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background check/denial/Upin legal issues

norgexxxnorgexxx Member Posts: 88 ✭✭
edited September 2017 in Gun Rights and Constitutional Law
Not very proud of it, but 30+ years ago I was arrested in CA for felony possession of a controlled substance, less then an ounce of dope. I did sometime in the San Diego county pokey, walked the straight and narrow, and a couple years later CA reduced it to a misdemeanor. I had moved to MN, applied for and received a UPIN number from the FBI to expedite firearm purchases about 20 years ago. I have made over 60+ gun purchases over the ensuing years, indeed, a substantial part of our retirement 'investments' are in the gun safes. I have also made several Class3 machine-gun purchases, and cleared the background checks in a timely fashion. Suddenly, last year I was denied, out of the blue. Sent in the proper inquiry paperwork, but they wouldn't tell me anything because of my 'privacy'......(have you ever heard anything so stupid?) So I went through the whole application for a UPIN thing all over again. 14 months passed before I heard a response. They are denying me my 2nd Am rights based on a recent modification to the CA law I was convicted under that states that even with reduction one cannot own 'certain types of firearms' aka 'assualt style' etc. etc. (Violation of habeus corpus?) They also state the the simple 'possession charge "could be interputed by the State of MN as a crime of violence".....could be??? I have had a MN conceal carry permit for 10+ years, and no, they do not consider anything in my background a 'crime of violence'. The letter from hte FBI denied my request to inform me as to why, after all these years, they suddenly decided to 'review' my 2nd Am rights? But really, someone instigated this, I refuse to believe that some FBI agent was just sitting at his/her desk and thought; "how can I mess with norgexxx today?" Curiously, I was denied just weeks after I was named as a delegate to the local GOP convention....about the same time the IRS decided to audit our taxes....no joke. The questions being many, but here goes:
1) I see clear cut violations of the constitution rights in a)habeus-corpus, b)due process, c) bearing arms, d) right to know my accuser, e)secure in my home and property and probably a couple more.
2) Obviously, I cannot go to the FBI for protection, but could I ask the Justice Dept. for a criminal investigation of what has happened to me?
3)I am currently in somewhat poor health, disabled vet, and I don't want to sell all my firearms just to pay a lawyer so.....I can own firearms.....I mean....WTH?? Besides, they are to help support my wife when I am gone. Besides, selling all my firearms would probably only get me a downpayment on a lawyer, as they want your first and last born nowadays just to talk to them.....plus most of them are demon-cRats.
4) I'm just a little guy trying to enjoy my retirement, is there any realistic chance of succeeding against the entire Fedeeral Government?
5) If I sell my firearms, am I not committing another crime, after all I am in possession of them already, and they say I shouldn't have them....after they approved me buying them for 20+ years?
6) Does any lawyer take 2nd Am. cases pro-bono?
7) Is there a lawsuit here I could win?
8) How do i get an 'order of protection' against law-enforcement until I am able to settle this issue?
9) The local police chief and sheriff are on board with me, and will not 'bust' me. They have known me for decades.
10) Shows how messed up this is, having a MN conceal carry permit allows one to forego the FBI instant background check when purchasing a firearm.....so I can now legally buy firearms, but cannot legally possess firearms?!?! And no one at the FBI will talk to me 'for the sake of my privacy'! And people wonder why we want to drain the swamp?

Comments

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    norgexxxnorgexxx Member Posts: 88 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Forgot to ask, how do I dispose of my machine-guns legally? How much trouble am I in if they are not in my possession, when they are supposed to be, but I, supposedly, am not allowed to have them? The FBI has some sicko-type people working for them to do this to a person.
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    Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 66,294 ******
    edited November -1
    You're definitely going to need legal help on this one. Suits against the government are super expensive. Maybe start a gofundme or something like that, rather than trying to sell your firearms?

    Also, I think you're walking a fine line with the plan of selling off your guns, bought as an investment, might need to get an FFL for that. The BATFE takes a dim view of you making lots of moulah off of gun sales without a license.

