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Police not obligated to protect individuals

kaliforniankalifornian Member Posts: 475 ✭✭✭
I was doing some research for the anti-gun control section of my web site. Since I've always maintained that self defense is the duty and responsibility of the individual, I wasn't really surprised to discover numerous court cases in which it was ruled that the police have no obligation to protect specific individuals, nor to respond to calls for help.

I'm in no way implying that the typical police officer doesn't care and wouldn't normally try to help a person in need, but it is disturbing in this era of gun control and dwindling self defense rights, that people are not entitled to police protection. I am under the impression that the average person who is in favor gun control lives under the mistaken belief that people who call for help can and must be rescued by the police. If they realized that this is not the case, perhaps they would feel differently about forfeiting their ability to defend themselves.

For those who care, the article I wrote based on this research, along with various supporting links can be found at the link below: http://www.lestdarknessfall.com/Pages/gun_rights.htm#POLICEHAVENODUTYTOPROTECT



http://lestdarknessfall.com
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Comments

  • James R. K.James R. K. Member Posts: 73 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    You done good.

    Even if the Sheriff did have an obligation to protect me and mine, he just couldn't do it. I live about 20 miles from the closest deputy patrol. It's up to the dog and Remington.

    [:D] Every time I shoot I hit something [:D] Leo Carrillo as "Pancho" in The Cisco Kid TV Series [:)]
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    [:D]

    What a wonderful country,America...Information is still available,for those willing to do the work...

    Everybody always thinks that I am bitter,cynical,and a fanatic..but knowing about things like this..and witnessing the Socialists drive to control guns..one can add 1+1 and get 2...there are several court cases,affirming that police have no responsibility to indididuals...

    Really, this fact alone OUGHT to wake up citizens..but it means nothing to most folks...
  • pickenuppickenup Member Posts: 22,846 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Highball,
    Not EVERYBODY thinks you are bitter, cynical, or a fanatic.
    Some of us know you are just fed up with the BS,
    and would rather get it on, and get it over, win or loose.
    Preferably win. [;)]

    kalifornian,
    I have posted this same information several times.
    As well as brought it up in casual conversations.
    Many do not believe it, and/or do not understand the implications.
    Or they just don't care. Not sure which.

    The gene pool needs chlorine.
  • kaliforniankalifornian Member Posts: 475 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think people don't really believe it. There's a disconnect between the emotional buy in of an idea and an intellectual grasping of it. People read posts like what you presumably did in the past or what I put on my web site and aren't changed by it. Court cases, statistics, and don't seem like they effect your every day life until you yourself become one of the statistics. Much like a bad parent who doesn't want to see the signs of drug use in their child, a lot folks just like to think someone else is looking out for them so that they don't have to worry about things. When someone they care about is hurt and unable to protect themselves (or when the kid is in a drug induced coma on the floor if you like the analogy), suddenly they realize they have issues to deal with.

    This forum and now my recent web site activity has gotten me more interested in trying to change people's minds and wake them up. Though it may not amount to much, I'm going to take a look around the various publications out there and see if anyone will accept an article or editorial from me.

    Most American households own a firearm, be it for self defense, hunting or just a hand-me-down from a parent. (I think the number is about 60%). I also suspect that when push comes to shove, the average person will defend themselves, though lack of preparation may lead to a "too little, too late" scenario. Nevertheless, I think these two things indicate that people would come around to our way of thinking if they had more exposure to intelligent argument backed up by real world facts and down to earth examples.

    Let's hope so! [:D]


    http://lestdarknessfall.com
  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well, that's part of it.

    People have been dumbed down, and the moment they learn this lesson, it is already too late, and the ones who should speak the loudest are already dead.

    Gun kontrol advocates are cowards, plain and simple. They hope to impose their cowardly will on non-cowards, hoping that the law-abiding comply, and then hoping all people are law-abiding. Then, problem solved....

    ...in an ideal world, which we do not live in. Here, if you don't care enough about your life to defend it, it truly is worth nothing.

    Death to Tyrants!!!
    Lev 26:14-39

    Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.

