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Why gun owners need to work within the system

DefenderDefender Member Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
Why gun owners need to work within the system.

Spreading our anger over the theft of the Second Amendment does little other than to bring comfort to the gun rights-haters.

We are not going to go to war over our gun rights. As much as some of us want that, it's not going to happen. Just look at the record to prove this. They've backed gun owners into corners with gun bans in New York, Chicago, Washington DC without little more than a slight whimper.

When we make too much noise over our rights we are branded as terrorists. At best, those, "angry White men". We can be heard much better without being offensive or threatening.

When it comes to PR, too often our enemies run rings around us in style and effectiveness. Too many gun owners are not well educated nor well spoken enough to convince anyone of anything. When I lobbied over a 14 year period at the Arizona Legislature on the concealed weapon issue I had to fight with our own people over not frightening the members of the Legislature by wearing camo outfits and dirty t-shirts. Too many needed haircuts and a serious shave too. Yes and some needed a bath. Too many dressed like they were at some gun show. They were all demanding to be heard on gun bills but had no skills to win friends in the Legislature. While well meaning, they spoke with ignorance and poor English. The tone is almost always angry.

The hollowest threat you can ever make to a politician is telling him or her you're going to run them out of office if they don't vote our way. The politicians thrive on contests and will not be frightened by those threats. As for threats of harm, that proves their point that gun owners are dangerous.

Dressing and behaving well is a must in such high profile places under media surveillance such as legislative and city council meetings. Humor should replace insults whenever possible.

I remember when that PBS show FRONTLINE did (mid 1980s) the first fair media report I ever saw on the gun control issue. The anchor was the late beauty, Jessica Savaich. She put a tough question to my friend, trainer and author, Massad Ayoob. The question was, "Should a man who beats his wife be allowed to own a gun?" Mas thought for a second and fired back, "Any man who beats his wife should not be allowed to have a wife." That turned an ugly scene into one of humor. Nobody dared suggest that Mas was somehow wrong either. That answer also changed the focus of the problem from the gun to the violent person, which we all need to learn how to do.

Our best victories like in the area of concealed carry were really won by our gentler women folk like past NRA President Marian Hammer who opened the floodgates for us over a decade ago by her campaign in Florida.

Today the NRA President is again a woman, Sandy Froman. Sandy has everything that Marian Hammer has. I've known Sandy for some twenty years and she's a wonderful speaker and long time lawyer. Sometimes the gentle voice of a woman is so much louder that that of men.

The Second Amendment was the product of some very wise men. We all need to learn to properly express why they gave us the right to keep and bear arms. We need to learn how to win over the elected people to our way of thinking through a positive means. We need to learn how to pick up the phone or write letters to the people who were elected to represent us. This is the right way and also the only effective way to keep what rights we have left and perhaps gain some ground.


Defender
Private investigator licensed in AZ & CA that specializes in self defense cases.

Comments

  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Great post. I'm going to copy it over to the general discussion forum if you don't object.

    f2520l.jpg
  • DefenderDefender Member Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    By my guest Fox.

    Defender
    Private investigator licensed in AZ & CA that specializes in self defense cases.
  • DefenderDefender Member Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I did not copyright my blog. Feel free to pass it around to anyone at all.

    Defender
    Private investigator licensed in AZ & CA that specializes in self defense cases.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Indeed a grand and glorious post, Defender.

    Almost brings a tear to my eye...and would, I guess, except I have heard one version or another just like it from the NRA for 40 years.

    Over that 40 years we have been beaten again and again over basic rights..using the tactics you describe.
    Please continue to employ your plan. That way...you can proclaim 'victory' as you 'win' Concealed Carry, for example..you know, that is where one takes a Right...and makes it a Privledge...and adds the dignity of crawling on ones' belly holding wads of cash to get it.

