kinda thing is going to happen more and more.
From all the videos we've seen, it appears that most cops need more training as to what a citizen can and can't do re: carrying a gun. The fact that a cop feels threatened because he doesn't know the law, should not give him the right to shoot the guy who is not breaking any laws just because the cop feels threatened.
quote:This idiot could have been shot without even touching the gun. Simply turning his gunside away from the officer and moving his hand toward it or toward that side of his body could have gotten him killed.
I disagree. The video clearly shows that the cop did not understand the law regarding open carry. That's a tough hurdle to clear when that would have been the root cause of a shooting, had a shooting occurred. There would have been no situation had the cop known the law. I forget the legal term, but the gist is that if you remove the initial mistake made by the cop not understanding open carry laws, then the rest of the incident or the potential incidents would not have happened - therefor the original screw up by the cop would have been the main reason for anything that follows.
Don't confuse the difference between what department policy allows, and what a jury will find. The cop made a huge mistake that could have escalated the situation. Surely he couldn't have been that confident in his knowledge of open carry law, given that he was wrong about it. When he felt that tinge of doubt, he should have deescalated the situation until he asked his supervisor what the law is.
Cops gotta ask themselves if they're willing to risk their career and financial well-being by trying to enforce a law they aren't perfectly clear about.
This is why we have guns...
http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/athens.htm
Don
Excellent history lesson.
Law-abiding McMinn County residents won the Battle of Athens because they were not hamstrung by "gun control " They showed us when citizens can and should use armed force to support the rule of law.
To bad ,today we have gone down the path of excessive gun control. To bad FFL dealers are part of the problem.
My favorite statement.