    Luke 22:36.
    "Followers of Christ, be armed."
  • Salvage33Salvage33 Member Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Somehow I had missed this topic, but feel the need to weigh in with my four cents worth. Indeed, as written, the police are under no obligation to protect and individual. The sole purpose of the police is to apprehend criminals and others who have broken the/a law. At that point, it is the duty of the district attorney, or other local authority, to prosecute the violator, the court overseeing the legality of the proceedings.

    The motto "to serve and protect" you see on a lot of police cars is nothing more than that, a motto. Though I am certain that in various jurisdictions, police do act as much and often as they can to do just that.

    However, if someone is breaking into your house and you dial 911, the statistics and odds both can be assumed that the police, upon arrival, will have to take the action of trying to apprehend whoever was breaking in. And in some cases, it will be a murder investigation. That is sad to say, but it is true.

    Personally, I don't feel that it is the job of the police/sheriff to protect me. It is MY obligation to me and my family to look out for my own well being, and sometimes this causes a bit of a domestic problem as my wife is somewhat afraid of guns, but she's a damned good shot when she does go with me.

    One must always be prepared for the worst; know where you are, know the surroundings, keep car doors locked, be vigilant. And be armed.

    I have been the target of an attempted car jacking...saw them coming and was more than ready as they approached. When the saw the working end of a 1911 they decided that discretion was definitely the better part of valor and rapidly departed the area. I'm glad I didn't have to shoot one or both of them, but was totally prepared to do so, since one had a knife, the other had a piece of pipe, and I felt that my well being was going to be endangered.

    Fortunately, where I live, we have a STATE law that says if you are being carjacked, you can shoot the sucker as long as you feel you are in danger or fear for your life/well being. It is nothing more than an extension of the right to self defense, but was very politically expedient for several pro-gun politicians, and for the general population. Since that law was passed and enacted, car jackings have decreased dramatically. For the record, the state is Louisiana.

    Remain vigilant, remain ready.

    John


    The original point and click interface was made by Smith & Wesson
  • Salvage33Salvage33 Member Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Badwrench..welcome to the forum. I'm old, drive an Accord, have grey hair and a beard...the cops all know me and just pull me over to have a chat. Most of them are good guys with a tough job, but the ones around here will do everything they can for you.

    We need a lot more like them in other places.

    John


    The original point and click interface was made by Smith & Wesson
  • Ol Grey GhostOl Grey Ghost Member Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Greetings:

    If I may put in my two cents worth on this topic. Yes the SC of the U.S. has determined that the Police are under no obligation to protect any one individual but the public at large but this is mostly a protection against liability which means you can't sue the Police because they took too long to get to your crisis (except if you are the scumbag they have had to arrest to stop your violent rampage, then they have to practically jump in the path of a bullet to protect your life). Firefighters have similar protection as their duty is (not their actual choice; most firefighters became so to save lives) under court decisions to stop the fire at your house from spreading to your neighbor's homes. Now this has some logic to it because these public servants can't physically be everywhere or by the time they get to your burning house or other emergency, everything has already reached a point of no return.

    That being said, what is the logic of disarming the people who will be on the scene first because they are the victims at the scene (Like Ron White says, "How far will this plane get with only one engine?...All the way to the scene of the crash which is kind of convenient 'cause that's where we're headed. I bet we beat the paramedics by half an hour.") One I keep hearing from politicians and Police Chiefs, which are pretty well the same, "It will make it safer for the police on the streets." Well, when I worked as a cop I carried a gun in a holster on my belt and one in my boot and another sharp knife hidden away and I was trained in the mechanics of arrest and defensive tactics so I felt pretty safe where ever I went. So why shouldn't law-abiding (at the time and in the future) citizens have the same so they can keep things safe till the police get there?

    Another position is that we have 911 (the emergency phone line) and police, why have a gun since you might (key word) hurt somebody with it? "Don't pull a gun, dial 911!" But so far I haven't seen any proof of instantaneous transport for these life-savers to get to the scene.

    We would have to have one public safety officer for every household in this country to be completely safe. Who would want to pay that tax bill? Is there possibly a cheaper alternative? Wait a minute...I remember something from my Constitutional Law classes about...what was it...something about a Militia. That's it, and something about the common people keeping and bearing arms to protect themselves, their homes and families, their communities, and their States from domestic criminals, foreign invaders,and tyrants. That's it, let's assign one Militia member to protect every household in America and to keep it really cheap, let's have them provide their own weapons and ammunition. That would be the cheapest way to keep America safe.