    Yor know, Defender...you have nearly convinced me that the entire nation is nothing but cowards...unwilling to fight for freedom.
  • codenamepaulcodenamepaul Member Posts: 2,931
    edited November -1
    I would agree Defender, as well. The point you miss (or choose to ignore) is that eventually, there will come a time when the talk is over. The NRA will have compromised the last of our rights away(and I am a supporting member)and there is nothing left to talk about. I support as many pro-gun organizations as I can afford. I would volunteer time as well, but I'm too busy working. So they get the fruit of my labor.

    I gotta go with Highball to some degree and say it is long past time to try to stem the unstoppable tide. It is time to support the enemy so they make the BIG move and maybe, just maybe, there will be enough support to win the day and finally bury this issue once and for all. May it happen in my day so my children will have peace.

    When the meekest of men raise their fist at you in defiance, you have lost. It is just a matter then of admitting it to yourself.
  • DefenderDefender Member Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Highball and codenamepaul, we all want the same thing. You've recognized something we all know. People, including gun owners are cowards and sheep. There's nothing we can do about that either.

    Every couple of hundred years or so people do rise up against bad government, fight for freedom and they revolt. The trouble is I don't have that kind of time left here on Earth to wait for that to happen.

    I submit for YOU to give me a better plan for gun owners than what I've offered. Maybe you're smarter that I and can do just that. I will read anything you post. I'm willing to learn anything new.

    The entire Bill of Rights has been watered down to,not much at all by worthless judges. It's a real problem because I don't see Americans growing backbones anytime soon.

    Defender
    Private investigator licensed in AZ & CA that specializes in self defense cases.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    I have offered my solution many times.

    Withdraw from the political arena..they only use us to gauge how hard to push for new controls.

    With the voices of reason withdrawn, the Socialist/Fascist combine will rapidly create a hell in America that NO decent American can possibly live under.
    Allow the hollow little men their brief moment of glory.

    It is NOT rolling the dice..there are decent Americans left out here in this grand country of ours..enough to carry the day.

    Better that...then the long slide into darkness orchastrated by the compromisers in conjunction with their fellow travelers..the Socialists/Fascists running this country.
  • codenamepaulcodenamepaul Member Posts: 2,931
    edited November -1
    Read Enemies, Foreign and Domestic.

    This is a better plan.
    A sacrificing young man, disappointed with things, takes a rifle and guns down a number of prominent politicians. Other scared prominent politicians call for the outlawing of all other firearms. The ball is now rolling. Fill in the rest as you like. Not the story of the above book, it is a good read though.

    When the meekest of men raise their fist at you in defiance, you have lost. It is just a matter then of admitting it to yourself.
  • DefenderDefender Member Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    codenamepaul I'm not sure I follow or understand your post.

    Highball your solution sounds workable like any pipe dream. Where are you going to find this avenging angel? When you find him please him send him to Chicago, NY and Washington DC. Gun owners there need help really bad and they've needed it for a very long time.

    If this some kind of a joke? The people who have stolen our rights have escaped the punishment they deserved for nearly 40 years. This is just not going to happen...

    I understand and respect your anger. I have anger too. But my road is going to be the high road deal with this fight.

    Defender
    Private investigator licensed in AZ & CA that specializes in self defense cases.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Any move like that will creat a back lash that would sweep decent gun-owners off the face of the earth.

    Decent men would be unable to organize..because of the offensive nature of the first strike...and the 'wrongness' of it. Call it the 'Duke' syndrome...

    The offensive strikes MUST come from the enemy..either by law, or actual gun sweeps.
  • pickenuppickenup Member Posts: 22,845 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Defender
    Why gun owners need to work within the system.
    What if "the system" is corrupt, broken beyond repair?


    quote:Originally posted by Defender
    We are not going to go to war over our gun rights. As much as some of us want that
    Agreed, there will be no war. But please show me where anyone here WANTS to go to war. Some may see it as the only viable alternative. But again, show me where anyone WANTS it.


    quote:Originally posted by Defender
    We need to learn how to pick up the phone or write letters to the people who were elected to represent us
    Again I agree. Imagine the impact of (not even ALL gun owners) just the members concerned enough to belong to any of the pro-gun organizations. Phone calls are good, but letters are better. Letters are permanent, something tangible, they take up space. Imagine MILLIONS and MILLIONS of letters delivered to Washington.
    Do you have a concept of how many one million is? Multiply that by......

