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Jack,
Maybe I watched too much "Rat Patrol" as a kid, or maybe I read too many books as an adult. When I see someone quote Adolph Hitler as if it is to be listened to and revered, I am ready to take on a Panther tank with a jeep, like on the TV show.
quote:I understand gunphreak's point about presumption of innocence, but in the manner prescribed above, the investigation is only on the names on the list. The only person who knows the buyer's name is the dealer.
That is, up until the BATFags show up, demanding all of the form 4473's, then, the feds know. And why would the feds need to know such? History has demonstrated the answer to this as the first step in gov't monopoly of force, and when that occurs, it is immediately carried out to genocide.
Since we have certain people on this board that are less interested in the concept of eliminating the criminal element from society in favor of the so-called "aegis of the background check", I have a suggestion for you. All form 4473's are burned tomorrow, and all those who have done the sort of evil that relinquishes gun rights and have been released back into society to commit evil on the populace once more have their SSN's put into a database held by a private company (not the feds), and when a person goes to buy a gun, the dealer looks up the SSN of the person who desires to buy. If the number shows up, purchase is denied. If not, purchase is complete. No names, no phone calls, and no further intrusion.
And now for my next question: How many of you think the black market will comply?
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
You do raise a good point about the black market phreak. There is no easy answer to this question. Since we are not hard enough on criminals, we have to adjust our lifestyles accordingly. I'm not asking for an answer here, but how many people lock there guns up? I have a buddy whose apartment was broken into yesterday and all of his guns were stolen. He has renters insurance and photos of everything so he will be compensated for his loss, but those guns just found their way into criminal hands. I have left at least one .45 out at all times. But after thinking about it, I will start locking it up too. The only gun out will be my carry gun. Since I always leave the house with it, I know it won't be stolen. The rest will be in the safe.
quote:I have left at least one .45 out at all times. But after thinking about it, I will start locking it up too. The only gun out will be my carry gun. Since I always leave the house with it, I know it won't be stolen. The rest will be in the safe.
Good idea, there, cowboy. I'm not going to tell the others how best to store their guns, but I will say it is YOUR decision, not mine, not your mother's, and not the gov't.
I keep a number of my guns loaded at all times, and every member of the household knows it, which is why, unless it is on me, it is in the safe, and only I know the combination. Safes are excellent ideas, provided that you secure it to the floor, and it is not easy to find or remove in the house. Generally, someone is always home, though, so homw intruders will always find someone at home, ready to kill them.
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
quote:...All form 4473's are burned tomorrow, and all those who have done the sort of evil that relinquishes gun rights and have been released back into society to commit evil on the populace once more have their SSN's put into a database held by a private company (not the feds), and when a person goes to buy a gun, the dealer looks up the SSN of the person who desires to buy. If the number shows up, purchase is denied. If not, purchase is complete. No names, no phone calls, and no further intrusion.
Amen, Gunphreak! Although I don't know if I am totally for the "private company" idea, I think they can be even more malicious than the Feds. Here is my gun purchase concept that I posted on the "what state is the easiest to obtain a handgun" thread a few days ago:
1. You pick out the gun and indicate you want to buy it.
2. You fill out a form that has the pertinent info for a background check, basically the top 1/3 of the yellow form (name, address, SSN, DL#, etc.).
3. The gun dealer makes a telephone call to the background check center (I would presume it to be a state or federal law enforcement office), where an officer is sitting in front of a database terminal.
4. The dealer relays only the information on the form to this officer. The officer then checks to insure that your ID is valid, that your SSN matches, that you have not been convicted of any felonies, and that you have no warrants out for your arrest. Then the officer gives either a go-ahead or denial for the purchase.
5. The dealer then GIVES YOU THE FORM BACK. No copies are made of the form. The serial number of the gun IS NOT RECORDED.
6. You then pay the man and take your new property home.
-WW
"...That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state."
-The Debates in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Virginia, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution. June 27, 1788.
And what do you presume to do about the fact that 50 years ago there were a few things that were felonies...today there are 100's ?
You have a government hellbent on control...and felony "Crimes" will increase tenfold in the next decade....
Are you afraid of walking around armed...prepared to stop criminal actions in your vicinity ?
Why do you feel comfortable allowing some breaurat the power of life and death over you ? Why do you trust a nameless,faceless voice over a phone...and distrust a citizen sitting at the next table ?
Records are a necessary evil for obvious reasons but getting any entity the funds and approval for access to personal information from Uncle Sam is next to impossible. We have to identifiy and record criminals to monitor so we must give a little, I don't like it either. Here's an update, last week Salt Lake County jail announced it will no longer book women into the jail unless the charges are a felony and three misdemeaners for men because of overcrowding. Sounds like discrimination.
quote:Is it unconstitutional to have a age restriction on firearms?
No, unless it becomes something unjustifiable, like, say, 21, 25, or higher. An adult is an adult, and that is the way it should always be. In other words, yes, it is unconstitutional for our country to demand its handgun applicants be 21. It is unconstitutional to demand its alcohol purchasers to be 21.