    But that's just my opinion. Y'all seem like smart folks, think about it for awhile.

    Peter W. Wickham, Jr.
    AKA The Ol' Grey Ghost
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    kalifornian: my visit to your website and reading your article was AWESOME! Man, we need people like you out there. I added it to my favorite places and will pass it around as much as possible. Please never quit what you are doing. You are probably advancing/protecting gun rights just by what you are doing more than I have done in 40 years of trying.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
  • Ol Grey GhostOl Grey Ghost Member Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Greetings Kalifornian:

    I wrote my post and then after reading tr fox's comments on your articles I read the one you wanted everyone to see. It is interesting how closely our writings matched on some points so I had to say I did not plagiarize your work. We seem to be traveling down the same road and your car is ahead of mine but we are just going the same way and I am not stalking you "figuratively" speaking. I been in this war against gun control for nearly thirty years and I am glad to see there are others out there using this fine tool of the Internet. Keep up the good work and if you need any help, just call (or should I say E-mail) me.

    Fight the good fight and don't give up as we just might win this thing,

    Peter W. Wickham, Jr.
    AKA The Ol' Grey Ghost
  • Salvage33Salvage33 Member Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ghost..welcome...and some sound thoughts and words from you.

    Years ago when all the crap was starting about gun control and taking away our second amendment rights, I asked one of our local politicians who was stridently campaigning to restrict our ability to own/use firearms if he was prepared to have a police officer follow me around 24 hours a day, every day, for the rest of my life. He said he thought that was an absurd question. I told him that it was not absurd, that if HE wanted me to be safe, not own a firearm, he damned well better be prepared to have a body guard for me, and everyone else. He harrumphed and grumped and avoided the issue from then on, but my point was made. Granted it was on the local level, but if enough of us sent letters to our congressmen and senators stating that they are inducing a fiduciary responsibility for our personal safety by disarming us, then they had damn sure better rethink their positions.

    Sorry to get so wound up, but that's how I feel.

    John


    The original point and click interface was made by Smith & Wesson
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    John, I have long thought that we should abandon all but a few ways of fighting the anti-gun crowd. One of the ways we should retain is just what you did with that local politician; spotlight the flaws in his logic and his hypocriscy and wave it in his face until he backs down. We should be able to find a way to do this on a national basis since, just for an example, I would wager money that the viciously anti-gun Kennedy "compound" has a fully stocked armory.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
  • Ol Grey GhostOl Grey Ghost Member Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Greetings Salvage33:

    And thank you for the welcome. I saw one flaw though in your argument and I'm not here to start another but let's see if we can work through this one so we have the same position. You say the government is encurring a fiduciary responsibilty to protect us if they disarm us but the topic is that the agents of government (government does not exist outside the abstract concept in the human brain) cannot be held responsible for your protection and the just about the only people who benefit from disarming the public is usually the politicians who feel safer with their bulletproof limousines and small army of bodyguards i.e. the Kennedy's.

    But we CHL holders here in Texas like to have fun sometimes with private institutions that ban firearms on their property. It's their property and it's their right, but we still have fun. First, there are places that even a CHL holder is specifically prohibited by law to carry a firearm, one most recently popping up for my family being hospitals. My concealed handgun is a "no go" but technically I could carry a concealed assault rifle or shotgun. You can request written authorization from the director of the institution (or from the principal of a school, for that matter) and the answer is usually a "over my dead body" kind of response. You then point out that since you made the request and were denied then they are responsible for anything that may happen to you and your family that you could have prevented if you had your sidearm with you that you are obviously qualified to use. I didn't know that many veins could pop out on the human head.

    Another game for small shops is for a family member to go inside a store that has a sign banning firearms on their property. That persons picks out something expensive they want and they say they have to check with me out in the car. I go to the door and ask them to bring the item to the door so I can see it (now be really prepared to buy the item because someone in the family wants or needs it to be fair about this but it is something you can buy somewhere else). Very expensive items the proprietor will balk at my request and say come on in. I tell them they have to take the sign down because it is illegal for me to enter even if they say it's okay and the sign is left up. I've heard, "That's for the safety of our customers, sir." Well, this customer feels safer with his sidearm with him and we'll just have to shop somewhere else.

