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National reciprosity

torosapotorosapo Member Posts: 4,946
With Illinois finally getting a concealed carry law, all 50 staes hve it now, in some form or other. I feel it's now time to push for ccw to be recognized the same way drivers and marraige licenses are.

I know some will come out with the lame arguement that not all states have the same level of training requirements. I haven't checked, but am willing to bet the same could be said for drivers licenses and car insurance. Some states require a safety inspection while others don't. Does that mean because I live in a state without a safety inspection, I shouldn't be able to drive my car through the states that do? The answer of course is no. My car is insured and registered as my state requires. That allows me to drive anywhere in the country as long as I follow the laws the individual states have passed pertaining to the roads. The same should apply to concealed carry. As long as I follow the restrictions of where I carry(bars, churches or other restrictions) I should be able to execise my individual civil right to carry.

With more and more gun owners and concealed carry permit holders, we should be able to drive from one coast to the other without becoming felons due to crossing state lines.

Comments

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    Don McManusDon McManus Member Posts: 23,527 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would agree if the law is simply:

    'A Concealed Carry permit issued by any state shall be valid in all states.'

    The problem with Federal involvement, however, is that there are any number of states that will insist upon uniform standards. These will be states like New York, Illinois, California, New Jersey, etc. States with large populations that exert undue influence upon legislation.

    I would much rather have to deal with the laws of the individual states than have the Federal Government impose stricter standards upon those states that do not have them now.

    In response to your 'As long as I follow the restrictions of where I carry(bars, churches or other restrictions) I should be able to execise my individual civil right to carry.' the only proper Federal answer is the complete elimination of permitting requirements for concealed carry. After all, the 2nd Amendment tells us that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

    The requirement of a permit to bear arms is obviously an infringement, though apparently that concept escapes the vast majority of Americans, including the majority of gun owners.
    Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.

    Brad Steele
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    torosapotorosapo Member Posts: 4,946
    edited November -1
    Don, I understand where you are coming from about the states like Ca and Il.

    I also agree that any paper permit is an infringement, I'm a supporter of Constitutional carry. I also believe that the background check is another infringement. In the state I live in it costs $25, I look at that as being the same as a poll tax.

    What I'm saying is that is not a valid arguement if it is compared to cars and marriages. It has been argued that driving a car on the public roads is not a civil right. It has been argued in court that concealed carry is. Look at Il, the state was told they could not completely deny concealed carry. Just recently a federal judge told the city of Chicago they could not ban gun stores, because the citizens have a civil right to own guns.

    I'm wondering how the states that do not have a same sex marriage law on the books are going to react when the supreme court orders them to recognize marriage licenses from states that do.
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    Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 66,372 ******
    edited November -1
    Amendment 2 is all we need.
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
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    torosapotorosapo Member Posts: 4,946
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
    Amendment 2 is all we need.


    In a perfect world ( no pun intended ) you're right. The liberals and progressives have trampled all over it so far.
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    torosapotorosapo Member Posts: 4,946
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by us55840

    Would you have a reference to the federal law that says each state must honor another states marriage license or drivers permit?

    OR is it just an unwritten agreement between the states?

    [?][?]


    You know I'm not sure now you mention it. I will have to do some research on it.
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    torosapotorosapo Member Posts: 4,946
    edited November -1
    I think that we might be able to use the Full Faith and Credit Cause, art 4 section 1 of the constitution.

    I do believe that same sex marriage proponents will use it to force it on states that don't recognize it.

    The clause's application to state-sanctioned same-sex marriages, civil unions, and domestic partnerships is unresolved. Between 1996 and 2004, 39 states passed laws and constitutional amendments that defined marriage as consisting solely of different-sex couples. Most explicitly prohibit the state from honoring same-sex marriages performed in other states and countries. Same-sex marriage is legal in 18 states (in CA, CT, IA, MA, NJ, NM and UT by court decision (the Supreme Court has temporarily stayed the UT court decision); in DE, HI, IL, MN, NH, NY, RI and VT by the state legislature; and in ME, MD and WA by popular vote), as well as the District of Columbia. In August 2007, a federal appeals court held that the clause did require Oklahoma to issue a revised birth certificate showing both adoptive parents of a child born in Oklahoma who had been adopted by a same-sex couple married in another state.[18] Another federal appeals court held differently in April 2011 in a Louisiana case, Adar v. Smith.[19]
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    Don McManusDon McManus Member Posts: 23,527 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by torosapo
    I think that we might be able to use the Full Faith and Credit Cause, art 4 section 1 of the constitution.

