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Wow the wolf comes out and shows his teeth. Very nice. I can only speak for myself but my feeling of the need for speed is in an effort to circumvent anymore laws that these political hacks wish to put upon us. I know Highball is sitting back wringing his hands because the inevitable seems to be coming at a far greater pace than expected. Although I speak much about legislation and the Supreme Court, I realize it is only wishful thinking, so I went and bought another 2,000 .308 rounds and 1,000 .223's. I've got all the body armor I may need, gas masks, chemical suit, ghillie suit, and guns. I'm good to go, someone tell me when it's time to turn it all loose.
There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
The Mid-term elections referred to.. resounding losses for the Repubs.
Couldd it possibly be because the center people..those actually believing in the Constitution..are plenty pissed at at a party determined to outdo the perverted Democrats in destroying this country ?
Possibly people are troubled at our "War and Security" president..allowing the borders to remain open, conducting a war on private citizens via the "Patriot Act"...
Looks like he is paving the way for Hilliary.
quote:Originally posted by Comengetit
Wow the wolf comes out and shows his teeth. Very nice. I can only speak for myself but my feeling of the need for speed is in an effort to circumvent anymore laws that these political hacks wish to put upon us. I know Highball is sitting back wringing his hands because the inevitable seems to be coming at a far greater pace than expected. Although I speak much about legislation and the Supreme Court, I realize it is only wishful thinking, so I went and bought another 2,000 .308 rounds and 1,000 .223's. I've got all the body armor I may need, gas masks, chemical suit, ghillie suit, and guns. I'm good to go, someone tell me when it's time to turn it all loose.
There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
If you move to Iraq and live for awhile you can experience first hand what it is you seem to be wishing for. Even if it turns out that what you find there is what you truly want to happen, you should still think of your loved ones (parents, brothers, sisters, present or future children) that do not want it to happen.
As evidenced by the successful NRA/2nd Amendment Foundatation lawsuit file in Louisana, which not only stopped but reversed probably the largest government gun confiscation in the last 100 years, we can prevail throught the courts and the ballot box. No need in sight to destroy our country yet.
""The campaign received an additional boost when the San Francisco Police Officers Association condemned the gun ban, declaring it would "nullify the personal choice of city residents to lawfully possess a handgun for self-defense purposes." ""
How many San Francisco folk held a CCW there? 1? Diane Feinstein?
How about instead of us 4 million gun owners that are NRA members and give the NRA over $140 Million annually justed banded together and took over Canada. They only have 60,000 in their military. We could take their country and start anew but this time our Constitution will say in bold letters...THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO BARE ARMS WILL NOT BE INFRINGED.
Anyone think the US would step in and prevent us citizens from taking over Canada?
Fox- The last thing in this world I want is to have to go to war with my countrymen, the U.S. Government, but if forced to by the ever tightening grip of a totalitarian government with pent up desires of world domination, I would kind of like to be prepared. The very reason I will do this is BECAUSE of my family, I do not want the little ones to grow up in a world such as this and especially not the country they are inheriting. I truly wish that we could legislate and vote all of the evils away, I'm affraid the time for that has passed and we have failed. Is it possible for us to still do just that? I certainly would like to think so but history tells me we are fully embroiled in a governmental plot towards total superiority. Those in other countries around the world that are members of the United Nations, don't be fooled, this government doesn't have any desire to share the responsibilities and rewards of a new world order. No sir, they want it all.
If you take the time to do some reading, some real reading, you will be enlightened as to what our government has been doing TO us since March 9th, 1933. Nearly every move they have made of any real substance has tightened their reign over the people or the office of "person."
What was it about 1933 that caused our entire country to change from a land of sovereign individuals to enslaved subjects. Did you know; this country had a national debt of $100,000,000,000 that was backed by $4,000,000,000 in gold and that this country was forced to declare bankruptcy, we have been in chapter 11 ever since. FDR signed an executive order outlawing the private ownership of gold. WHAT? Did you also know that we are not under common law any longer, we are under law of Admiralty. If you don't think you are a slave you are in for the disappointment of a lifetime. I know, I know, I'm some kind of wacko, well I can assure you that I am neither a wacko nor am I a conspiracy theorist. These are facts that I use to come to my conclusions and I am far from alone. If I had just one wish, that would be that ALL Americans read about these heinous crimes against our liberties and do so with an open mind. I think they will be shocked as to what their mind will expose them to when allowed to do so.
