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The Truths
WoundedWolf
Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have boiled down some basic beliefs that I have formed regarding gun rights that I have called "The Truths". I would appreciate hearing all of your opinions about them and if you have any more "truths" that you have discovered.
The Truths:
- Guns don't kill people, people kill people. In the hands of a criminal or murderer, a single shot .22 rifle can be equally as dangerous as a fully-automatic machinegun. Therefore it is a myth that some guns are "more dangerous" than others, there are only "more dangerous" people.
- We must assume that people are innocent until proven guilty. We cannot treat people like criminals by prohibiting them access to certain items or activities when they have shown no history or intention of breaking the law. Therefore we must trust that people have good intentions unless they have shown evidence otherwise.
- Criminals inherently do not follow the law. Therefore gun laws will only infringe upon the rights of the law-abiding citizens and will not hinder criminals at all.
- Responsibility cannot be legislated. Careless and irresponsible people inherently do not follow rules and regulations. Therefore laws requiring the use of trigger locks, gun safes, etc., will not reduce the number of accidents, injuries, or deaths that are caused by careless or irresponsible actions.
MOΛΩN ΛABE
"If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced Patriots to prevent its ruin."
-Samuel Adams, Patriot/Brewer
The Truths:
- Guns don't kill people, people kill people. In the hands of a criminal or murderer, a single shot .22 rifle can be equally as dangerous as a fully-automatic machinegun. Therefore it is a myth that some guns are "more dangerous" than others, there are only "more dangerous" people.
- We must assume that people are innocent until proven guilty. We cannot treat people like criminals by prohibiting them access to certain items or activities when they have shown no history or intention of breaking the law. Therefore we must trust that people have good intentions unless they have shown evidence otherwise.
- Criminals inherently do not follow the law. Therefore gun laws will only infringe upon the rights of the law-abiding citizens and will not hinder criminals at all.
- Responsibility cannot be legislated. Careless and irresponsible people inherently do not follow rules and regulations. Therefore laws requiring the use of trigger locks, gun safes, etc., will not reduce the number of accidents, injuries, or deaths that are caused by careless or irresponsible actions.
MOΛΩN ΛABE
"If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced Patriots to prevent its ruin."-Samuel Adams, Patriot/Brewer
Comments
quote:Originally posted by WoundedWolf
I have boiled down some basic beliefs that I have formed regarding gun rights that I have called "The Truths". I would appreciate hearing all of your opinions about them and if you have any more "truths" that you have discovered.
The Truths:
- Guns don't kill people, people kill people. In the hands of a criminal or murderer, a single shot .22 rifle can be equally as dangerous as a fully-automatic machinegun. Therefore it is a myth that some guns are "more dangerous" than others, there are only "more dangerous" people.
Maybe so, but if there were no guns then the bad people wouldn't be able to kill people.
- We must assume that people are innocent until proven guilty. We cannot treat people like criminals by prohibiting them access to certain items or activities when they have shown no history or intention of breaking the law. Therefore we must trust that people have good intentions unless they have shown evidence otherwise.
What about a guy who is always in trouble but never gets covicted of anything major, we know it's just a matter of time before HE does the unthinkable ande kills someone.
- Criminals inherently do not follow the law. Therefore gun laws will only infringe upon the rights of the law-abiding citizens and will not hinder criminals at all.
Well what if penalties for using a gun during a crime were increased to an additional 25 years in prison?
- Responsibility cannot be legislated. Careless and irresponsible people inherently do not follow rules and regulations. Therefore laws requiring the use of trigger locks, gun safes, etc., will not reduce the number of accidents, injuries, or deaths that are caused by careless or irresponsible actions.
But people prove everyday that they are irresponsible, just watch the evening news.
MOEUN EABE
-Samuel Adams, Patriot/Brewer
I wanted to get those objections out there first, that way at least they came from us showing that we are aware of the flip side. And to these comments you say what, WW.
There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
I'll give it my best shot...
quote:- Guns don't kill people, people kill people. In the hands of a criminal or murderer, a single shot .22 rifle can be equally as dangerous as a fully-automatic machinegun. Therefore it is a myth that some guns are "more dangerous" than others, there are only "more dangerous" people.
Maybe so, but if there were no guns then the bad people wouldn't be able to kill people.
I think part of my rebuttal would be the other truth that criminals inherently don't obey the law. But, even if we were able to magically cause all firearms to disappear from existance, we have to understand that it is the person that is dangerous, not the weapon. A murderer will use a knife, sword, stick, club, wrench, or their bare hands to commit their crime. Where there is a will there is a way. So therefore, removing the tool does not remove the root cause of the problem and only inhibits those who would lawfully use those tools.
quote:- We must assume that people are innocent until proven guilty. We cannot treat people like criminals by prohibiting them access to certain items or activities when they have shown no history or intention of breaking the law. Therefore we must trust that people have good intentions unless they have shown evidence otherwise.
What about a guy who is always in trouble but never gets covicted of anything major, we know it's just a matter of time before HE does the unthinkable ande kills someone.
Well, if he shows a history of crime then maybe we do need to take a closer look, but if he just has a bunch of parking tickets then I don't think we can make that judgement. If he has never been convicted of anything then there isn't much we can do except hope that all the people around him are armed when he decides to make his move.
quote:- Criminals inherently do not follow the law. Therefore gun laws will only infringe upon the rights of the law-abiding citizens and will not hinder criminals at all.
Well what if penalties for using a gun during a crime were increased to an additional 25 years in prison?
