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The Batf succeeded
scottm21166
Member Posts: 20,723
Last year 5 gunsellers from local gunshows were arrested, their weapons seized, One guy had his rotweiler killed by agents as they kicked in his door at 3 AM.
They were all indicted this spring following an investigation.
SO I went up to the gunshow at WW fairgrounds this weekend and most all the non FFL tables are gone replaced by flashlight sales, holsters, ammunition and survival goods (like john wayne collectables and cowboy curios).
A little snooping around reveals; NO ONE WANTS TO RISK BEING JAILED OVER VAGUE LAWS AND SELECTIVE PROSECUTION.
I do not know the details of why these five guys were chosen from the many table holders who appeared to be acting as delers. I heard rumors but have no sense of how much is truth or speculation. I guess that will come out in their trials which will bankrupt each of the defendants unless they cut a deal. In the end, the BATF put the fear of government into the minds of Law Abiding citizens not to mention the 5 who were arrested.
If that was their goal, they were successful.
They were all indicted this spring following an investigation.
SO I went up to the gunshow at WW fairgrounds this weekend and most all the non FFL tables are gone replaced by flashlight sales, holsters, ammunition and survival goods (like john wayne collectables and cowboy curios).
A little snooping around reveals; NO ONE WANTS TO RISK BEING JAILED OVER VAGUE LAWS AND SELECTIVE PROSECUTION.
I do not know the details of why these five guys were chosen from the many table holders who appeared to be acting as delers. I heard rumors but have no sense of how much is truth or speculation. I guess that will come out in their trials which will bankrupt each of the defendants unless they cut a deal. In the end, the BATF put the fear of government into the minds of Law Abiding citizens not to mention the 5 who were arrested.
If that was their goal, they were successful.
Comments
the bigger FFls like it, but when the ATF turns on them, they will have no one to blame but themselves.
They been trying to put small FFLs out of business for decades.
the bigger FFls like it, but when the ATF turns on them, they will have no one to blame but themselves.
the guys they went after were private sellers who reportedly were breaking other laws like selling to canadians, felons, trading drugs for guns (rumor) or simply behaving in a manner consistant with a gun dealer.
A couple of the bigger sellers were warned to get an FFL or face prosecution because of the volume they were selling.
The smaller guys who normally are at every show don't know where the line of "too much or too many" exists so they just are not there anymore.
It makes the selection weak and the prices strong if you are just a buyer and it means the people promoting the shows are having a hard time filling the tables which will drive them out of business eventually.
That means, no gun show for anyone...sad but predictable
there fix'd it [:X]
quote:GB the bigger FFls likes it, but when the ATF turns on them, they will have no one to blame but themselves.
there fix'd it [:X]
Why would GB like that, small FFLs make them fees just as well as the bigger ones.
quote:Originally posted by Odawgp
quote:GB the bigger FFls likes it, but when the ATF turns on them, they will have no one to blame but themselves.
there fix'd it [:X]
Why would GB like that, small FFLs make them fees just as well as the bigger ones.
Not to mention most of the ffl's count on purchases from the privateers to enhanse their inventory at the show and back at the store. (especially the walk-in's)
I hear more complaints from the private guys at shows regarding FFL practices than I ever hear from licensed dealers about private collectors.
We know every state has a plan to close the "gun show loophole" it only makes sense to go after people who are selling guns without adhearing to registration protocol or background checks.
This is only odd when you consider that most mass killings are commited with legally purchased firearms (or those allowed by BATF sting operations).
The trial lasted 3 days, and the "dealer" was eventually acquitted, but he was out many thousands of dollars in legal fees.
After I testified, and was dismissed as a witness, I was allowed to sit in the audience and watch the rest of the trial. FWIW, I thought he was fried. It did appear to me that the government made a good case, and I figured the poor guy was headed to the pokey, but the jury saw it otherwise.
I didn't see the entire trial, so I couldn't tell whether there was a serious weakness in the government's case, or if it was a matter of jury nullification.
Either way, justice prevailed.
If there is no private gun ownership, they are out of a job, no? They'll just be BAT. [8]
I don't understand what BATF has to gain by scaring people away from guns.
If there is no private gun ownership, they are out of a job, no? They'll just be BAT. [8]
No I think it would be BATE [:D]
A few years ago, I had to go to Phoenix to testify in the trial of an "unlicensed dealer" who was charged with selling guns without a license. He was. He bought guns to re-sell, and sold guns at gun shows.