    At a bare minimum, you're probably going to want to set up a trust, and it would be a good idea to get legal help for that too.
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
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    norgexxxnorgexxx Member Posts: 88 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Soooooo, you're confirming my thoughts that:
    I will have to sell my guns,
    To hire a lawyer to clarify my right to own a gun,
    But I will have to hire a lawyer first before I can sell my guns
    Or get an FFL to sell them, because I can't own them???
    So.....what do you think are my chances of getting an FFL??
    Or you suggest a go-fund-me account.......
    yea, like people are going to line up to support me on that....
    not real encouraging, but what I was afraid of.
    Guess the government can do to a person, whatever they want.
    Justice for rich, liberty for the powerful.
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    Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 66,294 ******
    edited November -1
    Sorry, that is how I see it. Do look into putting your guns into a trust though. That is advisable regardless.
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
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    NeoBlackdogNeoBlackdog Member Posts: 16,654 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Get in touch with the NRA, the GOA, and any other pro-gun organization you can find. Sounds like just the kind of fight they would take on.
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    norgexxxnorgexxx Member Posts: 88 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    That's what I thought Dog, but whenever you actually try to contact them you get the same run-a-round that you get when calling a .gov office. Automated responses, automated answers, and dial-tones. And of course, when they actually direct you to someone, that person never actually answers their phones, instead you are directed to leave a brief message and number and they'll get back to you........yea, right. Soooo, they have my name and number already, but the phone ain't been ringing......Of course, they have no idea why I called them, but they ain't calling me back.
    Funny thing tho, the phone rings at least twice a week from their phone-banks trying to get money from me 'to fight the liberal gun-grabbers in Congress'. Guess Wayne La'Pierre needs another pay raise, or a bigger jet.
    Methinks that all their so-called 'battles' are mostly publicity stunts, carefully staged and managed for a high profile client/manufacturer. Then carefully crafted for maximum effect during membership and fundraising drives. I'm just another poster-child for how things work in the real-world.
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    Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 66,294 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by norgexxx
    That's what I thought Dog, but whenever you actually try to contact them you get the same run-a-round that you get when calling a .gov office. Automated responses, automated answers, and dial-tones. And of course, when they actually direct you to someone, that person never actually answers their phones, instead you are directed to leave a brief message and number and they'll get back to you........yea, right. Soooo, they have my name and number already, but the phone ain't been ringing......Of course, they have no idea why I called them, but they ain't calling me back.
    Funny thing tho, the phone rings at least twice a week from their phone-banks trying to get money from me 'to fight the liberal gun-grabbers in Congress'. Guess Wayne La'Pierre needs another pay raise, or a bigger jet.
    Methinks that all their so-called 'battles' are mostly publicity stunts, carefully staged and managed for a high profile client/manufacturer. Then carefully crafted for maximum effect during membership and fundraising drives. I'm just another poster-child for how things work in the real-world.
    I have had good luck getting in touch with SAF.org. You might try them. Unlike the NRA, they understand 2A and actually win legal battles that benefit gun owners.
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
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    norgexxxnorgexxx Member Posts: 88 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks Dog, and Mr. P. Know you mean well, and will look into the options you have both mentioned. BUT, I have another option to consider, what do you guys think of this:
    Alert the Feds to my 'holdings' by publishing a letter to the editor in the local rag, and dare them to arrest me. Once done, there is no going back and they will, indeed, act with an arrest and seizure. BUT, now they will have to give me a court-appointed attorney, or allow me to represent myself. In that case, I would now have the ability to generate a whole lotta negative plublicity for them, get the attention of the Justice Dept. (their bosses) and kinda force the NRA/GOA's hand, as they will be construed as abandoning a wrongfully accused gun-owner. Thoughts?
    P.S. Funny thing, considering, but I KNOW for a fact that there are a couple of Feebies and ATF agents that regularly comment and read/scan these forums. Mostly the give advice and guidance. I'd be willing to bet my eye-teeth that they have read this 'topic'. And now they have just slunk away with nothing to say. Yep, real good members aren't they. Jerks. But thanks, it's nice to vent a bit, and get the facts out there.
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    Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 66,294 ******
    edited November -1
    Personally, I don't think starting out in a position where you're in jeopardy of jail time is all that wise a vantage. Forcing the government to act, hoping to trap them in their own game will not end well for you.

    As you note, they have nearly unlimited resources and the upper hand of authority, not to mention they're frequently unbridled by such niceties as "playing by the rules".

    Good luck with whatever path you choose.
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
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    pickenuppickenup Member Posts: 22,844 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
    I have had good luck getting in touch with SAF.org. You might try them. Unlike the NRA, they understand 2A and actually win legal battles that benefit gun owners.
    I would second trying the Second Amendment Foundation.
    Sounds like you have tried the "other" organization and didn't get very far. surprise, surprise.