There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
I agree that the federal government over the decades has lied, cheated, and tricked the American Citizens. I also believe that against all the wishes of our country's founders, the federal government has grown much, much larger than it needs to be, takes from us more than it gives, doesn't appreciate the citizens nor gives the citizens the respect they are due, and the government has excessively expanded its power while at the same time excessively limiting the rights of citizens.
But all this has not come at the hands of one or two lifetime dicators. It has come at the hands of various elected presidents , congress people and appointed managers/directors. What I have just described is NOT some static, unchangeable trip to total government enslavement of the American people. Instead, what I have described is a mallable, changeable (if we want it bad enough) journey by our government that can be changed at the ballot box. But we believers in constitutional law aren't doing nearly as good a job causing that change as we could.
Poster Red223 I believe, posted above that we pro-gun, pro-constitutional people should ban together and take over Canada.
Why don't we just ban together and re-take over our own country and government? Peacefully.
"If I had just one wish, that would be that ALL Americans read about these heinous crimes against our liberties and do so with an open mind. I think they will be shocked as to what their mind will expose them to when allowed to do so."
Why do you think I suggested the information site???? There are people out here than will read the information, get angry, then cut and paste it to an email.
"If I had just one wish, that would be that ALL Americans read about these heinous crimes against our liberties and do so with an open mind. I think they will be shocked as to what their mind will expose them to when allowed to do so."
Why do you think I suggested the information site???? There are people out here than will read the information, get angry, then cut and paste it to an email.
The information site was a great idea, I just know how these folks are. The ones that occassionally come over to this board already know, the others won't take the time to read any of it. It's a damn shame but who'll be the ones complaining the loudest when the SHTF? The uninformed.
There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
I believe that if bush had striven for a Constitutional approach to leading this country...he could have increased his position.
However...he out-Democrated the perverted Democrats...and the decent people decided to stay home.
Once again..let me assure everyone that I am not a bloodthirsty barbarian, DEAMING of civil war. I wish that Fox's method would work.I pray EVERY DAY....that SOME leader steps up to National prominence with the message of Constitutional Law being the Law of the Land..and tens of thousands of "color of law" 'laws' have beem passed. I have NO WISH to be gunned down in the streets because I BELIEVE WITH ALL MY HEART we live under tyranny....NOR do I wish it for our wives, sweethearts, or children.
I merely believe that you will see it happen, in your lifetime.
The above statement actually makes more sense and logic than those Americans who believe that they and their familes are and should be happy, carefree, and loyal sheep. Sheep that love and trust their government. The same government that has betrayed all of us at one time or another. If nothing else most of us here at the moment seem to, unlike the sheep, know better.
But for anyone who DOES look forward to going to war with your government/fellow Americans, without waiting to the very last second or waiting while trying your very last gasp at peaceful change, then you are acting like an ungrateful recipient of an incredible beautiful and valuable gift. A gift that was given to you by the founders of this county. A gift that they only came into possession of, in order to pass it on to you, by tremendous time,effort, risk, worry, blood, and lives. And this gift, while not as perfect as it was orginally, has been kept fairly intact down through the centuries again by the lives, blood and even lost body parts of your fellow Americans.
That gift is the nation you are a citizen of, and the form of government we have, the bill of rights, the constitution, the ballot box and the justice system. None of any of this is or ever was perfect. But it is and was more perfect than anything that came before or since. For the first time, admittedly after some addition struggles and legal tweaking, EVERY citizen of America was actually a CITIZEN. Not a slave or subject but a CITIZEN. Every person, instead of being owned by the king or the government, was instead themselves a part owner of their country. Instead of people being owned by their government, the people owned the government. At least that is how it is SUPPOSED to be. And if we good Americans will stick and work together, we can make it that way again. And we can do it in a peaceful manner.