    At larger stores, if you really want or must shop there, secure your sidearm and spare magazines if you carry any in your vehicle and then walk in with your empty holster exposed (so far I don't know of any law banning someone from wearing a holster) and I'm willing to bet you will be questioned by a member of management. As with the hospital, you explain that you are qualified and licensed to carry a protective sidearm and the empty holster shows that you are complying with their wishes but you will hold them responsible if something happens that you could have prevented if carrying your sidearm.

    Now I believe first and foremost in the people's right to do and decide what is best for their private property but they do not have blanket immunity like government agents do. If they see that may be losing customers because of policies they decided upon (I believe everybody is slightly familiar with the boycott on "PayPal' and "E-bay" for their anti-gun positions) then they may rethink their policies and when they rethink how they do business they may rethink how they vote. A subtle, legal way to get the people to change their way of thinking and when the people change their way of thinking, then politicians have to adapt or become "extinct."

    Just a thought,

    Peter W. Wickham, Jr.
    AKA The Ol' Grey Ghost

    "The government that fears arms in the hands of the people should also fear the rope!"
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    We should nudge the gun rights movement more towards such "subtle" thinking.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
  • JamesRKJamesRK Member Posts: 25,672 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hate to show my ignorance, but I didn't know about the boycott of eBay. I just bought a set of S&W grips through eBay. I don't think the guy who sold them to me knew about it either. Now I know. I wonder how many other folks don't know.
    The road to hell is paved with COMPROMISE.
  • Salvage33Salvage33 Member Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ole Gray Ghost..

    Been through this very thing where I work. Gun ban signs posted, and our work place is not in what most would consider a "high rent district." Company policy also forbids carrying/possession of firearms on company property. Had a conversation with the boss about it one day, saying that the signs that were posted were an open invitation to 'bad guys'. He laughed, said I was being paranoid. I smiled and went on about my work. A few weeks later, I told him that I had done some thinking, and since the company policy was what it was, that their policy had forced me to write a letter, to be opened upon my death, and if I was killed by someone who violated the law, on company property, during working hours, that my estate was to hold them responsible for my death. I also told him that their policy established a fiduciary responsibility to protect me and my fellow employees, and by restricting/eliminating MY ability to protect/defend myself, that they were going to be held responsible.

    Two weeks later, after the corporate legal eagles got through with their "examination of the situation" they decided that the signs could come down. I was asked if that made me feel better. My reply was "just a little" but since policy is to keep me (a legal CCW holder) from carrying concealed, that the letter was still in the safety deposit box, and the same results would occur, ie., a wrongful death lawsuit would be filed.

    At least I got part of the problem rectified.

    John


    The original point and click interface was made by Smith & Wesson
  • Ol Grey GhostOl Grey Ghost Member Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    John:

    Great work! No lawsuits (yet), no sit-in's, or strikes or walking off the job but you got them to thinking and they "figured it out by themselves" (we know who really figured it out, but people like this feel better about themselves when they can make it look like they did). Just keep smiling, it makes people wonder what you've been up to.

    Your story about the location of your workplace kind of reminds me of someone's great idea once to pass out to people who were leaning towards gun-control signs that said, "GUN FREE HOME" (kind of like "SMOKE-FREE HOME" on E-bay) and the soccer moms lapped it up. "Oh, this will just show all my children's friend's parents that their children are safe in my home!" and up they went in their yards. It took only two days for some of them to come down as people figured they had just let every thief and robber in the area know where it was safe to attack.

    Keep it up folks, we might just win this thing,

    Peter W. Wickham, Jr.
    AKA The Ol' Grey Ghost

    "My concealed handgun protects you from being a crime victim even if you don't like the idea I'm carrying it."

