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Why must we conceal....?
zamboni68
Member Posts: 48 ✭✭
I am an avid 2nd Amendment Rights supporter, and I find all these discussions about "conceal carry" contradictory to what I see as my 2nd Amendment Rights.
Why must it be concealed? Why am I not allowed to carry my weapon as I see fit? The settlers of the "Wild West" often wore their sidearms in holsters for ease of accessibility. Haven't we again approached the time where our personal safety is once again our concern alone? The police can not protect us all, so we must take up arms and do it ourselves. Wouldn't a holstered weapon deter crime?
I am currently in classes to qualify for my conceal carry permit, since it is now allowed in Ohio. I am disappointed that I must "hide" my weapon...
Why must it be concealed? Why am I not allowed to carry my weapon as I see fit? The settlers of the "Wild West" often wore their sidearms in holsters for ease of accessibility. Haven't we again approached the time where our personal safety is once again our concern alone? The police can not protect us all, so we must take up arms and do it ourselves. Wouldn't a holstered weapon deter crime?
I am currently in classes to qualify for my conceal carry permit, since it is now allowed in Ohio. I am disappointed that I must "hide" my weapon...
Comments
In some states you can carry 'open.' Which means you don't have to conceal the firearm, and you can do it without a permit. However, the politicians and media have presented a one sided argument as to why firearms are, seemingly, inherently bad. Where I live (Louisiana) we can carry openly, however this sometimes leads to conversations with the local gendarmes, and in those cases, you have to explain the law to THEM. I speak from personal experience.
I feel it can also be argued that licensing is a way to keep "the masses" in line, subverting to a degree our 2nd Amendment Rights, yet "allowing" us to keep firearms. Additionally, by licensing an individual it also becomes a form of taxation, in that it raises funds from people who already pay a variety of taxes. I term these "weasel taxes." I also believe it is a way of keeping tabs on people who own firearms, but that just might be my paranoia kicking in.
In the time of the "wild west" as you put it, the general population on the 'frontier' was subject, arguably, to a more hostile environmnet; Indians, rustlers, bandits of all sorts, and wild animals. Firearms were as necessary then as was breathing. We don't face ALL those in our modern society.
You state in your questions that the police cannot protect us all. In fact, the job of the police is NOT to protect us, but rather to apprehend those who do break the law. This is contrary to what is painted on their police cars, "to serve and protect." What a crock!
It has been my contention that my family's well being as far as being protected is up to me. I carry a concealed weapon almost all the time, almost everywhere I go. Want to conduct an experiment? Call the police and call in a pizza delivery...see which one gets to your house first. It might sound a bit goofy, but I know of cases where the pizza arrived LONG before the police arrived.
You ask if "wouldn't a holstered weapon deter crime?" Only if it was in view of whomever wanted to rob/mug you. If it is concealed, the bad guy is not deterred, at least not until you show it to him. At that point they usually decide that being shot for what they might get from you is NOT worth it and burn up their Nikes getting out of sight.
Now it is my turn to ask you a question. If you are armed, legally under the law, what difference does it make whether your firearm is concealed or carried openly?
John
A friend will post your bail. A good friend will be sitting next to you in the cell saying, "man that was fun!"
Now keep in mind, that this is only for certain states, like the one I live in. If you believe in the "federal" constitution, then it only follows, that you would believe in your "state" constitution as well. In our state, the state constitution specifically says that you can not carry "concealed." So we needed a "concealed carry law" to make it legal.
The gene pool needs chlorine.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
John
A friend will post your bail. A good friend will be sitting next to you in the cell saying, "man that was fun!"
Love them Beavers
1. You can already legally open carry in many places, as I understand. Even in California it is legal to open carry in most unincorporated areas, it is the incorporated cities and certain county zones designated by the sheriff that can restrict open carry. But it is also true that even many law enforcement are unaware of their local laws, so that's why you are running a risk when you open carry. You will probably run the risk of getting picked up on a charge of "brandishing a firearm at a peace officer". I still don't think you can open carry a loaded firearm, but I'm not sure on that. Remember, every LEO is trained to ASSUME THAT YOUR GUN IS LOADED, until they can prove otherwise.
2. Yes, the idea of open carry in the Old West is glamourous, but they had problems with this too. Watch the movie Tombstone. The fight at the OK Corral was all started because the Cowboys would not surrender their guns to comply with the city ordinance. As I understand, many towns had to make these laws because of the astronomical murder rates. I know the silver town of Bodie, in eastern Califoria, had 2 to 3 murders PER DAY! That was for a population of about 20,000 in its hey day.