    It would only cost each member a little time, a piece of paper, an envelope, and $.37 (soon to be $.39 [;)])
    WHAT AN IMPACT we could have. But alas, it will never happen. [:(]
    We can't even get some of the members, here on these forums, to get involved.

    The gene pool needs chlorine.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Defender;
    "Avenging Angel" ?...where did I mention any such ?

    So go ahead. Work within the system. Congratulations.

    Know then that you are contributing to the demise of the greatest country on earth. Know that you are doing EXACTLY what your masters laid out for you...ever since they sized control of the Republic..and made your vote irrelevent.

    Know that the decline and fall of America is riding on the shoulders of those continuing to support the system..the system that you think is right and just...because you think that system is what the propaganda says it is.
  • codenamepaulcodenamepaul Member Posts: 2,931
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Highball
    Any move like that will creat a back lash that would sweep decent gun-owners off the face of the earth.

    Decent men would be unable to organize..because of the offensive nature of the first strike...and the 'wrongness' of it. Call it the 'Duke' syndrome...

    The offensive strikes MUST come from the enemy..either by law, or actual gun sweeps.


    Agreed, that is why in the book, it is set up as a gun nut. The set-up was by the ATF

    When the meekest of men raise their fist at you in defiance, you have lost. It is just a matter then of admitting it to yourself.
  • DefenderDefender Member Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by pickenup
    quote:Originally posted by Defender
    Why gun owners need to work within the system.
    What if "the system" is corrupt, broken beyond repair?


    quote:Originally posted by Defender
    We are not going to go to war over our gun rights. As much as some of us want that
    Agreed, there will be no war. But please show me where anyone here WANTS to go to war. Some may see it as the only viable alternative. But again, show me where anyone WANTS it.


    quote:Originally posted by Defender
    We need to learn how to pick up the phone or write letters to the people who were elected to represent us
    Again I agree. Imagine the impact of (not even ALL gun owners) just the members concerned enough to belong to any of the pro-gun organizations. Phone calls are good, but letters are better. Letters are permanent, something tangible, they take up space. Imagine MILLIONS and MILLIONS of letters delivered to Washington.
    Do you have a concept of how many one million is? Multiply that by......

    It would only cost each member a little time, a piece of paper, an envelope, and $.37 (soon to be $.39 [;)])
    WHAT AN IMPACT we could have. But alas, it will never happen. [:(]
    We can't even get some of the members, here on these forums, to get involved.

    The gene pool needs chlorine.


    Can you imagine how great it would be if every time there was a new gun law in a legislative hopper there would be so many phone calls that they could not even do any business? Watching their fax machines get tied in knots would be a dream come true. But no, we've got tough talkers that do nothing at all.

    If you can't get gun owners to write a letter now and then how can you get them to take even stronger "tough guy" measures to reclaim our rights?

    All this tough talk but no action does not mean much to me. I see more infighting between gun owners than real fighting for our rights. Save the combat for the politicians not the NRA.

    When the jack-booted government thugs come for our guns it will be the "tough talkers" that turn theirs over first. Talk is always cheaper than action...

    Defender
    Private investigator licensed in AZ & CA that specializes in self defense cases.
  • WoundedWolfWoundedWolf Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:The offensive strikes MUST come from the enemy..either by law, or actual gun sweeps.

    The problem here is that the enemy is clever. If they see that they are pushing too hard then they know to back off. Their weapon is incrementalism. They know if they continue the gradual drift over years and years then they will win by attrition. They already control the media and the educational system. With each passing generation their brainwashing campaign becomes more complete. All they need to do is wait us out. In fact, most of the younger generation doesn't even realize that there is a "plan". They have never known any different. To them, our Socialist government is the natural state of affairs.