The trial lasted 3 days, and the "dealer" was eventually acquitted, but he was out many thousands of dollars in legal fees.
After I testified, and was dismissed as a witness, I was allowed to sit in the audience and watch the rest of the trial. FWIW, I thought he was fried. It did appear to me that the government made a good case, and I figured the poor guy was headed to the pokey, but the jury saw it otherwise.
I didn't see the entire trial, so I couldn't tell whether there was a serious weakness in the government's case, or if it was a matter of jury nullification.
the one guy (who's rotweiler was shot by agents) has an attorney who took a 20K retainer and told him to be prepared to spend 100k defending his case. He lost 186 guns that ere confiscated as well. If the guns were worth 500 avg. thats 90 grand or so.
He is retired from the Navy and stands to lose his retainer if not his pension outright.
Another guy is a retired cop, I don't know as much about his case but did hear that his pension would be revolked if he is convicted. I'm sure his legal expenses will be similar too.
So yeah, defending these charges will be very costly even if they are found "not guilty". In Washington, a jury of your peers is more likely to convict you of a gun crime than in Phoenix (especially in years past) I don't ho;d out much hope for any of these defendants unless they make a deal or plea bargain.
quote:Originally posted by Odawgp
quote:GB the bigger FFls likes it, but when the ATF turns on them, they will have no one to blame but themselves.
there fix'd it [:X]
Why would GB like that, small FFLs make them fees just as well as the bigger ones.
They don't like gun shows they don't make fee's there the OP was about non ffl's unless I misread it. They like that there are fewer venues for non FFL's to sell. they make fees when they are the only venue in town. GB is ok not the go to place by any means.
Justice may have prevailed, but the guy is still out a bunch of money.
That is one of the very bad parts of our system as it stands. So many innocent people plea bargain out because they can't afford to pay for a defense or settle a suit because it's cheaper than defending against it. Government offices, prosecutors and others use this regularly. It is disturbing that justice along with right and wrong have such a high price tag.
This is also why so many unconstitutional laws are on the books, it cost to much money to challenge them. Ever notice how many people with deep pockets get charges dropped. The state will let the case go so the law isn't challenged and thrown out.
This is just one example, the problem goes way further than just FFL's, even into the civil court system.
They been trying to put small FFLs out of business for decades.
the bigger FFls like it, but when the ATF turns on them, they will have no one to blame but themselves.
Your right its a slow process of the removal of God given rights, first you license the fools and make them believe that a license is required even though the Constitution protects you against this and when the power brokers have control of the fools that became a quasi government agent for the BATF then they thin the incense's out. It's all about control over the animals. Become a human.
quote:Originally posted by quickmajik
They been trying to put small FFLs out of business for decades.
the bigger FFls like it, but when the ATF turns on them, they will have no one to blame but themselves.
Your right its a slow process of the removal of God given rights, first you license the fools and make them believe that a license is required even though the Constitution protects you against this and when the power brokers have control of the fools that became a quasi government agent for the BATF then they thin the incense's out. It's all about control over the animals. Become a human.
If your gun rights are "God given" as you claim, why do you urge us to write our representatives? Shouldn't we instead pray to God to restore our gun rights? Yeah, just cut out the middleman (our representative) and ask God to protect our gun rights. What is wrong with that idea?
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by quickmajik
They been trying to put small FFLs out of business for decades.
the bigger FFls like it, but when the ATF turns on them, they will have no one to blame but themselves.
Your right its a slow process of the removal of God given rights, first you license the fools and make them believe that a license is required even though the Constitution protects you against this and when the power brokers have control of the fools that became a quasi government agent for the BATF then they thin the incense's out. It's all about control over the animals. Become a human.
If your gun rights are "God given" as you claim, why do you urge us to write our representatives? Shouldn't we instead pray to God to restore our gun rights? Yeah, just cut out the middleman (our representative) and ask God to protect our gun rights. What is wrong with that idea?
"If we may collect the sentiments of the people of America, from their own most solemn declarations, they hold this truth as self-evident, that all men are by nature free. No one man, therefore, or any class of men, have a right, by the law of nature, or of God, to assume or exercise authority over their fellows."