    I do believe that same sex marriage proponents will use it to force it on states that don't recognize it.

    The clause's application to state-sanctioned same-sex marriages, civil unions, and domestic partnerships is unresolved. Between 1996 and 2004, 39 states passed laws and constitutional amendments that defined marriage as consisting solely of different-sex couples. Most explicitly prohibit the state from honoring same-sex marriages performed in other states and countries. Same-sex marriage is legal in 18 states (in CA, CT, IA, MA, NJ, NM and UT by court decision (the Supreme Court has temporarily stayed the UT court decision); in DE, HI, IL, MN, NH, NY, RI and VT by the state legislature; and in ME, MD and WA by popular vote), as well as the District of Columbia. In August 2007, a federal appeals court held that the clause did require Oklahoma to issue a revised birth certificate showing both adoptive parents of a child born in Oklahoma who had been adopted by a same-sex couple married in another state.[18] Another federal appeals court held differently in April 2011 in a Louisiana case, Adar v. Smith.[19]




    The Defense of Marriage Act (the portion still in effect, anyway) specifically confirms the power of the states to define marriage. The Federal definition of marriage contained within the act was struck down.
    Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.

    Brad Steele
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    torosapotorosapo Member Posts: 4,946
    edited November -1
    I'm not advocating any new federal laws to support universal ccw. What I'm trying to figure out is how we can use existing laws to support it.

    Is there a specific law that says all states must honor drivers licenses from the other states? Is there some way that we can use the system to work in our favor that someone hasn't even looked at before?

    I will admit that I'm far from being the smartest guy on the forum. Saying that, there has to be some way we can work out some way to get our civil rights back without adding more bureacratic bs into the mix.
  • Options
    Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 66,372 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by torosapo
    quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
    Amendment 2 is all we need.


    In a perfect world ( no pun intended ) you're right. The liberals and progressives have trampled all over it so far.
    It is so crystal clear and they have done so, what new idea is going to work?
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • Options
    torosapotorosapo Member Posts: 4,946
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
    quote:Originally posted by torosapo
    quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
    Amendment 2 is all we need.


    In a perfect world ( no pun intended ) you're right. The liberals and progressives have trampled all over it so far.
    It is so crystal clear and they have done so, what new idea is going to work?


    I don't know what will work.[:(][:(!]
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    Jim RauJim Rau Member Posts: 3,550
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by torosapo
    With Illinois finally getting a concealed carry law, all 50 staes hve it now, in some form or other. I feel it's now time to push for ccw to be recognized the same way drivers and marraige licenses are.

    I know some will come out with the lame arguement that not all states have the same level of training requirements. I haven't checked, but am willing to bet the same could be said for drivers licenses and car insurance. Some states require a safety inspection while others don't. Does that mean because I live in a state without a safety inspection, I shouldn't be able to drive my car through the states that do? The answer of course is no. My car is insured and registered as my state requires. That allows me to drive anywhere in the country as long as I follow the laws the individual states have passed pertaining to the roads. The same should apply to concealed carry. As long as I follow the restrictions of where I carry(bars, churches or other restrictions) I should be able to execise my individual civil right to carry.

    With more and more gun owners and concealed carry permit holders, we should be able to drive from one coast to the other without becoming felons due to crossing state lines.

    I agree, but sense 'training' is not a requirement to exercise OUR RIGHTS it should not be an issue.[:D] Good luck with trying get the 'progressive' majority to go along with that![;)]
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    Don McManusDon McManus Member Posts: 23,527 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by torosapo
    I'm not advocating any new federal laws to support universal ccw. What I'm trying to figure out is how we can use existing laws to support it.

    Is there a specific law that says all states must honor drivers licenses from the other states? Is there some way that we can use the system to work in our favor that someone hasn't even looked at before?

    I will admit that I'm far from being the smartest guy on the forum. Saying that, there has to be some way we can work out some way to get our civil rights back without adding more bureacratic bs into the mix.


    I am not a big fan of twisting existing statute to bring and unrelated issue into the fold. I am unaware of existing Federal Statute that demands states accept driver licensing from all other states, though it may exist. Even if it does, there is no relationship between driver licensing and CC Licensing. To twist such a statute as a precedent for a Federal CC statute would open the door to any number of Federal Laws regarding safety, emissions [:)], etc. as is now done with automobiles.