    "It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it."
    Gen. Robert E. Lee,Army of Northern Virginia, C.S.A. Deo Vindice
  • Jim RauJim Rau Member Posts: 3,550
    edited November -1
    I have done all of the above and counceled my students to do the same with varied results. One other thing I do to businesses that post these signs is to explaine that I do not do business with bigots like them.. They are flabergasted and ask for an explaination. I explain that prejudice is based on ignorance and I assume they are ignorant about selfdefence since they are showing prejudice when it comes to those who have excepted the responcability for their defence and the defence of others. I explaine that I am a retired police officer and I an appauled by the lack of concern they have for peoples civil rights and if they don't change their policy not only will I not do business with them I will tell everyone I know not to do business with them either.[:(!]
    Works for me.

    Self defence is an ablsolute and natural right. Keep your powder dry! J. Rau, Alaska
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Salvage33: as usual I like your style [:)]

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
  • Salvage33Salvage33 Member Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    thanks tr...

    All I have to add is that we had a conversation a few weeks after I took the signs down. He said he thought I was still paranoid. I told him "paranoid keeps you alive, worry just gives you ulcers." He still thinks I'm nuts, but I'm still alive also. [;)]

    John


    The original point and click interface was made by Smith & Wesson
  • JamesRKJamesRK Member Posts: 25,672 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Salvage33
    thanks tr...

    All I have to add is that we had a conversation a few weeks after I took the signs down. He said he thought I was still paranoid. I told him "paranoid keeps you alive, worry just gives you ulcers." He still thinks I'm nuts, but I'm still alive also. [;)]

    John


    The original point and click interface was made by Smith & Wesson

    Even paranoids have enemies.
    The road to hell is paved with COMPROMISE.
  • Ol Grey GhostOl Grey Ghost Member Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Greetings Jim Rau:

    I've read your post and there is some room for interpretation so if I get some points wrong in your meaning excuse me, we are on the same side. If you want to boycott someone and/or their business because of their anti-gun policies, boycott. Don't get in their face. This generally causes them and their friends to write you off as "one of those gun nuts." Private people on their private property generally (generally) cannot violate your civil rights particularly if they just don't want you to bring a "possible dangerous item" unto their property. Our policy of wearing the empty holster out in the open and let store/business personnel approach us let's them "harass" us first. Then we point out we are complying with their wishes but we will, or our survivors, hold them responsible (Another place that came to my mind recently is city properties i.e. city halls, libraries, which I can consider the most public of places because my tax dollars pay for them but do stay away from any building that has a court within it) for injuries we could have prevented if we were armed. We become the "martyrs" which seems the better position to hold in America.

    Now when it comes to a day when the agents of government want to take my guns, or my neighbor's for that matter, then they have to take all my bullets from me first (Here, catch! Bang! Bang!). Till that day I work with my fellow citizens slowly and tenaciously to change the way they think, do business, and, hopefully, the way they vote. When the day comes that they back the agents of government in confiscating my firearms then there are no "friendlies" down range.

    Keep the peace till they draw first blood then make them bleed like they never have before. "If a man should strike you on the left cheek, then offer him the right also." If he should try to kick you in the testicles, punch him in the shin (it'll be around hand level).

    "My concealed handgun protects you from violent crime even if you don't like me carrying it,"

    Peter W. Wickham, Jr.
    AKA The Ol' Grey Ghost

    "It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it."
    Gen. Robert E. Lee,Army of Northern Virginia, C.S.A. Deo Vindice
  • Ol Grey GhostOl Grey Ghost Member Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Okay Jim:

    Different avenues to the same location. One former Texas Peace Officer to a brother in (what color do you wear?) from what some people say is the one State that might be bigger than Texas.

    Keep the badge shiny and the sidearm oiled,

    Peter W. Wickham, Jr.
    AKA The Ol' Grey Ghost

    "It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it."
    Gen. Robert E. Lee,Army of Northern Virginia, C.S.A. Deo Vindice
  • Jim RauJim Rau Member Posts: 3,550
    edited November -1
    Well in CO it was a French blue shirt and Navy blue trousers.[8D]
    In AK it's all dark blue.[8D]
    I worked for 26 years and I didn't get a gold badge untill I retired!!![;)]

    Self defence is an ablsolute and natural right. Keep your powder dry! J. Rau, Alaska
  • JamesRKJamesRK Member Posts: 25,672 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Two good examples of how the public resists when the government actually confiscates firearms are Great Britton (England) and Washington D. C.