At 18 years old, you are afforded all the rights of an adult, with the warnings of what exactly you do not have the right to do, and what such consequences are. Reactive solutions are the way to go, not proactive. Proactive only punishes the innocent.
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
quote:Amen, Gunphreak! Although I don't know if I am totally for the "private company" idea, I think they can be even more malicious than the Feds.
Ah, but they can be sued easier that suing the feds. And such would be an easy thing to do... just prove through court records why your SSN should not appear on the list, and bang, they fork out some mad cash, and you get your gun anyway.
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
quote: All form 4473's are burned tomorrow, and all those who have done the sort of evil that relinquishes gun rights and have been released back into society to commit evil on the populace once more have their SSN's put into a database held by a private company (not the feds), and when a person goes to buy a gun, the dealer looks up the SSN of the person who desires to buy. If the number shows up, purchase is denied. If not, purchase is complete. No names, no phone calls, and no further intrusion.
Looks good to me gunphreak!
EhlerDave,
I've spend hundreds or thousands of hours playing violent video games. Even the new controversial stuff like Grand Theft Auto, where you play as the violent criminal. Knowing that people like to play these games does not scare me.
In Grand Theft Auto, you can get the police after you, and the more you evade or attack the cops, the more intensive the search for you becomes. They'll eventually send out the national guard to get you. However you must always keep in mind that these games are not real. In real life, you'd be dead very soon after starting the reckless behavior seen in the game. I believe that almost everybody is smart enough to realize this.
People like comrade Mikhail Moore would say that violence in this country comes from the violent video games and movies. They'd say it comes from the music they listen to, or their country's history, or any excuse.
It's not the fault of the country. It's not the fault of the music they listen to or the movies they watch or the video games they play. Excuses like this are part of the liberal mindset because liberals can't admit to themselves that evil exists, and they want to believe that all people are good. They want to believe that the kids got a hold of the guns, and the guns made them evil. Not so.
One final note. In Alaska and Vermont you can carry concealed without a permit. They are among the least violent states. Also, if you must have a license, CCW people are among the least likely to commit a violent crime. I say all states should have concealed carry laws like Vermont or Alaska.
Once again proving conclusively that you would rather trust GOVERNMENT to be in control of your life then you......Coupled with the exact SAME elitest attitude of those who would control us..the US Citizens.
Namely..." I am good people..I went thru a background check..that guy over there is a criminal because he didn't..."
Meanwhile...you...and they..spit on the founders as know nothings..'It was a different day and age..'.."the people today are more violent.."
What a load of crap.Today the difference is..we lack the balls to put to death those violent animals that have ALWAYS WALKED amoung us...
No background checks. If the Judicial Branch did its job, there would be no argument for it. The 2nd Amendment is clear and states an inalienable right. The debates in the Federalist Papers and by the anti-Federalists make clear that our Founding Principles are based on unchangeable rights granted by existence as human beings, not something granted by government, and not to be bounced back and forth to get paracitic politicians (re)elected.
Even the discussion is just one more example of Americans today imagining themselves to be wiser than the genius that created our system. If you want to change it, there is a way: Constitutional Amendment. The problem cannot be fixed by yet another bandaid of laws or "legislating from the bench" that ultimately destroys the Bill of Rights and puts even more power in the hands of its true enemies.
As an add-on to what Fitz has said, Repealing the 2nd Amendment changes nothing. God gave it to us, and only God, not majority rule can remove it.
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
It's a serious crime to murder, rape, rob or assault someone. It's a serious crime for a convicted felon to possess a firearm. It's a serious crime to knowingly sell, loan or give a firearm to a felon.
Those are the laws we need and more than these restricts real rights of citizens.
Punish criminals with guns. No more. No less. Let citizens keep and bear arms so they can defend themselves, their families, their friends and their country without restrictions. That's the law of the land.
A background check does not work with phony identification and stolen identities. Why bother?
Defender
Private investigator licensed in AZ & CA that specializes in self defense cases.
A background check does not work with phony identification and stolen identities. Why bother?
Possessing identification and an identity is a small burden on the honest and lawful citizen; at least in my past experience.
Having to obtain "phony identification and stolen identities" as least makes it just a little big harder for the criminals to obtain guns. And if those criminals do obtain guns by having and using such bogus credentials at least when they commit their crimes and are caught with those illegally obtained guns, then the vast, general public can take some comfort in the fact that the criminal didn't just go down to the local hardware and pickup that gun off the shelf,pay for it and walk out.
Regardless of federal or state constitutions, or right or wrong, or the intention of our country's founders, or what we minority of gun owners and even smaller minority of strong gun right supporters think, want or plan, if the large majority of America citizens ever decide that we should not have any guns at all, that is exactly what will happen to us.
either that or civil war over it and I want neither.
quote:And if those criminals do obtain guns by having and using such bogus credentials at least when they commit their crimes and are caught with those illegally obtained guns, then the vast, general public can take some comfort in the fact that the criminal didn't just go down to the local hardware and pickup that gun off the shelf,pay for it and walk out.
This is like finding out you have a cancer that is 99% treatable, only to find out you are that 1 %. Give the victim and everyone around them a gun, and it will no longer matter where the gun was obtained, because the perp will be dead.