If they are commiting a crime in the first place then it doesn't really matter to me if they are using a gun or not. I suppose an armed robbery may be more severe than an unarmed robbery, but I would consider robbery in general to be a pretty severe crime. I guess I don't really have an opinion either way as far as the increased punishments, but I don't really see where it is in conflict with the original statement.
quote:- Responsibility cannot be legislated. Careless and irresponsible people inherently do not follow rules and regulations. Therefore laws requiring the use of trigger locks, gun safes, etc., will not reduce the number of accidents, injuries, or deaths that are caused by careless or irresponsible actions.
But people prove everyday that they are irresponsible, just watch the evening news.
I think this basically proves the point. Despite all the laws and regulations we have, some people are just morons and always will be morons.
So, Comengetit, how do you feel about these statements from a non-"devil's advocate" point of view? I would like to hear if you got any nuggets of truth that you care to share too. [:D]
-WW
MOΛΩN ΛABE
-Samuel Adams, Patriot/Brewer
All you ever hear on TV is if all the gun laws disappeared then it would turn into the wild west.
But that's what they were saying about Florida's law and it hasn't happened.
The duty to preserve one's self ought never be denied.
Thanks for playing along, Comengetit [;)]
I'll give it my best shot...
quote:- Guns don't kill people, people kill people. In the hands of a criminal or murderer, a single shot .22 rifle can be equally as dangerous as a fully-automatic machinegun. Therefore it is a myth that some guns are "more dangerous" than others, there are only "more dangerous" people.
Maybe so, but if there were no guns then the bad people wouldn't be able to kill people.
I think part of my rebuttal would be the other truth that criminals inherently don't obey the law. But, even if we were able to magically cause all firearms to disappear from existance, we have to understand that it is the person that is dangerous, not the weapon. A murderer will use a knife, sword, stick, club, wrench, or their bare hands to commit their crime. Where there is a will there is a way. So therefore, removing the tool does not remove the root cause of the problem and only inhibits those who would lawfully use those tools. This is a more than reasonable response.
quote:- We must assume that people are innocent until proven guilty. We cannot treat people like criminals by prohibiting them access to certain items or activities when they have shown no history or intention of breaking the law. Therefore we must trust that people have good intentions unless they have shown evidence otherwise.
What about a guy who is always in trouble but never gets covicted of anything major, we know it's just a matter of time before HE does the unthinkable ande kills someone.
Well, if he shows a history of crime then maybe we do need to take a closer look, but if he just has a bunch of parking tickets then I don't think we can make that judgement. If he has never been convicted of anything then there isn't much we can do except hope that all the people around him are armed when he decides to make his move. How about, since he is such a hardened criminal and seems to be very lucky, he will find a way to get a gun anyway. Even if he has to make it. It's the criminals who have all of the illegal weapons anyway, the only defense we have against them is our own weapons.
quote:- Criminals inherently do not follow the law. Therefore gun laws will only infringe upon the rights of the law-abiding citizens and will not hinder criminals at all.
Well what if penalties for using a gun during a crime were increased to an additional 25 years in prison?
If they are commiting a crime in the first place then it doesn't really matter to me if they are using a gun or not. I suppose an armed robbery may be more severe than an unarmed robbery, but I would consider robbery in general to be a pretty severe crime. I guess I don't really have an opinion either way as far as the increased punishments, but I don't really see where it is in conflict with the original statement. This was kind of a trick, it contradicts itself. Criminals are criminals, they're going to use a gun regardless of the penalty. If they cared they would never comit crimes.
quote:- Responsibility cannot be legislated. Careless and irresponsible people inherently do not follow rules and regulations. Therefore laws requiring the use of trigger locks, gun safes, etc., will not reduce the number of accidents, injuries, or deaths that are caused by careless or irresponsible actions.
But people prove everyday that they are irresponsible, just watch the evening news.
I think this basically proves the point. Despite all the laws and regulations we have, some people are just morons and always will be morons. Exactly!
So, Comengetit, how do you feel about these statements from a non-"devil's advocate" point of view? I would like to hear if you got any nuggets of truth that you care to share too. [:D]
-WW
MOEUN EABE
-Samuel Adams, Patriot/Brewer
Well let's see.
- By disarming the public you are not helping victims, you are creating them.
- The fraction of the U.S. population that are dangerous criminals are dangerous because of circumstances in their lives. They are desperate and will stop at nothing to get what they want.
- During the experimental Assault weapons ban crime did not decrease in a dramatic. It did continue it's downward trende but at the same rate as before the ban.
- We are banning things in this country because of the way they look?!! This is ludicrus, maybe something may look "meaner" than something else, does that make it any more deadly?
- I have yet to hear one solid argument in favor of gun control, it's the same old song and dance every time and then those that would take your defenses away from you resort to the only tactic that has worked for them. Instilling a false sense of fear into people as a means of gaining their support. This just doesn't make sense, if gun control is a good thing why must they resort to lies and fabrications in order to gather support for their crusade.
- Let's face it, the old addiage holds true, "Guns don't kill people, bullets do.....just kidding....people do."
How's that WW? Kind of repeated a couple of your's in a way, but worded differently.
There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
Gentlemen...I would love to enter this conversation. However...you guys have been doing such an excellent job of setting up straw men..then burning them to the ground...I cannot add a thing.
Congratulations for the fascinating glimpse of rationality and common sense. There would be no need of people like me if such logic was applied across the board.
At least..no need for me to be so nasty.
Let me at-em..[:(!]..Let me at-em..[:(!]
quote:Criminals inherently do not follow the law. Therefore gun laws will only infringe upon the rights of the law-abiding citizens and will not hinder criminals at all.
Truer words were never spoken.
The gene pool needs chlorine.