    Not the same circumstances but you might want to read a bit on what happened to Kevin.
    Maybe "forcing their hand" isn't the best choice.

    http://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=197747

    http://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=206797

    http://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=241344
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    norgexxxnorgexxx Member Posts: 88 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks for the responses. Yea, trying to trap the Feebies at their own game only works out in the movies.....but I do like the idea of the govt. having to pay for my lawyer! SAF sounds like the way to go. Guess I'll give them a shout after the week-end. If anyone else reading this has any additional suggestions or information, I will be checking back here daily for a while to learn anything that anyone else has to offer up.
    Blessings
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    Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 66,294 ******
    edited November -1
    While I think this was an appropriate place to post this, you might try re-posting in General Discussion. A lot of the guys that post in that forum will have some additional advice (you'll have to sift through responses) and a good portion of them don't visit this forum.
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
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    Don McManusDon McManus Member Posts: 23,486 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would second contacting the SAF.

    Both have a long list of lawsuit victories regarding gun rights, and even sometimes tackle the questionable cases, such as yours. Some organizations may shy away from coming to the aid of an ex-con, but if the principle is sound, as yours seems to be, you may have luck with the GOA or SAF.

    Have been a Defenders Club member of the SAF for years and am a Life Member of the GOA. At times during the year I will throw more money their way to help support what are active and historically successful efforts in righting legislative wrongs and judicial over-reach.

    Your problem is not unique, and as data-bases are constantly 'improved', I would think more and more people will find themselves caught up in these Catch 22s unless legal clarification is forced upon government. One of these two groups may be interested enough in your case to take it.
    Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.

    Brad Steele
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    norgexxxnorgexxx Member Posts: 88 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks again to Mr P an pickenup. Will try the SAF next. Already suffered rejection by one of the more famous ones, as they considered themselves 'more faith-based' in their choice of cases.....and think they are for the large part. My mistake in making them my first choice. Will plug along trying one at a time. Don't want the confusion that can come from too many players trying to direct the action. Many thanks.
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    fideaufideau Member Posts: 11,893 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This is late, but no. Don't start anything with them, they will be happy to confiscate all your firearms. And I doubt you would get them back even if you win in the end.
    Take the suggested path and contact an organization that can look into this. Get politicians involved if you can.
    A trust is good advice. It's not that expensive.
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    norgexxxnorgexxx Member Posts: 88 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks for all the replies folks, but........
    Bottom line seems to confirm my worst fears about our so-called "Gun Rights" organizations. They appear to be all hat and no cowboy.
    Repeated e-mails and messages left with GOA, the NRA, and 2nd Amendment Foundation have not even generated the courtesy of a response. They could have at least e-mailed a F-U, to let me know they weren't interested in helping, but, nooooo. Nothing.....except more crap in the mail asking for $ for protect 'my gun rights'. It would be funny if it wasn't so typical of so called 'rights' organizations who pay the 'leadership' hundreds of thousands, and furnish them almost unlimited travel and expense accounts....all to protect 'my rights'.....and then they....don't.
    Guess when an obstacle is encountered it's every man for themselves, because they don't really want to help the 'little guy' at all, they just want your money so they can continue with their posh arrangements and fundraising. Sad but true.
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    norgexxxnorgexxx Member Posts: 88 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Joy oh Joy.
    Finally heard from the NRA........after two weeks, I got an automated reply in a standard fromat that, based on it's contents, indicates no living person every actually reads the e-mails the NRA receives. Instead, it is assigned a 'category, based on key-words within your e-mail, once automatically assigned, the designated auto-reply is generated.
    The auto-reply urged me to contact my congressman or senators.....which if someone had actually read the letter, they would have known that was the very first thing I already did, but my DFL traitors are actually happy another person lost their 'gun-rights'.
    I've had upwards of 100 people swear the the NRA or SAF, or GOA would jump at the chance to help, and along with a score or better dropping the old "I have a contact I'll call" line of BS, not a single one has proven to be anything but another BSer. This is why people quit these orgs, after a while you realize they are all just serving as paychecks for self-styled 'gatekeepers of freedoms'. The NRA, GOA, and SAF are all a useless, unfunny joke.
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    Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 66,294 ******
    edited November -1
    Did you try calling any of those organizations?
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
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