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
tr fox wrote:
quote:
if the large majority of America citizens ever decide that we should not have any guns at all, that is exactly what will happen to us.
either that or civil war over it and I want neither.
quote:TrFox; We labor under a hundred times more indignities then they.
Yes quote:, but we also have more ways and choices of how to get rid of some, most or perhaps all those "indignities" without civil war.
TRFox;
I assume then that we shall see a dramatic turnaround in the immediate future then....hmmmm ??
The fact remains. Less then 3 % of the population is intelligent enough to even recognize there IS a problem...let alone "Getting involved in the political system"...Seems that most folks involved in the political system are SOCIALISTS...people only interested in controlling OTHER folks lives.
See..those that love freedom are not likely to be involved in politics..prefering to live their life as an individual. That of course leaves the field open to ego-driven hollow suits.
That is precisely WHY the Founders envisioned "Civilian Legistlators"..common folk drafted by their neighbors, sent to Washington for A term or two..then gratefully going back home to live under what few laws they passed...
YOU DO REALIZE THAT NOBODY EXCEPT THE STORE OWNER REALLY KNOWS FOR SURE THAT A GUN WAS PURCHASED THAT DAY OR NOT..ONLY WHEN A GUN IS REPORTED STOLEN INVOLVED IN A CRIME ETC IS WHEN SERIEL NUMBERS AND NAMES COME IN EFFECT. SO WHY DOES IT REALLY MATTER THAT YOU FILLED OUT A FORM OR NOT. BREECH OR RIGHTS YOU SAY..HOW MANY PEOPLE REALLY DO YOU THINK ARE ACTUALLY TURNED DOWN WHEN THEY TRY TO PURCHASE A GUN? OUR RIGHTS ARE STEPPED ON A LITTLE ..BUT THE MORALS OF THE SOCIETY HAVE CHANGED FROM WHEN THE CONSITUTION WAS WRITTEN. UNTIL THE TIME WHEN SOCIETY CHANGES FOR THE BETTER ARE RIGHTS WILL PROBABLY GET STEPPED ON EVEN MORE.. IF WE AS A SOCIETY COMBINED CAN NOT BE THE TYPE OF PEOPLE WE NEED TO BE , WE DESERVE TO LOSE SOME RIGHTS. FILLING OUT A LITTLE PIECE OF PAPER IS NOT A BIG DEAL. TRY LOOKING AT THE GENERATION IN THE 20'S RIGHT NOW. ITS NOT GOING TO BE PRETTY..THEY JOB HOP .. THEY CANT TAKE THE RESBONSIBILITY OF TAKING BIRTH CONTROL .. THEY DONT EVEN TRY .. THEY JUST WANT TO LOOK OUT FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT HELP ANYONE ELSE.. THEY TEND TO BE RUDE AND
ABRUPT..
TIMES CHANGE, PEOPLE CHANGE THEREFORE THE NATURAL BORN RIGHTS WE HAVE HAD WILL CHANGE.
Wonderful, Shelly.....you have described the death of America...in one all-capped post.
Congratulations on accepting tyranny. Without a struggle, Without A WIMPER....
Lest you feel hurt by my statement..let me assure you...you are in the majority. Your views represent the bulk of the population.
One other point. The Founders..far wiser then you and I ..feared and despised Democracy.In other words....They knew better then trust the bulk of the people. They set up guidelines...so you compromisers would find it very difficult to run over other people desiring FREEDOM...a concept you do not grasp.
IF WE AS A SOCIETY COMBINED CAN NOT BE THE TYPE OF PEOPLE WE NEED TO BE , WE DESERVE TO LOSE SOME RIGHTS. FILLING OUT A LITTLE PIECE OF PAPER IS NOT A BIG DEAL.
This particular thought puts you in the same camp as the politicans, judges, pressure groups, etc. who have a very strange way of attempting to manage society. Since criminals refuse to obey the countless laws pass by the liberal, socialist left, that group has decided to devote its efforts to piling more and more laws on which only effect the already lawful; since the criminals by their very nature (their called "outlaws" for a reason) refuse to obey the law.
So in spite of your thought you expressed, it is not "we as a society" that is causing problems. It is the lawbreakers.
The vast majority of American ARE the "type of people we need to be". Most of the members here on GB.com ARE the "type of people we need to be", that is why we are government qualified to buy, own and use guns.
So if my thoughts are true, exactly why do the people and groups I named above not trust us and pile on more and more restrictions and laws that ONLY THE GOOD AND LAWFUL OBEY?
Surely you don't agree with more and more laws being piled on which are only obeyed by the already lawful? But your post which I quoted makes you sound like you do.
Please everyone remember that once you get the basic, effective laws in place, it only hampers the already lawful to pile on more and more laws. Surely no one believes that the violent criminal, preparing to go out on a night of violence and rampage against innocent citizens, stops and checks the law books so as to determine exactly what he can and cannot do or what weapons he can carry and use.
The fact remains. Less then 3 % of the population is intelligent enough to even recognize there IS a problem...let alone "Getting involved in the political system"...Seems that most folks involved in the political system are SOCIALISTS...people only interested in controlling OTHER folks lives.