3. If you have a gun on your hip and you are one of "those people" with a short fuse, you are probably more likely to "skin your smoke wagon" and turn your adversaries head "into a canoe" without stopping to think about the situation. I realize that the percentage of "those people" is probably small, but look at how many low-lifes stand up and smack their wife around without thinking about it first. Call it what you want, passion, road rage, mental instability, whatever... but I would hate to accidentally bump into some guy's cart at the grocery store and end up on the business end of his .44. Sure I could carry my own piece, but I would hate to have every trip to the grocery store end up in a quick-draw contest, because someday I would probably lose!
-WW
"...That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state."
-The Debates in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Virginia, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution. June 27, 1788.
I have had this conversation with my retired LEO father who is against the efforts to pass (it did pass) concealed carry in MO and KS (no concealed carry in KS). His position is that there are enough dangerous people out there who have a clean enough record that they would be able to obtain a CCW license. But then they would start carrying their gun (legally) and because of their defective personalitiy they would unlawfully use it against some innocent person. My father said if that happened he didn't (nor do I) want to be the one it was used against. But my position is that 90% of the already lawful citizens can be trusted to remain lawful regardless of the circumstances. And those citizens deserve for society to trust them until they do something unlawful and have to suffer the consequences (prison, lose gun rights, etc). Freedom is not free, and when any freedoms are given to the citizens (gun rights, freedom of speech, freedom to freely move around, freedom to associate with whom ever they want, freedom to store extra gas at home or strong medications/chemicals, etc) some people are going to use those freedoms to do bad things and some innocent people will suffer. But overall society will gain because the lawful citizens will not be treated like potential criminals but will have the freedoms they deserve.
JMHO
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
John
A friend will post your bail. A good friend will be sitting next to you in the cell saying, "man that was fun!"
Just for the record, my stance is CCW for anyone who can take a class and pass a test and background (I especially like the Federal CCW idea), and open carry for any community that wants to allow it. I have no problem letting the voters decide if they want to allow open carry in their city/county.
-WW
"...That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state."
-The Debates in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Virginia, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution. June 27, 1788.
You pose a great question. One for which there are probably a multitude of answers. I will try and answer them as I see it.
Edited for content
Now it is my turn to ask you a question. If you are armed, legally under the law, what difference does it make whether your firearm is concealed or carried openly?
John
Thank you for your compliment.
Let me clarify something--I WANT TO CARRY. The question I posed is why must I "hide" my weapon verus open carry (according to MY 2nd Amendment Rights)?? I do not oppose anyone pursuing licensure to carry.
What I question are the reasons behind conceal carry versus open carry. If I were a LEO on patrol, I'd find it more reassuring to have a citizen carry openly, rather than concealed--a weapon in view is detected earlier than concealed. Second, the visual presence of a holstered weapon IS a deterrant to crime. As said, the police are there to pursue the criminals after a crime has occured, and statistically this is successful less than 50% of the time.
I am in training now to apply for my CCW permit. I will carry daily. I have my Beretta 9mm at my bedside...loaded.
I'm interested in more opinions. Sorry I wasn't able to respond sooner--I was called away for work sooner than I expected, and just returned days ago.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/metro/20040719-102254-3826r.htm
Zamboni, I appreciate your sentiments. Like you, I often wonder how we got to where we are today. Sometimes we get so caught up in talking about the process of getting a CCW, or talking about where we can't conceal-carry, that we overlook the simple question of why do we need to conceal our firearms at all?
There must have been some point in the past (probably about 150 years ago) when a man/woman could carry a sidearm openly or concealed no matter where they went. Then someplace somewhere decided that they wanted to restrict people from carrying firearms in their community. This obviously caught on and now we have what we have today, states banning conceal-carry and even open carry (according to the above article, about 20+ states have open-carry laws).
The irony of the above article is that it approaches the issue as a novel idea. As if nobody ever thought to allow citizens to openly carry their firearms. I don't know if this is the result of political correctness, liberal brainwashing, or what. When did we reach the point in our society where a man walking down the street with a pistol on his hip became an exceptional, and perceived as dangerous, situation? When did people begin to automatically assume that this was against the law? Would this have received the same reaction in 1900 as in 2004? How about 1920? 1940? 1960?
This issue brings up a lot of questions in my mind about gun rights in general. I grew up in a suburban home with no access to firearms at all. Before I educated myself about guns, if I saw a man walking around the city with a gun on his belt I would have probably called the cops too, just out of my own ignorance. I'm not sure where that mentality came from, probably a combination of the Media and the education system telling me that guns were BAD! And apparently the cops don't even know the law! In the above article they confiscated guns off of two people in Starbucks that they were LEGALLY open-carrying. The cop returned the guns to them the next day!