    There are still firearms in both places, but not in the hands of the people who should have them.

    We better not let it get that far.
    The road to hell is paved with COMPROMISE.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    JamesRK Posted - 11/08/2004 : 3:17:18 PM
    --.
    quote:Two good examples of how the public resists when the government actually confiscates firearms are Great Britton (England) and Washington D. C.

    There are still firearms in both places, but not in the hands of the people who should have them.

    Two good examples,all right...of cowards subjucated by the Socialists that they bow to.

    Not an example of America at all.
  • JamesRKJamesRK Member Posts: 25,672 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Highball
    JamesRK Posted - 11/08/2004 : 3:17:18 PM
    --.
    quote:Two good examples of how the public resists when the government actually confiscates firearms are Great Britton (England) and Washington D. C.

    There are still firearms in both places, but not in the hands of the people who should have them.

    Two good examples,all right...of cowards subjucated by the Socialists that they bow to.

    Not an example of America at all.

    Ok then, how about New York City and Boston. They haven't actually collected guns like D. C., they just won't let you have one to begin with. The point is we are not going to fight as an organized group, and the few individuals who do won't stop anything. It's better to stop the gun grabbers, or slow them down at least, the only way we can. Elect people who don't want to grab guns.
    The road to hell is paved with COMPROMISE.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Check the Blue Areas.They are mostly made up of people that are incapable of thinking.

    My position is pretty clear.
    The people of America are afraid to resist tyranny ? They deserve to lose the rights the Founders fought and died for.

    Begging politicians to "obey the Constitution"..ain't for me.
    NO MORE..never again will I bend a knee to an Elite ,trying to get him to please,pretty please stop trying to take away what is mine by GOD-GIVEN GRANTS...as enumerated by those dead white guys..the Founders.

    No..I will stand by and watch the steady erosion of rights.Perhaps some day enough people will get fed up with the loss of freedoms..and be willing to stop it.
  • Ol Grey GhostOl Grey Ghost Member Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Greetings:

    Owning something (like firearms) while legal and then keeping them after they are banned or outlawed is a form of resistance (Colonial America [the "shot heard 'round the world" was fired from a private-owned firearm in resistance to British gun & powder confiscation of Lexington and Concord], NAZI occupied France and Poland, etc.). Those of us prepared to fight to the death will probably not make that much of a dent (my family is well aware of my intentions and understand and we have made arrangements for a worst care scenario; my son wants to stay and fight with me but I have asked him to take care of his mother and nephew and leave with them before whoever may arrive). As the minimal amount of outrage at the Ruby Ridge/Waco incidents shows the average American is more concerned about what Reality Show is on TV tonight and what idiot will be voted off the show.

    Voting is not necessarily effective as politicians always must trade favors and compromise to get what little they may accomplish (not to say to give up just realize it may be like the Boston Terrier chasing the School Bus; what's he going to do with it when he catches it?) I believe it will be the resolve that we gunowners and gun rights activist show, united or seperately, that there will be a point you cannot push us beyond. "From my cold, dead hands" should not just be a quaint saying recited by wealthy professional pretenders but the motto we live our lives by.

    Now my family does not hide in our house locked in the dark looking for "black helicopters" and people staring at our house. We celebrate Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year's Day, and other holidays. We shop, go to movies, and enjoy life. Nobody is depressed or moody beyond normal human emotions based on life on this planet. We obey the law as it is normally fair to our fellow human beings to do so. But we have a line in the sand that will not be crossed. As I tell all the people who read this that it exists so I tell all who may bring the subject up. I don't throw it into anyone's face as I don't like anyone shoving anything into mine (particularly cheap cigarette smoke; but I defend your right to commit suicide in slow motion, my opinion).

    If you share this resolve, sound off by the numbers and let's see how many across this country are ready. I'll keep count (but not record; they're not going to subpoena anything from me).

    God bless each and everyone of you and yours,

    Peter W. Wickham, Jr
    AKA The Ol' Grey Ghost

    Brother Rau:

    When there was the chance that the city council would approve a new budget so that my Sergeant could be promoted to Patrol Division Captain and I could be promoted to Sergeant/Midnight, there was discussion of having to buy me a new badge because the one my Sergeant had was falling apart. I said if I got promoted I would buy my own badge as I wanted it to be Silver. The chief asked me why and I asked what was the badge color of all the detectives who were Sergeants and one Captain. He said Gold. I told him I wanted Siver because I wanted people to know that I still worked for a living. My Sergeant (female) punched me hard in the arm (I mean hard). The Chief, a retired Army NCO, just chuckled.