Our country's founders, struggled, suffered and most died an early death as a result of helping to give birth to this wonderful country which they gifted to you merely by you having been born here. Many (perhaps most) of our country's founders not only lost their homes and fortunes, but also had to suffer seeing their own families suffer because of what the founders did for us.
The founders were also smart enough to structure our form of government so that if the majority of citizens don't like the way the country is being run, you can use your vote and/or pressure on your elected representatives to CHANGE this country into almost any thing you wish it to be.
It would be foolish for anyone to be anxious to throw this gift away by going to war with your government or your fellow Americans. Besides, once you "burn down America" as you know it, it WILL be rebuilt. But there is NO WAY to truly predict just what it will look like or how it will effect or treat you and your family once it IS rebuilt.
You may not like the "new and improved" America if it is rebuilt by force.
quote:Originally posted by pickenup
Looks like........your lingering.......[:0]
The gene pool needs chlorine.
(Damn.....He noticed [:I])
(note to self: switch to plan "B")
Why yes, Mr. Pickenup, sir, I am "lingering". Thank you for calling that to my attention. I frankly enjoy the company of many here on this forum. However, please notice that I have only been "lingering" on this particular posted topic.
TrFox;
From my prospective..you are a valued member of what ever group you are in.
Your reasoned responses are a good balance to some of us here..forcing us to carefully think thru posts.
I find a vast difference between those blindly "following orders"..those people will line up to hand in guns...and inform on their betters.....
And people desperately digging for ways to avoid catastropic events in the making.
Placing you in this latter group doesn't denigate you at all....
You know tr, Highball and I clashed pretty hard when I first got here but we managed to work it out and although we don't always agree on everything, we have found a way to amicably express our differences. Sometimes, if you see that there is more to gain by working around your discrepancies, you are rewarded with that which you did not possess. Funny how things work out that way.[;)]
There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
If nobody seen you do it, how could you have done it. NRA BENEFACTOR-LIFE Member, AF&AM, Shriner Life Member, A.B.A.T.E. of Illinois "Chicago Chapter" Founding Member & Board Member
I am completely convinced that the NRA is more a group that "lobbies for gun rights" rather than fight for mishandled members. We really need a different group to go after the ATF and fight for individuals who need help with gun related issues. We are lifetime members of the NRA and appreciate all they have done, BUT....when the ATF closed our store for a while and we were in court for years fighting for ourselves (winning in the end) the NRA never helped us. Now that we are facing problems again with the ATF.....the NRA is (again)not helping us.
I hear a lot about fund raising and commemorative guns being available...I hear some about dinners and special trips I could participate in *IF* I contribute enough....I hear a little about legislation the NRA is trying to fight or pass....and NEVER do I hear about the NRA sending a team to assist with a fellow member's trouble.
I do not know if there is any room in the NRA for what I would need them to do....but if they cannot help us when we are wronged then maybe we need TWO groups...one to lobby and another to "kick butt."
I would be happy to join that group as a lifetime member also.
quote:Originally posted by Locust Fork
I am completely convinced that the NRA is more a group that "lobbies for gun rights" rather than fight for mishandled members. We really need a different group to go after the ATF and fight for individuals who need help with gun related issues. We are lifetime members of the NRA and appreciate all they have done, BUT....when the ATF closed our store for a while and we were in court for years fighting for ourselves (winning in the end) the NRA never helped us. Now that we are facing problems again with the ATF.....the NRA is (again)not helping us.
I hear a lot about fund raising and commemorative guns being available...I hear some about dinners and special trips I could participate in *IF* I contribute enough....I hear a little about legislation the NRA is trying to fight or pass....and NEVER do I hear about the NRA sending a team to assist with a fellow member's trouble.
I do not know if there is any room in the NRA for what I would need them to do....but if they cannot help us when we are wronged then maybe we need TWO groups...one to lobby and another to "kick butt."