That is what is really scary to me. We have had an entire shift in the perception of firearms in our society over the past century. This shift in perception has not been pushed by gun laws, the gun laws have been pushed by this new perception. Where is this perception coming from? The Media? Liberals? Who??? Are firearms just a scapegoat for the inadequacies of our Criminal Justice system? Are they an easy target with which politicians divert our attention so they can hide their own failures?
Hmmm... I feel like I have painted myself into a corner.
-wW
"...That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state."
-The Debates in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Virginia, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution. June 27, 1788.
That segways into my basic question--AM I SAFER CARRYING CONCELAED OR CARRYING OPEN? In my opinion, if I were to carry a openly holstered weapon, I would be safer since the visual presence of my "sidearm" would be enough to deter crime against me. If I were to carry conceal, the chance to defend myself exists, but the deterrant does not.
Anyway, I will get my CCW license and be greatful that Ohio has recognized my 2nd Amendment Rights. By the look of things this election, more civil liberties are being restricted...so I'll consider myself lucky, so far.
Anyone else have an opinion?
I'd rather carry concealed, and if in a situation, being able to make my own choice whether or not to fight back, than the bad guys knowing I'm carrying, and shoot before I have any chance at all.
"The Greatest Battle Implement Ever Devised!"
-- Gen. George S. Patton
referring to the M1 Garand
I would say you are safer from the criminals, but probably not as safe from the cops. All it takes is one cop that doesn't know the law (like in the article) and is a little to quick on the trigger. If you carry concealed then you are probably no more or less safer than anyone else, but the cops will probably harass you a whole lot less.
One other possible downside of open-carry is that you advertise your merchandise to the criminals, therefore they know what they can steal from you (or at least try to steal). Anybody know if pickpockets target guns? I suppose if they can steal your wallet out of your pocket then they could probably steal a gun out of a holster. Just a thought.
-WW
-WW
"...That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state."
-The Debates in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Virginia, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution. June 27, 1788.
Once again, this is all a theoretical deabte since Ohio is a license CCW state, and no "open" carry allowed.
Thanks for the wonderful discussion...
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Join NRA, the best and easiest way to support the 2nd amendment
Franko
I've never looked into the right to carry open in Ohio, although I will.
...edited for content...
Well, any updates??
Kinda makes you think.
PJ
If nobody seen you do it, how could you have done it. NRA Endowment Member, AF&AM
Open carry is only ever a good idea if many people do it. Why? Because if one person in a large group does so, they become the man that gets taken out first. Is that what you want? (I didn't think so!!). When many people open carry, there is almost no way anyone would be stupid enough to risk assaulting one person, because they would get gunned down quickly by the rest. But usually, not that many people are willing to carry openly (especially when the cops act like the Gestapo).
I'm with you, though. The 2nd Amendment is about carrying a gun however you want for any morally justifiable reason. The 4th Amendment asserts the right to privacy, and that includes guns (which is why registration of ANY gun is unconstitutional) and as far as I'm concerned, includes bearing any arms you wish, however you wish.
Rights are like muscles.... use them, or lose them.
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Remember how many seats were lost after AWB passage? Vae victis!
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
Luke 22:36.
Open carry is only ever a good idea if many people do it.
...EDITED...
Rights are like muscles.... use them, or lose them.
So who's going to be the brave first, the one who shows others gun ownership isn't something to be ashamed of, to hide? If we hide it because we're afraid, we tell others to be afraid & hide.
I understnad the practicality of concealed weapon carry, but I also see advantages of open carry.
Or go on ahead and carry openly, but beware... the Gestapo and criminals are looking for nuts like you (their interpretation.. not mine). I don't want to steer you wrong, but in open carrying (regardless of the philosophical arguments, because as far as I'm concerned, you do have every right to carry in any manner you choose), you also become a target, and I hate to see gun owners gunned down because the predator had the jump on them... that's all I'm saying.
Here's another point of view from Claire Wolfe's book "101 things to do 'til the Revolution". Don't advertise. (This relates to cars) You want to blend in. Granted, you have every right to drive whatever you choose, but if your choice of vehicles basically say, "Here I am!", don't be surprised when the cops and other miscreats say, "There you are!".
Although this was meant for cars, could it apply to other things?
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Remember how many seats were lost after AWB passage? Vae victis!
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
Luke 22:36.
I think once I'm fully licensed, I'll carry a copy of the Ohio Revised Code on lawful conceal carry to avoid undue harassment from LEO's.
and jump thru a multitude of other hoops merely to enjoy a firearm ?
Because those in power abuse their authority,ignore the Constitution,and trample rights and freedoms...
And we the people are too weak,stupid and afraid to insist on our Constitutional RIGHTS..given by God..withdrawn by popular apathy.