See..those that love freedom are not likely to be involved in politics..prefering to live their life as an individual. That of course leaves the field open to ego-driven hollow suits.
That is precisely WHY the Founders envisioned "Civilian Legistlators"..common folk drafted by their neighbors, sent to Washington for A term or two..then gratefully going back home to live under what few laws they passed...
Gotta give Highball credit. Rarely have I read truer words or read the situation accurately summed up in only a couple of paragraphs.
what age do you think the average person on gunbroker is? Im guessing from just reading some of these forums that the average is 30-50.. Tell me dont you think society as a WHOLE has changed morally since you have grown up? ( and not for the better ) I have seen and read tons of 4473 forms and most of the general public cant even fill them out properly. I do believe we have a right to have arms and freedom. I also feel that no matter who we vote for , not much will be changed do to all the bull.... in goverment. It still is: we as society ,since all together combined the good and the bad make up the society we live in. Therefore we have to live with the laws for the made for the people that are not quite honest and the only thing maybe keeping them from committing a crime is the thought of jail. The real criminals will find away around anything, so your correct they laws are not really for them .
Tr my friend...you and a couple others have forced me to dig deep..to actually think about the problems facing us.
I realized that I had become locked into a few phrases..trotted out to club anti-gunners with. Mostly they are not intelligent enough to require much more.....
Pro-gunner intelligent people..that are convinced that America needs SOME gun laws..are a different breed.The difference I see in those like you..Mr Fox...is that I believe you will be there in the event the unthinkable happens. The day the empty suits pass a gun ban...
I don't support gun laws of any kind. From the 1790s-1920s there were no gun laws, and the country wasn't destroying itself. Now gun control runs rampant, and the areas with the most laws also have the most violent crime. If self defense is against the law, then the law abiding citizens will be defenseless. Simple as that.
quote:Originally posted by Highball
Tr my friend...you and a couple others have forced me to dig deep..to actually think about the problems facing us.
I realized that I had become locked into a few phrases..trotted out to club anti-gunners with. Mostly they are not intelligent enough to require much more.....
Pro-gunner intelligent people..that are convinced that America needs SOME gun laws..are a different breed.The difference I see in those like you..Mr Fox...is that I believe you will be there in the event the unthinkable happens. The day the empty suits pass a gun ban...
quote:Originally posted by dsmith
I don't support gun laws of any kind. From the 1790s-1920s there were no gun laws, and the country wasn't destroying itself. Now gun control runs rampant, and the areas with the most laws also have the most violent crime. If self defense is against the law, then the law abiding citizens will be defenseless. Simple as that.
I think Shelly has pretty accurately described the animosity and apathy that is inheriting our nation. My generation (I am 29) is full of mostly selfish, ignorant, and deceitful sheeple, from the best I can tell. I don't expect ANY of them to stand up for MY rights.
Gunphreak and Highball, you guys are at the edge. You are just waiting for the moment to break out your full-autos and go to town on the "government". You think you are part of the 3% minority. In reality you are probably more likely part of the 0.00003% minority. That is about 9,000 people in our country. I'm talking about the folks that would actually give it all up, start killing cops and feds and let their families and homes go up in flames Waco-style.
I don't blame people of my generation for being apathetic of government and society, I think we all are. I blame them for being too lazy to get off their butts and get involved in their communities and governments to change it. Instead, they are happy to stuff themselves with fast food and watch cable TV all day. I think that is the real difference between our society now and the Revolutionary Times. I think people back then felt what it was like to be hungry, to see your children dying at birth, to see disease consume your friends and neighbors. When the Brits came in and started demanding MORE, I can see why that 33% snapped and decided they weren't gonna take it.
I don't see it today. I have never seen a truly starved person in my lifetime (in this country). Even the bums I see are all overweight. I think that our nation has moved into a period of submissive contentment, ala late Roman Empire.
Just my observation,
WW
"...That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state."
-The Debates in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Virginia, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution. June 27, 1788.
quote:Gunphreak and Highball, you guys are at the edge. You are just waiting for the moment to break out your full-autos and go to town on the "government". You think you are part of the 3% minority. In reality you are probably more likely part of the 0.00003% minority. That is about 9,000 people in our country. I'm talking about the folks that would actually give it all up, start killing cops and feds and let their families and homes go up in flames Waco-style.
What do you think he's saying here, Highball??
Since I was pulled into this one, here is my thoughts on this line:
"If you actually think I am dragging my knuckles waiting for someone to come here, you're out of your damn mind. I would not be firing the first shot, or drawing first blood. The rest of that will be decided by them, not me."
And those people in Waco only wanted left alone. The fact that the seige on the Branch Davidians ended with the feds, under Janet Reno's instruction, used a banned incendiary to toast the compound should give you guys a little bit of what may occur, and what depths they are willing to stoop to to get away with them.
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
What do I think he is saying ?
I think his coddled generation is not used to men speaking their mind. Automatically, trained by fedgov propaganda camps, anyone that does..is an enemy of the state...fully expected to start shooting people just any day....he is a sterling example of successful brain washing.