    I think we perhaps have 50 years before the idea of private gun ownership will become too taboo to ever recover from the Socialist onslaught. I will be 80 then, and probably dead. Remember, I'm one of the youngsters on this forum. [;)]

    -Wolf

    wwsm.GIF
    MOLON LABE




    The Second Amendment begins when the First Amendment ends.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    WW;
    EXACTLY MY POINT.. quote:The problem here is that the enemy is clever. If they see that they are pushing too hard then they know to back off. Their weapon is incrementalism. They know if they continue the gradual drift over years and years then they will win by attrition Do you get the drift as to WHY I say the NRA is working FOR the enemies of freedom ?

    The 'drift' is NOT...it is a steadily driven sword thrust into the heart of freedom by the Elites...and those that compromise away rights are AIDING AND ABETING these evil meanies. Unwittingly, perhaps, at the street level...but those on top know WHAT THEY ARE DOING...
    Defender;
    Think what you like about "Tough guy talk". Nice rhetoric.... I find that those that reach instinctively for such rhetoric are fully aware that they will be the first to line up to turn in their guns...they don't even have the moral courage to speak out about tyranny in plain language that anyone can understand..and sure as hell don't have the courage to talk about how the Founders settled THEIR brand of tyranny.

    Keep working diligently "Within the system"...ensure that your children never get to enjoy even ONE day of freedom such as you enjoyed prior to 1968....Keep compromising, friend...THAT is the way to ensure security for you and yours...

    Want my help to "Fight gun control"..??? THEN START FIGHTING GUN CONTROL. Adopt an ABSOLUTE NO COMPROMISE STANCE. Better to go down fighting...then hacked to death by a thousand cuts.
  • DefenderDefender Member Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I never said compromise! We get what they give us and that's not much. But I still demand more and won't stop until we have a full Second Amendment again.

    So what are you tough guys doing to win our freedom back? Nothing at at all. That's just what the gun rights-haters want, for you to do nothing. They win without lifting a finger.

    Telling everyone you're angry has really frightened Komrades Schumer & Swinestein into submission.

    You have no plan, no ability to form one, let alone carry it out.



    Defender
    Private investigator licensed in AZ & CA that specializes in self defense cases.
  • KYfatboyKYfatboy Member Posts: 859 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I understand what defender is saying, and agree to some extent. When we give off the persona of dressing in camoflauge, and toteing Ak's with us into the legislature, we don't win any friends. While the second amendment to me states it all pretty clearly, to those who don't understand it, we need to put forth A little more spit, and shine, and try not to scare them.

    Traveling from the west, unto the east. Insearch of that which was lost, but with my endavors, and his assistance, I am hopeful, of finding.
  • WoundedWolfWoundedWolf Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I knew I was having deja vu:

    http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=112386

    wwsm.GIF
    MOLON LABE




    The Second Amendment begins when the First Amendment ends.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    quote:You have no plan, no ability to form one, let alone carry it out.
    I have, indeed, no plans to;
    Send money to ANY group "Fighting for gun rights" ;
    Crawl on my belly, begging for my rights; No letters,no faxes, no nothing..
    Brag loudly of 'sucess' over gaining CCW ;
    Pretend I live in a 'free country' ;

    I am going to watch with great sadness as you and your NRA buddies consign America to a thousand years of darkness..as you aid the enemies of freedom in slowing gun control just enough so that the over 50 crowd dies off or gets too old to fight.
    Most of you haven't taught your children what freedom means...and they will buy off on whatever the government tells them to.

