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Private property vs. Rights...

HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
Thinking about self defense..and your "Home is your castle"....

For many years,I have felt that a private individual has the absolute authority to 'ban' others from 'carrying' on private property..(theirs)...now I wonder..?

One then turns over to "Joe"..(private property owner)..the duty and necessity to protect your life and person...

Now,,there are indeed individuals that I would trust with my life..count 'em on the fingers of one hand..(with a few fingers left over) [:0]..but turning that job over to just anybody strikes me as ludicrous...

Perhaps I have been wrong about this..for years.Given that is INDEED your right to demand a visitor be unarmed..
Perhaps it would then be best to only associate with people that view one as an adult..and not be alarmed by an armed visitor...?

What think you, oh wise guru's of GB land ?

Comments

  • pickenuppickenup Member Posts: 22,846 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    First, if you do not tell them you are carrying, how would they know? Do people stop you at their door and ask you if you have a gun?

    Second, it is my responsibility, and mine alone, to protect my family and myself.

    Third, if it came up, I agree with you, associate with only those you would trust with that responsibility. (which is a very short list......as a matter of fact, I can not think of anyone)

    The gene pool needs chlorine.
  • riverriver Member Posts: 636 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
  • James R. K.James R. K. Member Posts: 73 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I still believe a person has the right to not allow me to be armed on their property. Some places of business post their property "GUN FREE ZONE" or "NO GUNS ALLOWED", etc. I just find another place to do business.

    [:D] Every time I shoot I hit something [:D] Leo Carrillo as "Pancho" in The Cisco Kid TV Series [:)]
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    James R. K. Posted - 10/09/2004 : 11:49:57 PM
    quote:
    I still believe a person has the right to not allow me to be armed on their property

    Would you agree then that were something to transpire..and I as a visitor had no means to defend myself..that in the event of my death..you would take care of my wife and 9 children ? Under common law,in the old days,causing harm was punished..and depriving me of the means of self defense is a harm...?
  • James R. K.James R. K. Member Posts: 73 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Highball
    James R. K. Posted - 10/09/2004 : 11:49:57 PM
    quote:
    I still believe a person has the right to not allow me to be armed on their property

    Would you agree then that were something to transpire..and I as a visitor had no means to defend myself..that in the event of my death..you would take care of my wife and 9 children ? Under common law,in the old days,causing harm was punished..and depriving me of the means of self defense is a harm...?

    No. I'm just saying if I can't take my gun, I don't go. I wouldn't get hurt there from being unarmed, because I wouldn't be there. Some of my wife's relatives don't like me being armed, but they tolerate it, bacause they don't want to forget what she looks like.

    [:D] Every time I shoot I hit something [:D] Leo Carrillo as "Pancho" in The Cisco Kid TV Series [:)]
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    quote:No. I'm just saying if I can't take my gun, I don't go

    Naturally. Decent folks don't like to be treated as criminals.

    I agree fully with this..but at times I think it may be unavoidable..one HAS to be in a hostile environment..(Anti-Gun establishment..)..it sort of begs the question..to merely proclaim.."Don't show your weapon.."...

    Perhaps in a free land..there would be no penalities for carrying..only abusing ? In that method..the worst that could happen is being invited to leave...
  • James R. K.James R. K. Member Posts: 73 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    In my openion, and it's just my openion, not the law, I see no reason why I need to get permission from the Clerk of Court to carry a concealed handgun. The Constitution doesn't say I have the right to keep and bear arms if the Clerk of Court says it OK. But, sometimes we have to go along with things we know ain't right to avoid the hassel.

    [:D] Every time I shoot I hit something [:D] Leo Carrillo as "Pancho" in The Cisco Kid TV Series [:)]
  • pickenuppickenup Member Posts: 22,846 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    James,
    In general, I agree with your statement. I do not know about your state constitution (do you?) but where I am, the "state" constitution specifically says that we can not carry concealed. (as seen below) That is why we had to pass a CCW law here and get "permission" to carry concealed. I believe in the Federal constitution, so it only follows that I must also believe in the individual state constitutions. Not that I agree, but I was not around to vote on it back then. [;)] [:D]

    quote
    Section 13. Right to bear arms. The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons.
    end quote


    Highball,
    In Alaska (which has a Vermont style CCW law) this is part of the law they passed in 2003. This comes from the part about where you can NOT carry, unless.....

    Quote
    Within another person's residence, unless the person carrying the firearm has first obtained the express permission of an adult residing there to bring the firearm into the residence.....
    End quote

    So by law, you can not carry, into their house, unless you ask permission first. Glad we do not have to do that here.



    The gene pool needs chlorine.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Let me clarify a bit.

    I really wanted to discuss the moral/rights aspect.. ..not the patchwork 'laws' put in place by tiny little men with tiny little minds...

    Starting from scratch,with the present framework crumbled into the dust of history,blessfully.

    The best way to visulize it..a group of people transported to another planet,starting a brave new world. Tossing ideas around about what really 'should be'..helps one visulize where we really are...
  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Originally posted by James R. K. :

    quote:I still believe a person has the right to not allow me to be armed on their property.

    Personally, I do not believe anyone has a right to post a sign or declare a gun-free zone on property that functions as a business that extends an invitation to the general public.