I will obtain my license any carry proudly! I have heard a lot of "concerned" comments from others, considering that I am a Family Physician...they don't think it's "right" or "proper" that I carry--then I remind them of a physician who was brutally murdered by a disgruntaled patient less than 100 miles away; the school teacher who was shot to death at the gas station by a teenage robber; the grandmother who was brutally murdered in a Kroger's parking lot...and they stop interjecting.
Any other thoughts on this...?
Government decided,back about 1934,that they felt threatened with firarms in the hands of common citizens.Since that time,one step at a time,they have instituted,federal and state,about 22,000 gun laws.
We the people have allowed this usurpation of our rights..offering only token resistance.
At this point in time..any but the weakest defense..I.E.,"Call your Congressman "..will be met with overwhelming force from those in power..they are jealous of their power,after all...
Once again...Governments do not posess " Rights"..they control jack booted thugs,willing to kill you for infractions of their 'laws..'...laws that by NO STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION are Constitutional..no matter HOW corrupt judges try to make them so...
The (un)ethics of gun kontrol is all about taking responsibility away from The People, and trying to force a standing army (i.e. the police and the other Alphabet soup organizations) to uphold life and liberty, which is in direct contradiction of the US Constitution, and in which too many of us have conceded to the (un)fact that this is not a Republic, but a democracy (the meanieized mongrel formation between an autocracy and social anarchy), diametrically opposing elements of society coming together in a form of utilitarianism (greatest good for the greatest number of people)
I prefer the tactical concept of concealed carry simply because there are too many cowards out there who fear guns, pathetic wretches for whom I hold nothing but contempt for, and until that climate changes (and it will), I do not want nor need police on my tail for inducing a panic, nor do I want to target myself to a murderous criminal so that I may be shot without warning, in his/her cowardly attempt to make the climate easier to commit evil in. I only recommend the same to others simply because, even though murder and rape are malum in se (evil in and of itself), let the antigunners be the targets... let them learn the hard way that they are wrong. I find all of the violent crimes in this world to be horrible, but at the same time, I have a lot of trouble feeling sympathy for those who decided not to look out for themselves, and didn't take precautions.
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Remember how many seats were lost after AWB passage? Vae victis!
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
Luke 22:36.
Why should ANY citizens trust a government who does not trust the citizens? Really, why?
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
Fear the government that fears weapons in the hands of citizens...
"When government fears the citizens, the citizens have freedom. When the citizens fear the government, the citizens have tyranny."
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
Citizens fear the BATF,ATF,IRS,FBI,JUDGES and the list goes on and on...sounds like...........?
When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny."
- Thomas Jefferson
Thanks for making me go look it up..a bit of disipline I ought to take more often...
It's not just the anonymous people who fear us, it's our "friends". At this moment I'm not sure what to do about this latest development. I am finding this issue is polarizing my friends and family.
More on this later...
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
Wasn't really trying to 'correct' you as much as being sure we didn't miss anything of value from the 'ancients'...you had the thought down splendly..
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
Gunphreak: quote:I prefer the tactical concept of concealed carry simply because there are too many cowards out there who fear guns, pathetic wretches for whom I hold nothing but contempt for
Zamboni 68: quote:I just learned through a friend-of-a-friend that one of my longest, dearest friends hasn't called or visited because he heard I was pursuing a concealed carry permit. Apparently, his sentiment was "I won't take my kids/family to a house that's got a loaded weapon"...despite the fact I've had a gun in the house for the last decade the he's been visiting my house.
This is caused by IGNORANCE, for which the only cure is ENLIGHTENMENT.
Gunphreak: quote:let the antigunners be the targets... let them learn the hard way that they are wrong. I find all of the violent crimes in this world to be horrible, but at the same time, I have a lot of trouble feeling sympathy for those who decided not to look out for themselves, and didn't take precautions.
Here is a quote from my monologue on this forum about the crumbling state of California: quote:This same mentality is why liberals cannot fight terrorists. They are too concerned with embracing the enemy that would rather cut their throat. Michael Savage is right, liberalism is a mental disorder. Liberals have lost all sense of self-preservation. They truly believe that they are leading society to a "greater good" that they would gladly trade their life for. What they don't see is that this will only allow the unenlightened and uncivilized masses of the world to more easily take over our society. It is the ultimate "Helsinki Syndrome". Every liberal loves to perceive themself as a victim and a martyr, and they try to do whatever they can to allow themselves to be victimized so that they can perpetuate their victimization and self-martyrdom.
Just my $0.02.
-WW
"...That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state."
-The Debates in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Virginia, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution. June 27, 1788.
But what is truly interesting about this to me is that in the same "rude awaking" scene I just mentioned, the realistic, conservative people I work will continue as they are and have been. Reason being that the conservative people understand and see the real world much, much more clearly than the liberals.
To sum up, the liberals see the world as they WANT it to be. The conservatives see the world AS IT IS.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"