I would be happy to join that group as a lifetime member also.
As a gunner I naturally feel sympathy and support for you and your situation. But surely you are aware that the NRA has fewer than about 5-8% of all gun owners as dues paying members. This means that the finances and membership clout of the NRA is severely limited. They just plain don't have the time, money and manpower to rush out and help each and every gun owner/dealer that runs into problems. It is likely they would like to be able help with every problem if for no other reason than such actions on their part would almost guarantee new members for the NRA. But the NRA just doesn't have the resources to be a local "fire department".
There are few if any organizations or legislators trying to ban private automobiles as compared to the numerous efforts to try to ban guns. Yet you might very well belong to the AAA with the yearly dues more than the NRA yearly dues. And the AAA doesn't have to spend the time, effort and money trying to help save your right to own and use your car. And while you of course get some helpful benefits from belonging to the AAA, you would not expect the AAA to send a team to your town if you got into legal trouble of a personal and specific nature. Nor would you expect the AAA to come to your home and repair your car if it breaks down.
I guess it is just human nature, but many people expect way too much of ALL the progun rights organizations.
Exactly my point...I want the NRA to keep on going and do everything they always have. Its just for the dues I pay you would think I would have at least gotten a letter from someone in the NRA when the MAJOR crap hit the fan. I will continue to be a supporter of the NRA...I just don't think they support me very much.
I am not saying I want them to come make my world smell like flowers....just when I have to close a gun store, spend $350,000.00 defending myself, and go through pure hell for over 5 years.....all to come out winning in the end. I would have at least appreciated a letter of recognition for my membership and some suggestions for aide. Not the complete brush off like I got.
The NRA obviously has its hands full...but if the members don't get a little recognition when things like what happened to us happen to others...I see some very unhappy days ahead for them. If someone had at least put out a memo notifying the other members in our area of what was really going on...it MAY have helped. BUT..since the ATF had raided our store and nothing was told to the public (except local HORRIBLE news coverage) even the regular customers avoided the store.
Let me know if there IS another organization that has a little more sympathy for its members.
Well, yeah, the NRA should have at least given you a personal response to your problems. I mean, it doesn't cost much for one of their executives to write you letter or make a phone call. But below is a copy of a reply I made to you on the general discussion forurm. I also forwarded a copy to the forum administrator asking him to forward it to GB.com administrator to see if there is any interest.
posted on GB.com general discussion forum:
Well you have a very valid argument and I like the way you expressed it and the example you gave. And if I was wealthy, I would ship you all the money you needed to protect your right to be an FFL holder. I feel that strongly in support for you. Unfortunately I am not wealthy.
But it will do no one any good if we publically blame the NRA for not being able to help you. Since the NRA has only about 5-8% of all gun owners as supporting members, the NRA just plain doesn't have the income or members support to be able to help most cases such as yours. I agree that it would be wise for the NRA to try and find the needed income and resources to help you, but I'm afraid it won't be easy.
But in the meantime here is an idea that I have been thinking about for a long, long time. Why don't FFL holders all across America become more organized? Form a nationwide organization and pool your strengths, funds, knowledge, support, etc. That way when the ATFE tries to lean on a small FFL holder, it won't be like it is now and the ATFE won't be leaning on just a small, resource poor business. You could even contact the NRA and ask for their organizing and contacts help.
This is not a radical idea. Numerous other interest groups have done this long ago. The Am. Automobile Assn, the American Medical Assn, American Motorcycle Assn, etc., etc. There could be numerous benefits if you had such a nationwide association. Such benefits as having a "war chest" of your pooled money, shared expenses for legal fees, greatly expanded political clout. You could probably even setup a national insurance policy to pay for any legal fees or to reimburse you for any losses, etc. Might even be able to pool your purchasing power and wholesale purchase your guns, ammo and equipment at a much lower price than you are able to do now.
If I can help you with this idea I would be happy to do what I can; although since I am just an average guy I don't know what that could be. If you like the idea, why don't you start by contacting the Adminstration right here on GB.com becasue over the years we have heard way to many stories of how our FFL's get mistreated and it needs to stop.