    On the other hand, a person's house, or a place a work that has employees, and does not extend an invitation to the general public, such as a factory, has that right, but no right comes without at least one corresponding responsibility, and in this instance, should a person willfully disarm anyone on their property and they are assaulted by another and/or killed, the property owner has now become responsible for that man's/woman's death.

    But I do not patronize those businesses, anyway.

    Death to Tyrants!!!
    Lev 26:14-39

    Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.

    Luke 22:36.
    "Followers of Christ, be armed."
  • James R. K.James R. K. Member Posts: 73 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by pickenup
    James,
    In general, I agree with your statement. I do not know about your state constitution (do you?) but where I am, the "state" constitution specifically says that we can not carry concealed. (as seen below) That is why we had to pass a CCW law here and get "permission" to carry concealed. I believe in the Federal constitution, so it only follows that I must also believe in the individual state constitutions. Not that I agree, but I was not around to vote on it back then. [;)] [:D]

    quote
    Section 13. Right to bear arms. The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons.
    end quote

    As a matter of fact, I do read the United States and Virginia Constitutions from time to time. Actually Virginia is one of the more gun toater friendly states (we are a commonwealth). More people should read the U. S. Constitution. It's really not that long a document.

    The first ten amendments to the U. S. Constitution, the Bill of Rights, don't "grant" rights to the citizens of the United States, they simply recognize that those rights exist. If those rights are infringed or denied, doesn't change the fact that you have those rights.

    An argument could be made that if your State Constitution is in conflict with the Bill of Rights, your State Constitution is invalid. But, I'm not the man to make that argument.

    Some folks, if they are convinced a law is not valid, will disobey the law and fight it out in court. I'm not one of those people. Being right doesn't mean you'll win. I want to spend my remaining years on this side of the bars, so once every five years, I go to the Courthouse and give them $50.00. However, any right which I have to get permission to exercise isn't a right in the first place.

    [:D] Every time I shoot I hit something [:D] Leo Carrillo as "Pancho" in The Cisco Kid TV Series [:)]
  • James R. K.James R. K. Member Posts: 73 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by gunphreak
    Originally posted by James R. K. :

    quote:I still believe a person has the right to not allow me to be armed on their property.

    Personally, I do not believe anyone has a right to post a sign or declare a gun-free zone on property that functions as a business that extends an invitation to the general public.

    On the other hand, a person's house, or a place a work that has employees, and does not extend an invitation to the general public, such as a factory, has that right, but no right comes without at least one corresponding responsibility, and in this instance, should a person willfully disarm anyone on their property and they are assaulted by another and/or killed, the property owner has now become responsible for that man's/woman's death.

    But I do not patronize those businesses, anyway.

    Death to Tyrants!!!
    Lev 26:14-39

    Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.

    Luke 22:36.
    "Followers of Christ, be armed."


    I'd like to agree with you, but I just can't do it. If someone owns, rents, or otherwise has claim enough to property to call it his property, he should have the right to set the rules on that property. Otherwise, it ain't his property.

    The owner of a shop should have the right to keep me out just because I'm too good looking.

    [:D] Every time I shoot I hit something [:D] Leo Carrillo as "Pancho" in The Cisco Kid TV Series [:)]
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Interesting indeed.

    I don't believe my neighbor has the 'right' to tell me I must wear a Blue Blazer when I visit..why should he tell me not to be armed..? Simply because I 'might' do something stupid with a gun....?

    I reckon the simpilist thing to do is stay away from such suspicious folks..
  • James R. K.James R. K. Member Posts: 73 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think that is something like what I said.

    [:D] Every time I shoot I hit something [:D] Leo Carrillo as "Pancho" in The Cisco Kid TV Series [:)]
  • CountryGunsmithCountryGunsmith Member Posts: 617 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Highball, he has the right to tell you not to come over, or to tell you to leave.



    Scrappy Doo sleeps with the fishes.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    No problem there at all.

    From my side..I cannot imagine associating with an idividual so paranoid that the pocession of a pistol under my left arm causes such heartburn.The idea of visiting such does not even enter the picture...I try to associate with adults,myself.
  • 2gun2gun Member Posts: 318 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    youre all looking at this wrongly.

    a mans home is his castle. period. if he tells you not to do something in his home you have a choice, comply or leave.so it the same with a concealed weapon, if you are told not to carry there and you go there unarmed and something happens to you, it was your choice and you bear the consequences as you could have stayed home. now if you go armed and against the wishes of your host you are a lousy guest and shouldnt have come.

    some people here have put it pretty plainly. they wont go anywhere that doesnt allow them to defend themselves be it another state or a grocery store do the same with someone that tells you you cant have a weapon on their premises in the end its your choice not his obligation

    no end to the ban here in ny.wish we could our congresscritters too.
  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I get what you're saying, 2gun, but the bottom line is that all rights come with responsibilities.

    Purposefully disarm someone, for whatever your reason, if anything happens to him that being armed may have stop, this becomes the property owner's problem. HE becomes liable.

    A man's home is his castle... no doubt. I fully agree and I would decline an invitation to visit his home for that reason. Businesses that extend an invitation to the general public, however, have no right to infringe on someone else's rights to self defense, unless, of course, he/she is willing to suffer the consequences of his decision.

    Should it really matter that someone is carrying a gun if he has it to defend himself? We all know a robber won't care about this sign, so let's give him a reason to care.

    Death to Tyrants!!!
    Lev 26:14-39

    Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.

    Luke 22:36.
    "Followers of Christ, be armed."
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