Completely misses the oft-repeated statement..."Stand clear and allow those in power the rope to hang themselves with"...That, friend...will bring reality home to the present generation. By decent men standing clear..allowing the brain dead masses to be completely subjucated...there will come a time that "Hunger", "Fear", and the Iron Fist forge you into a man and American...or just another sheeple...fit only for sheering.
I'm talking about the folks that would actually give it all up, start killing cops and feds and let their families and homes go up in flames Waco-style.
Uhhh, the Davidians did not give it all up, and just let their families and homes go up in flames. THey tried to fight the beast off, but in the end, the beast had its way with them.
"Waiting tables is what you know, making cheese is what I know-lets stick with what we know!"
-Jimmy the cheese man
Just to be clear, my comments were not meant as any sort of judgement or personal attack to either of you, Gunphreak or Highball. I single you two out because you often present very similar points of view. I do think your points of view are very important in the 2nd Amendment debate and I do enjoy reading your responses. I would never advocate anything that would prevent you from expressing your opinions.
To clarify my original point, it is my observation that the two of you often speak of "the day when..." etc., etc. I take this to mean the day when people will rise up against the government (or the social norm, or whatever) and topple those in power to reform our nation in the vision of our Founding Fathers. This sounds like a cleansing process that both of you have come to the conclusion is the only way that the people will ever win back our rights from the government. I understand that you often say you will not take an active role in facilitating this revolution, but you do give the impression that you salivate at the actions of the gun-grabbers when they push us closer to this breaking point.
My observation is that this will basically never happen in our lifetime. As per Shelly's comments, I agree that the generation that is inheriting our nation is way to lazy and apathetic to ever instigate such an enlightened revolution. By today's standards, as long as folks get a Taco Bell within reasonable driving distance (where they can use food stamps) and can finance the purchase of a Sony Playstation with money they don't have, then these sheeple are willing to sit back in their relative calm and comfort and sacrifice whatever Constitutional rights they have left.
I will qualify this by saying that this could change by the actions of an external force (nuclear terrorist attack, etc.) where we really WOULD have people starving in the streets. But I question how realistic a possibility that is.
Just my fedgov brainwashed opinion,
[:D]
WW
"...That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state."
-The Debates in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Virginia, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution. June 27, 1788.
We have seemed to get off the subject a little, but I am glad someone agrees with me a little. I was starting to wonder whether I had a inaccurate view of what was going on with society .
Shelley, I do hope you continue to hang around here. As for my age: I'll soon be 21. Anybody who spends a lot of time here knows my politics.
Since you are a relatively new member, I'd like to know where you stand. Do you propose limits on the kinds of firearms individuals can own, or just limits on the type of (irresponsible) citizens who can own them?
I think that at very least people should be able to own full autos, as since 1934 only two crimes have been commited with a legally obtained full auto. I don't believe a crime has ever been commited with a legally owned rocket launcher or other Class III item.
Just like to know where the "new" members stand, so I can get a feeling as to how they think.
Shelly, this particular post topic was the first time I became aware of you. Please stick around and post often. Especially here on the Gunrights section.
Admininstrator Pickenup gets a big fat raise if he can get the body count up here on the Gunrights side, so please help [:o)][:o)]
Comments
Jack,
Maybe I watched too much "Rat Patrol" as a kid, or maybe I read too many books as an adult. When I see someone quote Adolph Hitler as if it is to be listened to and revered, I am ready to take on a Panther tank with a jeep, like on the TV show.
Sorry about your feelings...NOT! [:0]
That is, up until the BATFags show up, demanding all of the form 4473's, then, the feds know. And why would the feds need to know such? History has demonstrated the answer to this as the first step in gov't monopoly of force, and when that occurs, it is immediately carried out to genocide.
Since we have certain people on this board that are less interested in the concept of eliminating the criminal element from society in favor of the so-called "aegis of the background check", I have a suggestion for you. All form 4473's are burned tomorrow, and all those who have done the sort of evil that relinquishes gun rights and have been released back into society to commit evil on the populace once more have their SSN's put into a database held by a private company (not the feds), and when a person goes to buy a gun, the dealer looks up the SSN of the person who desires to buy. If the number shows up, purchase is denied. If not, purchase is complete. No names, no phone calls, and no further intrusion.
And now for my next question: How many of you think the black market will comply?
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
Luke 22:36.
"Followers of Christ, be armed."
Good idea, there, cowboy. I'm not going to tell the others how best to store their guns, but I will say it is YOUR decision, not mine, not your mother's, and not the gov't.
I keep a number of my guns loaded at all times, and every member of the household knows it, which is why, unless it is on me, it is in the safe, and only I know the combination. Safes are excellent ideas, provided that you secure it to the floor, and it is not easy to find or remove in the house. Generally, someone is always home, though, so homw intruders will always find someone at home, ready to kill them.
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
Luke 22:36.
"Followers of Christ, be armed."