    I wish you a LONG life...so you can personally see what your policies have wrought.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Well, when the dust settles and all is said and done AFTER we gun owners go to war with our own government, many here may feel kinda foolish. Because when that "revolution" starts, it won't just be us good and honest second amendment supporters fighting against our unresponsive government. The battle will also draw several other armed and powerful groups into the "revolution". Such groups as the militant Muslims, Large city racial gangs, illegal Mexican criminal groups here in the USA, organizaed crime, the military from various countries that hate us anyway, etc. So when the "revolution" is fought and is over, it may be difficult to determine just who did the winning of that battle and just who should "rebuild" own and control the "new and better America" so many here seem to think will just automatically be rebuilt.

    You might find yourself really and truly enslaved or even find you don't even have a country to call your own anymore.

    The founders of this country worked, struggled, sacrificed, were imprisoned and even were killed because they gave you this country and the freedom to run it as you see fit. Anybody advocating just going to civil war and throwing that away does not value what those good and brave men and women did for us.

    Sure, we don't like the way this country is being run. But you know that the mechanism for changing the way this country is run is still in place and available to all of us.

    WE MERELY NEED TO WORK HARDER!

    f2520l.jpg
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    tR, my friend....may I suggest something...?

    These groups you mention.. quote:Such groups as the militant Muslims, Large city racial gangs, illegal Mexican criminal groups here in the USA, organizaed crime, the military from various countries that hate us anyway, etc. So
    Exist in this country because they serve the purpose of the government. They are protected and coddled by this government.

    Given, as you say, a 'revolution'..the shooting starts, in other words...there is a tremendous built up animosity in the hearts of the decent people of this great country towards the predators walking our streets...turned loose again and again by the failed justice system..towards the foreign gangs carving out their turf in American blood..
    I believe that those groups you mention would hold rein for about 30 moments.....and if the military did their duty...those other countries you mentioned will quake in their boots..fearing that a REAL leader enters office and cuts their welfare check....
  • ComengetitComengetit Member Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Couldn't possibly let this topic go by without chiming in. The problem is, I have no idea what to say. I see both pro's and con's in both schools of thought. Although I lean towards the taking back of our country by brute physical force, I don't really look forward to the hell that will become America for the 20 years during and after the revolution. It won't be a long battle in the trenches, it will be kill one here, two there. Not a traditional battlefield as the days of that type of warfare are long gone, you can thank our own military for that. We left the rest of the world no choice.

    As for the way of the pen, sure, it has it's attractive sides, namely not being shot at, but we have been doing this for 72 years to no avail. Why does anyone think we can change it, history says otherwise. History also says we WILL be forced to a revolt that will top all revolts ever fought in the history of the world. Do I WANT that? Hell no, I don't want that, but what choice will we have? I still write about twenty letters a week and will continue to do so, what I fear is the time will come when the way of the gun will be the only way and we will be so caught up in fighting the politically correct way that we miss our window of opportunity to wage an all encompassing revolt. I can see most of the people dumbed down to the point of apathy, as long as they still have 'theirs' they won't care.

    These dumb-* don't have a clue what is happening to them directly. I mean they are being negatively affected every day by these political yo-yo's that have nothing more than their own wealth and prominance in power at heart and the masses think all is well. They talk about losing their Social Security benefits as if there was still an optional outcome to the ultimate fate of SS, there is not. When the government places a gag order on all political propaganda within 60 days of an election the people say, "yeah, I can see that" or "So what, I'd rather not here their slurs anyway" not having the slightest clue that this is the first amendment being attacked, hell they don't even see it when a book is banned. UNBELIEVABLE.

    My opinion, keep doing what you do but watch for the golden BB because it will come looking for us and we had better be ready to respond or absolutely all is lost, everything!


    upsdFlag.gif
    There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
  • DefenderDefender Member Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    There can be no question that our gun rights are in a mess. There's no quick fix in sight. The only road for gun owners is the high road. Let's learn to practice good PR and convert the non-bleivers one at a time.

    Defender
    Private investigator licensed in AZ & CA that specializes in self defense cases.
  • dsmithdsmith Member Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    We can't win by merely begging the politicians as highball puts it. The only way we can win is if we get enough people to wake up and see how important our gun rights are.
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