"But it is not necessary, for this purpose, that individuals should relinquish all their natural rights. Some are of such a nature that they cannot be surrendered. Of this kind are the rights of conscience, the right of enjoying and defending life, etc. Others are not necessary to be resigned in order to attain the end for which government is instituted; these therefore ought not to be given up." By Brutus
"When the British government began to increase its military presence in the colonies in the mid-eighteenth century, Massachusetts responded by calling upon its citizens to arm themselves in defense. One colonial newspaper argued that it was impossible to complain that this act was illegal since they were "British subjects, to whom the privilege of possessing arms is expressly recognized by the Bill of Rights" while another argued that this "is a natural right which the people have reserved to themselves, confirmed by the Bill of Rights, to keep arms for their own defense". 29 The newspaper cited Blackstone's commentaries on the laws of England, which had listed the "having and using arms for self preservation and defense" among the "absolute rights of individuals." The colonists felt they had an absolute right at common law to own firearms.
Together with freedom of the press, the right to keep and bear arms became one of the individual rights most prized by the colonists. When British troops seized a militia arsenal in September, 1774, and incorrect rumors that colonists had been killed spread through Massachusetts, 60,000 citizens took up arms. 30 A few months later, when Patrick Henry delivered his famed "Give me liberty or give me death" speech, he spoke in support of a proposition "that a well regulated militia, composed of gentlemen and freemen, is the natural strength and only security of a free government...." Throughout the following revolution, formal and informal units of armed citizens obstructed British communication, cut off foraging parties, and harassed the thinly stretched regular forces. When seven states adopted state "bills of rights" following the Declaration of Independence, each of those bills of rights provided either for protection of the concept of a militia or for an express right to keep and bear arms."
Edit- http://www.constitution.org/mil/rkba1982.htm
I don't know, your probably right. The 2nd could be just a privilege given to us by Government.
The right to protect yourself,your loved ones, and those around you does not come from government. Look into the history of the 2nd. Our founders knew that the amendments as they were written and originally understood are tied to the organic and common laws which have a distant path to the Magna Carta and the Holy Scripture in some part.
The king makes a law that say's you can no longer kill the kings deer to feed yourself and your family. Do you allow your wife and children to starve if that is all the food available?
The Law of Commons states you have the right to protect yourselves by any means possible, can the king remove this right?
There has never been a question in my mind about the goal of BATFE. I thought it was clear even before they did the home invasion and crippled Ken Ballew. In the early days of BATFE, when they were still ATF, several of their agents openly admitted what they existed for. If anybody still has any doubt they just ain't looking.
[:)] Agreed! in Spades.
I was specifically informed that having my business out in the country was not acceptable and if I wanted to be renewed, I needed to have a location "within a town". I'd never heard that was a requirement but the ATF person said the police could "provide more security" if it was in town.
ATF intimidated me out of business last spring. Maybe I was too easily spooked since I talked with another local FFL dealer who stood his ground and got away with a LOT of infractions. On the other hand, he had a heart attack soon after the episode with ATF so maybe he didn't get off so easy after all.
I was specifically informed that having my business out in the country was not acceptable and if I wanted to be renewed, I needed to have a location "within a town". I'd never heard that was a requirement but the ATF person said the police could "provide more security" if it was in town.
This is a perfect (horrible for Mobuck) example of what I am talking about.
All you are supposed to need is a place to sell em, and business hours.
quote:Originally posted by Mobuck
ATF intimidated me out of business last spring. Maybe I was too easily spooked since I talked with another local FFL dealer who stood his ground and got away with a LOT of infractions. On the other hand, he had a heart attack soon after the episode with ATF so maybe he didn't get off so easy after all.
I was specifically informed that having my business out in the country was not acceptable and if I wanted to be renewed, I needed to have a location "within a town". I'd never heard that was a requirement but the ATF person said the police could "provide more security" if it was in town.
This is a perfect (horrible for Mobuck) example of what I am talking about.
All you are supposed to need is a place to sell em, and business hours.
The ATf time is coming to and end, if not end then reigned in for a while at least.
Executive Branch - POLITICS
Documents Suggest Holder Knew About 'Fast and Furious' Earlier Than He Claimed
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/03/documents-suggest-holder-knew-about-fast-and-furious-earlier-than-claimed/#ixzz1ZmaYu7UH