Amen, Gunphreak! Although I don't know if I am totally for the "private company" idea, I think they can be even more malicious than the Feds. Here is my gun purchase concept that I posted on the "what state is the easiest to obtain a handgun" thread a few days ago:
1. You pick out the gun and indicate you want to buy it.
2. You fill out a form that has the pertinent info for a background check, basically the top 1/3 of the yellow form (name, address, SSN, DL#, etc.).
3. The gun dealer makes a telephone call to the background check center (I would presume it to be a state or federal law enforcement office), where an officer is sitting in front of a database terminal.
4. The dealer relays only the information on the form to this officer. The officer then checks to insure that your ID is valid, that your SSN matches, that you have not been convicted of any felonies, and that you have no warrants out for your arrest. Then the officer gives either a go-ahead or denial for the purchase.
5. The dealer then GIVES YOU THE FORM BACK. No copies are made of the form. The serial number of the gun IS NOT RECORDED.
6. You then pay the man and take your new property home.
-WW
"...That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state."
-The Debates in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Virginia, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution. June 27, 1788.
You have a government hellbent on control...and felony "Crimes" will increase tenfold in the next decade....
Are you afraid of walking around armed...prepared to stop criminal actions in your vicinity ?
Why do you feel comfortable allowing some breaurat the power of life and death over you ? Why do you trust a nameless,faceless voice over a phone...and distrust a citizen sitting at the next table ?
No, unless it becomes something unjustifiable, like, say, 21, 25, or higher. An adult is an adult, and that is the way it should always be. In other words, yes, it is unconstitutional for our country to demand its handgun applicants be 21. It is unconstitutional to demand its alcohol purchasers to be 21.
At 18 years old, you are afforded all the rights of an adult, with the warnings of what exactly you do not have the right to do, and what such consequences are. Reactive solutions are the way to go, not proactive. Proactive only punishes the innocent.
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
Luke 22:36.
"Followers of Christ, be armed."
Ah, but they can be sued easier that suing the feds. And such would be an easy thing to do... just prove through court records why your SSN should not appear on the list, and bang, they fork out some mad cash, and you get your gun anyway.
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
Luke 22:36.
"Followers of Christ, be armed."
Looks good to me gunphreak!
I've spend hundreds or thousands of hours playing violent video games. Even the new controversial stuff like Grand Theft Auto, where you play as the violent criminal. Knowing that people like to play these games does not scare me.
In Grand Theft Auto, you can get the police after you, and the more you evade or attack the cops, the more intensive the search for you becomes. They'll eventually send out the national guard to get you. However you must always keep in mind that these games are not real. In real life, you'd be dead very soon after starting the reckless behavior seen in the game. I believe that almost everybody is smart enough to realize this.
People like comrade Mikhail Moore would say that violence in this country comes from the violent video games and movies. They'd say it comes from the music they listen to, or their country's history, or any excuse.
It's not the fault of the country. It's not the fault of the music they listen to or the movies they watch or the video games they play. Excuses like this are part of the liberal mindset because liberals can't admit to themselves that evil exists, and they want to believe that all people are good. They want to believe that the kids got a hold of the guns, and the guns made them evil. Not so.
One final note. In Alaska and Vermont you can carry concealed without a permit. They are among the least violent states. Also, if you must have a license, CCW people are among the least likely to commit a violent crime. I say all states should have concealed carry laws like Vermont or Alaska.
Namely..." I am good people..I went thru a background check..that guy over there is a criminal because he didn't..."
Meanwhile...you...and they..spit on the founders as know nothings..'It was a different day and age..'.."the people today are more violent.."
What a load of crap.Today the difference is..we lack the balls to put to death those violent animals that have ALWAYS WALKED amoung us...
Even the discussion is just one more example of Americans today imagining themselves to be wiser than the genius that created our system. If you want to change it, there is a way: Constitutional Amendment. The problem cannot be fixed by yet another bandaid of laws or "legislating from the bench" that ultimately destroys the Bill of Rights and puts even more power in the hands of its true enemies.
Fitz
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
Luke 22:36.
"Followers of Christ, be armed."
Let us get the lines drawn clearly...shall we ?
Those are the laws we need and more than these restricts real rights of citizens.
Punish criminals with guns. No more. No less. Let citizens keep and bear arms so they can defend themselves, their families, their friends and their country without restrictions. That's the law of the land.
A background check does not work with phony identification and stolen identities. Why bother?
Defender
Private investigator licensed in AZ & CA that specializes in self defense cases.
To me there is no grey there, it's black and white.
81st FA BN WWII...Thanks Dad
U!S!A! ALL THE WAY!!
quote:
A background check does not work with phony identification and stolen identities. Why bother?
Possessing identification and an identity is a small burden on the honest and lawful citizen; at least in my past experience.
Having to obtain "phony identification and stolen identities" as least makes it just a little big harder for the criminals to obtain guns. And if those criminals do obtain guns by having and using such bogus credentials at least when they commit their crimes and are caught with those illegally obtained guns, then the vast, general public can take some comfort in the fact that the criminal didn't just go down to the local hardware and pickup that gun off the shelf,pay for it and walk out.