    "It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it."
    Gen. Robert E. Lee,Army of Northern Virginia, C.S.A. Deo Vindice
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Ghost;
    Hundreds of posters on these boards.Less then a half-a-dozen will go 'on record'..as you asked.

    Smart,perhaps...At least the old "Liberty Tree" had some degree of privacy.

    However...I expect less then 3% of the population to respond to a total ban on firearms with anything less then running down to turn them in.

    3 %...Hmmmmmm...7 million people..the BEST America has to offer.I expect that is plenty enough to drive the Socialists back into their stinking dens for another hundred years or so....

    Pray for a total gun ban.That is the only thing that will jar law-abiding folks to their feet..with a rifle in his hands...

    Mean while..there is absolutely nothing that needs to be done to slow..nor speed up what is coming.The laws will soon enough take care of the last doubt in the minds of decent Americans...
  • Jim RauJim Rau Member Posts: 3,550
    edited November -1
    I thing it will be more than 3%.. When Klinton got the AWB going I was selling pre ban weapons like hot cakes and when I ask many of the buyers why they wanted them (many were upscale folks) they almost all replied "So when they come to get my guns I am armed atleast as well as they are". Well that made me stop and thing because being a cop puts me right on the firing line. I went to work and started asking the guys and gals I work with about this and the vast majority (all the veteren cops) said they would have nothing to do with general confiscation of guns. Now bear in mind this was in the 80's in Colorado. I got a lot of flack from the 'admistration' for even descussing that. I wonder what the attitudes of the 'new generation' of cops are???[?]
    Ghost,
    I can relate to that. While doing some 'shoot, don't shoot' training I shot the 'gold' badge out of the hands of several targets and everyone got a kick out of that!![:D] They said there apeared to be some subliminaul reason for that.
    Seriously though. I am the same way when it come to my and other peoples 'rights' THEY ARE WORTH FIGHTING FOR. Like you, live goes on normaly and I do not fear the government, but if they try to disarm me they will have a fight on their hands.[:(!]

    Self defence is an ablsolute and natural right. Keep your powder dry! J. Rau, Alaska
  • pickenuppickenup Member Posts: 22,846 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Some people have made their intent public, in past posts, on this forum.

    Here are a couple.

    http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=78719

    http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=83662&SearchTerms=take,your,guns

    The gene pool needs chlorine.
  • JamesRKJamesRK Member Posts: 25,672 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Highball,

    We are more or less in agreement. The main difference is I get the impression that you think when the time comes, you won't be standing alone. The American people aren't going to rise up and demand their God given rights.

    When Washington D. C. collected the guns, folks either turned them in or hid them, no up-rise. When Canada outlawed handguns, they turned them in or hid them, no up-rise. When England collected all guns, they turned them in or hid them, no up-rise. (In England, it is illegal to carry a hat pin or knitting needle if you intend to defend yourself with it).

    You and a few others, maybe me, will resist. It won't make any difference. On Ruby Ridge they even killed the man's dog. Nothing has been done about it. I am already an old man. In 15 or 20 years, you will be an old man, and I'll be dead. That's two less who even consider resisting. Assume you are correct that 7,000,000 people will rise up and demand their God given rights. The socialists, or the people working for them, won't have to disarm 7,000,000 people. They will have to disarm one person 7,000,000 times.

    I don't like seeing things this way, just looking at things as they are instead of the way I wish they were or should be. This is already not the country I grew up in, and I have no reason to believe it is going to get better in my lifetime.

    We have thousands of people employed full time writing new laws every day. Each law they write takes some of your and my freedom. I can't earn or spend a dollar without paying tribute.

    I wish you the best of luck, and hope you are right.
    The road to hell is paved with COMPROMISE.
  • Ol Grey GhostOl Grey Ghost Member Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks Pickenup:

    By the dates I see I wasn't haunting this forum around those times but I'm glad to see there are some who make it loud, clear, and specific where they stand.