    Federal involvement would only be a positive, IMO, if by statute a law was enacted that, in recognition of the 2nd Amendment, no state or other government entity can pass any law restricting the carry, concealed or otherwise, of firearms by American citizens or resident aliens.

    We know this is not going to happen until the attitude of the country changes, and for that reason I see no potential upside for Federal involvement in the Concealed Carry question at this time.
    Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.

    Brad Steele
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    llama girlllama girl Member Posts: 605 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I live 12 miles from the Peoples Republik of NY. My local gun shop has stopped selling NY people ammo. I was heard to say don't sell our PA bullets to them. They voted for them sum butches, they voted for them, let them live with it.
    Also our local Wally World won't sell them guns(so says the signs) because of threats of law suits from from their czars. The SAFE ACT will charge you with a gun crime for a magazine that holds over 10 rounds.
    PA allows them to get a CCW in this state, but if we go to NY with 1 we get a year in jail. PA needs to have THAT resiprocity in this state!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Enforcible by any citizens arrest. They let them hunt here(? must be the money). Maybe we could get some free rifles.
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    COBmmcmssCOBmmcmss Member Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Since the 2nd Amendment is part of our Bill of Rights, the only solid approach for all states to recognize this right is a similar path that was used for our 4th Amendment rights.

    Remember, back prior to 1965, the state police were NOT required to follow the Federal Constitution as it pertained to your 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendments. There are precedent setting cases (e.g. Miranda, Gideon, Terry, etc.) that forced certain actions, not the least of which were to force the states to recognize a Federal right in a state proceeding.

    The law is always moving. What I am baffled by is that it took this long for cases to come to the SCOTUS and be heard. We are most certainly NOT at the end of the road on this battle. It is a long time coming and a longer time to get the results most of us here desire.

    There is a balance and constant tension between "States Rights" and what I call "Creeping Federalism". Each state is a sovereign unit; however, over the years the Federal Government has continued to erode State Sovereignty and forced Federal compliance. The other side of that is we have recognized Civil Rights in all states; we have an Federal Interstate Highway system; we have many of our rights recognized in state courts across the nation.

    The point at issue:
    If you're for State Sovereignty, then how can you demand a state recognize a privilege from another state (e.g. Driver's License)?

    If you're for more Federalism, then how can you say each individual state ought to have the ability to regulate their own area?

    Personally, I believe each state "bought into" our Constitution and needs to be held to it over any other document. What I do NOT believe is that the politicians in D.C. have as MUCH power as we (the states and the courts) have allowed them to perceive they carry. I believe our Constitution was quite clear on the powers allotted to each branch of the Federal Government. Healthcare is NOT one of them. PERIOD.

    JMHO and 2 cents worth.

    COB
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    TfloggerTflogger Member Posts: 3,313 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by llama girl
    I live 12 miles from the Peoples Republik of NY. My local gun shop has stopped selling NY people ammo. I was heard to say don't sell our PA bullets to them. They voted for them sum butches, they voted for them, let them live with it.
    Also our local Wally World won't sell them guns(so says the signs) because of threats of law suits from from their czars. The SAFE ACT will charge you with a gun crime for a magazine that holds over 10 rounds.
    PA allows them to get a CCW in this state, but if we go to NY with 1 we get a year in jail. PA needs to have THAT resiprocity in this state!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Enforcible by any citizens arrest. They let them hunt here(? must be the money). Maybe we could get some free rifles.

    As someone who has hunted and worked in both states I understand your anger.
    Us western, north country and southern tier New Yorkers agree with you
    The jerks in NYC and Albany need a Remington enema!
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    RancottRancott Member Posts: 14 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    What about the 4th Amendment?
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    RancottRancott Member Posts: 14 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm pro-gun, probably more so than most, but when the constitutionality of laws and or bills are proposed, where does one stand on the 4th and 10th? In my case I left my home state to go 1,000 miles to one that most suites my beliefs and preferences. Personally, I would like to see the 5th evoked.
    Scott
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    4205raymond4205raymond Member Posts: 3,319 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    OK,I have a unrestricted New York State permit.I have a 2nd home in Virginia.I take the Non-resident Utah test the end of April and the permit gets me thru all states in between and Virginia except Maryland. How do I legally get thru Maryland? Anyone with experience dealing with Maryland? Thank you.
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    4205raymond4205raymond Member Posts: 3,319 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    us55840,sounds like good advice.After studying up on Maryland laws, sounds like your advice is my only option. They don't want to give out permits to their own residents, so I don't stand a snowballs chance in H of getting a non-resident permit.Will not break the speed limit in Maryland.
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