Regardless of federal or state constitutions, or right or wrong, or the intention of our country's founders, or what we minority of gun owners and even smaller minority of strong gun right supporters think, want or plan, if the large majority of America citizens ever decide that we should not have any guns at all, that is exactly what will happen to us.
either that or civil war over it and I want neither.
This is like finding out you have a cancer that is 99% treatable, only to find out you are that 1 %. Give the victim and everyone around them a gun, and it will no longer matter where the gun was obtained, because the perp will be dead.
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
Luke 22:36.
"Followers of Christ, be armed."
quote:
if the large majority of America citizens ever decide that we should not have any guns at all, that is exactly what will happen to us.
either that or civil war over it and I want neither.
[;)]
Those men got tired of being ground underfoot by pisants.
TrFox; We labor under a hundred times more indignities then they.
The founders didn't want one,either.
Those men got tired of being ground underfoot by pisants.
TrFox; We labor under a hundred times more indignities then they.
Yes, but we also have more ways and choices of how to get rid of some, most or perhaps all those "indignities" without civil war.
Yes quote:, but we also have more ways and choices of how to get rid of some, most or perhaps all those "indignities" without civil war.
TRFox;
I assume then that we shall see a dramatic turnaround in the immediate future then....hmmmm ??
The fact remains. Less then 3 % of the population is intelligent enough to even recognize there IS a problem...let alone "Getting involved in the political system"...Seems that most folks involved in the political system are SOCIALISTS...people only interested in controlling OTHER folks lives.
See..those that love freedom are not likely to be involved in politics..prefering to live their life as an individual. That of course leaves the field open to ego-driven hollow suits.
That is precisely WHY the Founders envisioned "Civilian Legistlators"..common folk drafted by their neighbors, sent to Washington for A term or two..then gratefully going back home to live under what few laws they passed...
ABRUPT..
TIMES CHANGE, PEOPLE CHANGE THEREFORE THE NATURAL BORN RIGHTS WE HAVE HAD WILL CHANGE.
shelly
Congratulations on accepting tyranny. Without a struggle, Without A WIMPER....
Lest you feel hurt by my statement..let me assure you...you are in the majority. Your views represent the bulk of the population.
One other point. The Founders..far wiser then you and I ..feared and despised Democracy.In other words....They knew better then trust the bulk of the people. They set up guidelines...so you compromisers would find it very difficult to run over other people desiring FREEDOM...a concept you do not grasp.
God,Guts,& GunsHave we lost all 3 ??
quote:
IF WE AS A SOCIETY COMBINED CAN NOT BE THE TYPE OF PEOPLE WE NEED TO BE , WE DESERVE TO LOSE SOME RIGHTS. FILLING OUT A LITTLE PIECE OF PAPER IS NOT A BIG DEAL.
This particular thought puts you in the same camp as the politicans, judges, pressure groups, etc. who have a very strange way of attempting to manage society. Since criminals refuse to obey the countless laws pass by the liberal, socialist left, that group has decided to devote its efforts to piling more and more laws on which only effect the already lawful; since the criminals by their very nature (their called "outlaws" for a reason) refuse to obey the law.
So in spite of your thought you expressed, it is not "we as a society" that is causing problems. It is the lawbreakers.
The vast majority of American ARE the "type of people we need to be". Most of the members here on GB.com ARE the "type of people we need to be", that is why we are government qualified to buy, own and use guns.
So if my thoughts are true, exactly why do the people and groups I named above not trust us and pile on more and more restrictions and laws that ONLY THE GOOD AND LAWFUL OBEY?
Surely you don't agree with more and more laws being piled on which are only obeyed by the already lawful? But your post which I quoted makes you sound like you do.
Please everyone remember that once you get the basic, effective laws in place, it only hampers the already lawful to pile on more and more laws. Surely no one believes that the violent criminal, preparing to go out on a night of violence and rampage against innocent citizens, stops and checks the law books so as to determine exactly what he can and cannot do or what weapons he can carry and use.
quote:
The fact remains. Less then 3 % of the population is intelligent enough to even recognize there IS a problem...let alone "Getting involved in the political system"...Seems that most folks involved in the political system are SOCIALISTS...people only interested in controlling OTHER folks lives.
See..those that love freedom are not likely to be involved in politics..prefering to live their life as an individual. That of course leaves the field open to ego-driven hollow suits.
That is precisely WHY the Founders envisioned "Civilian Legistlators"..common folk drafted by their neighbors, sent to Washington for A term or two..then gratefully going back home to live under what few laws they passed...
Gotta give Highball credit. Rarely have I read truer words or read the situation accurately summed up in only a couple of paragraphs.
shelly
I realized that I had become locked into a few phrases..trotted out to club anti-gunners with. Mostly they are not intelligent enough to require much more.....
Pro-gunner intelligent people..that are convinced that America needs SOME gun laws..are a different breed.The difference I see in those like you..Mr Fox...is that I believe you will be there in the event the unthinkable happens. The day the empty suits pass a gun ban...
Tr my friend...you and a couple others have forced me to dig deep..to actually think about the problems facing us.
I realized that I had become locked into a few phrases..trotted out to club anti-gunners with. Mostly they are not intelligent enough to require much more.....