    Highball:

    Your idea is right. Folks, as you were, don't let me know any number. Those who are vocal have already made their point and, jeez, I might be an undercover Internet BATFink (they've done it before) for all you know. Now making fun, Highball, just stating a real possibility. The number who rush in to turn theirs in who are real gun owners and gun activist will be small but how many of the wishy-washy who are our neighbors who will report us (I know they have guns because I saw them cleaning them on their patio two years ago when it was legal to own them. Kick their doors down officer!) is the number that worries me (worries, not scares). Right out of Orwell's "1984."

    Brother Rau:

    (some of you may already have heard of this story) A few years back an Army Officer working on his Master's or other such degree was given permission to conduct a poll amongst several soldiers of both enlisted and officer rank to work on a project of Sociology. One of the questions dealt with firing on fellow Americans who refused to turn in their private Arms when ordered to do so. Now some of the persons answering the questionaire, like most of us, were incensed that the question was on the poll. That was simple enough that the Officer had a valid reason to ask the question. The scary part was how many answered Yes and didn't know what the fuss was about. I wouldn't worry about local cops who know me and who I have helped in the past, its the Federal ones and the military that have me worried (worried, not scared).

    Well my grandson is calling and it's my shift so this my last post for the night so you all take care till I'm back "haunting" again.

    Peter W. Wickham, Jr.
    AKA The Ol' Grey Ghost


    "It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it."
    Gen. Robert E. Lee,Army of Northern Virginia, C.S.A. Deo Vindice
  • Salvage33Salvage33 Member Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I believe this topic was also covered in the Politics Forum, at length.

    John


    The original point and click interface was made by Smith & Wesson
  • dlonewolflldlonewolfll Member Posts: 77 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    It is true that we as law enforcement officers are not constitutionally obligated to protect the individual, we just do it anyway, to the best of our ability.

    I always encourged people that were worried about protecting themselves to do so, but do it the right way.

    1) get formal handgun training from someone that knows what they are doing and know how to teach you;

    2) keep yourself informed on the ever changing laws regarding self-defense;

    3) practice, practice, practice;

    4) don't shoot me, even by accident;

    Things to remember in a trial for using the firearm in self defense:

    1) never say you shot to protect property, you were protecting yourself;

    2) swear and affirm the you were indeed in fear for your life;

    3) you emptied your fire are to stop the threat;

    4) get some expert suport testimony (firearm instructor/firearms expert)

    5) get an excellent attorney----don't be cheap here!;

    6) pray for a simpathetic jury.



    Remember this---" If you walk around with your pants and underwear around your ankles, someone IS going to screw you" D.L. LaRoque
  • JamesRKJamesRK Member Posts: 25,672 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by dlonewolfll
    It is true that we as law enforcement officers are not constitutionally obligated to
    protect the individual, we just do it anyway, to the best of our ability.

    To the best of your ability is the point. Some of us live in a fairly large county, with not many deputies. If I call 911, and there is nothing else going on in the county, depending on where they are at the time, a deputy could be here in about 20 to 30 minutes. A lot can happen in 20 minutes.

    If somebody comes through a locked door without an invitation, I don't think I'll wait for the deputy. I'll call 911 after I take the safety off the Remington 1100.

    I appreciate your good intentions, but you can't be everywhere at the same time.
    The road to hell is paved with COMPROMISE.
  • D.K.D.K. Member Posts: 291 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Highball and pickenup....count me in! I'm a radical too!
    I believe that eventually...we'll have to get it on or giveit up.

    Highball, are you sure that we are not clones of the same
    radical person?
  • dsmithdsmith Member Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Kalifornian, just wanted to say I like your site.
  • zspeed130zspeed130 Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Excellent topic kalifornian. It is ones responsibility to protect himself and his family. It is not the responsibility of a police officer evne if it is there job to help if they are able. Anyone who sacrifices their right to self defense and would lay that responsibility at anothers feet is weak and irresponsible. Furthermore I believe it to be irresponsible for any head of houshold to be without the tools or training needed to adequetly protect his home and family

    "You dance with the Devil the Devil does'nt change pops,the Devil changes you"-Max California
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