Pro-gunner intelligent people..that are convinced that America needs SOME gun laws..are a different breed.The difference I see in those like you..Mr Fox...is that I believe you will be there in the event the unthinkable happens. The day the empty suits pass a gun ban...
[;)] I can only hope you are correct in that.
I don't support gun laws of any kind. From the 1790s-1920s there were no gun laws, and the country wasn't destroying itself. Now gun control runs rampant, and the areas with the most laws also have the most violent crime. If self defense is against the law, then the law abiding citizens will be defenseless. Simple as that.
quite a bit of logic and truth there.
Gunphreak and Highball, you guys are at the edge. You are just waiting for the moment to break out your full-autos and go to town on the "government". You think you are part of the 3% minority. In reality you are probably more likely part of the 0.00003% minority. That is about 9,000 people in our country. I'm talking about the folks that would actually give it all up, start killing cops and feds and let their families and homes go up in flames Waco-style.
I don't blame people of my generation for being apathetic of government and society, I think we all are. I blame them for being too lazy to get off their butts and get involved in their communities and governments to change it. Instead, they are happy to stuff themselves with fast food and watch cable TV all day. I think that is the real difference between our society now and the Revolutionary Times. I think people back then felt what it was like to be hungry, to see your children dying at birth, to see disease consume your friends and neighbors. When the Brits came in and started demanding MORE, I can see why that 33% snapped and decided they weren't gonna take it.
I don't see it today. I have never seen a truly starved person in my lifetime (in this country). Even the bums I see are all overweight. I think that our nation has moved into a period of submissive contentment, ala late Roman Empire.
Just my observation,
WW
"...That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state."
-The Debates in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Virginia, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution. June 27, 1788.
What do you think he's saying here, Highball??
Since I was pulled into this one, here is my thoughts on this line:
"If you actually think I am dragging my knuckles waiting for someone to come here, you're out of your damn mind. I would not be firing the first shot, or drawing first blood. The rest of that will be decided by them, not me."
And those people in Waco only wanted left alone. The fact that the seige on the Branch Davidians ended with the feds, under Janet Reno's instruction, used a banned incendiary to toast the compound should give you guys a little bit of what may occur, and what depths they are willing to stoop to to get away with them.
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
Luke 22:36.
"Followers of Christ, be armed."
I think his coddled generation is not used to men speaking their mind. Automatically, trained by fedgov propaganda camps, anyone that does..is an enemy of the state...fully expected to start shooting people just any day....he is a sterling example of successful brain washing.
Completely misses the oft-repeated statement..."Stand clear and allow those in power the rope to hang themselves with"...That, friend...will bring reality home to the present generation. By decent men standing clear..allowing the brain dead masses to be completely subjucated...there will come a time that "Hunger", "Fear", and the Iron Fist forge you into a man and American...or just another sheeple...fit only for sheering.
God,Guts,& GunsHave we lost all 3 ??
I'm talking about the folks that would actually give it all up, start killing cops and feds and let their families and homes go up in flames Waco-style.
Uhhh, the Davidians did not give it all up, and just let their families and homes go up in flames. THey tried to fight the beast off, but in the end, the beast had its way with them.
"Waiting tables is what you know, making cheese is what I know-lets stick with what we know!"
-Jimmy the cheese man
To clarify my original point, it is my observation that the two of you often speak of "the day when..." etc., etc. I take this to mean the day when people will rise up against the government (or the social norm, or whatever) and topple those in power to reform our nation in the vision of our Founding Fathers. This sounds like a cleansing process that both of you have come to the conclusion is the only way that the people will ever win back our rights from the government. I understand that you often say you will not take an active role in facilitating this revolution, but you do give the impression that you salivate at the actions of the gun-grabbers when they push us closer to this breaking point.
My observation is that this will basically never happen in our lifetime. As per Shelly's comments, I agree that the generation that is inheriting our nation is way to lazy and apathetic to ever instigate such an enlightened revolution. By today's standards, as long as folks get a Taco Bell within reasonable driving distance (where they can use food stamps) and can finance the purchase of a Sony Playstation with money they don't have, then these sheeple are willing to sit back in their relative calm and comfort and sacrifice whatever Constitutional rights they have left.
I will qualify this by saying that this could change by the actions of an external force (nuclear terrorist attack, etc.) where we really WOULD have people starving in the streets. But I question how realistic a possibility that is.
Just my fedgov brainwashed opinion,
[:D]
WW
"...That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state."
-The Debates in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Virginia, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution. June 27, 1788.
shelly
Since you are a relatively new member, I'd like to know where you stand. Do you propose limits on the kinds of firearms individuals can own, or just limits on the type of (irresponsible) citizens who can own them?
I think that at very least people should be able to own full autos, as since 1934 only two crimes have been commited with a legally obtained full auto. I don't believe a crime has ever been commited with a legally owned rocket launcher or other Class III item.
Just like to know where the "new" members stand, so I can get a feeling as to how they think.
Admininstrator Pickenup gets a big fat raise if he can get the body count up here on the Gunrights side, so please help [:o)][:o)]