LF;
TRfox is a source of ideas...he still believes in and willing to work within the system...[:D]
The major flaw in the above approach is that the big dealers still think there is too many FFL's out there...and willing to allow bunches more to go down.As with most businessmen in America today..they would be tickled to death to be the last government protected monopoly left standing, as the numbers shrink towards ONE multi-fronted store....
I have no doubt...that if you and the other smaller dealers are going to survive...something on the order of what TR suggests SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE TEN YEARS ago...but better late then never.
The handwritting is on the wall, for everybody to see. We have this so-called "Pro-Second Amendment" administration..(Excuse me as I gag)...and the assault continues unabated..merely attacking on a different front.
Ironically..history may record Clinton's period in office as the best thing to happen to gun ownership...and Bush's time as the worst.
The NRA and SAF are all we have to fight our fight for us. The detractors of the NRA can do whatever they like besides complain to other gun owners about the NRA. If every pro-gun rights, NRA detractor would lobby, campaign and fight for our rights in public we's be far ahead but they do nothing instead. It's a rare day when gun owners lift a telephone or write a letter to their reps to fight gun-rights infringements. They love to say, I'm not gettin' my name on any list!
If you don't like the NRA then work with SAF. But do something, besides gripe to your fellow gun owners.
To do nothing invites the day when the jack-booted thugs knock on your door and serve their search warrant because they believe you may have a gun or ammunition. Your fellow gun owners will snitch you off to get out of their own troubles.
Defender
Private investigator licensed in AZ & CA that specializes in self defense cases.
quote:To do nothing invites the day when the jack-booted thugs knock on your door and serve their search warrant because they believe you may have a gun or ammunition. Your fellow gun owners will snitch you off to get out of their own troubles.
There will be NO FREEDOM in America until this happens. Surely you remember having read something about 1775...?
quote:Remember, that as wayward children of King George, we (as British subjects), were commanded by our government to surrender our guns and powder.
The actual British order to seize and destroy the American's guns and supplies, for that day, reads as follows:
"Having received Intelligence, that a Quantity of Ammunition, Provision, Artillery, Tents and small Arms, have been collected at Concord, for the Avowed Purpose of raising and supporting a Rebellion against His Majesty, you will March with the Corps of Grenadiers and Light Infantry, put under your Command, with utmost expedition and Secrecy to Concord, where you will seize and destroy all Artillery, Ammunition, Provisions, Tents, Small Arms, and all Military Stores whatever ..." (Per Order of General Gage to Lt. Colonel F. Smith, of the Kings Troops. The Minute Men The First Fight: Myths and Realities of the American Revolution, by John R. Galvin, at page 100).
At Concord, house to house searches were conducted by the British to carry out the above order. Remember, the possession of powder, cannon, and other supplies of war might have meant arrest for revolutionary activities. The supplies of arms were substantial:
"Within the town, scattered through the cellars and attics and outbuildings of at least twenty-five houses, the provincials had concealed ten tons of musket balls and cartridges, thirty-five half barrels of powder, 350 tents, fourteen medicine chests, eighty barrels of beef, eight and a half tons of salt fish, seventeen and a half tons of rye, 318 barrels of flour, 100 barrels of salt, ... hundreds of axes, canteens, reams of cartridge paper ... and ... a substantial number of cannon and gun carriages of varying sizes... ." (emphasis added). The Minute Men the First Fight: Myths and Realities of the American Revolution, by John R. Galvin, at page 140).
On April 19, 1775, the Americans were prepared to, and did, fight for their liberty and freedom. What would you have done?
When will we call upon ourselves to arms of our militia? I'm 57 years old now and if it does not happen soon enough I'll be too busy changing my adult diapers to fight. That is unless I'm so old I have to have someone change them for me.
I see nothing at all happening until our Bolshevik kontrolled government colapses under it's own overblown weight.
Defender
Private investigator licensed in AZ & CA that specializes in self defense cases.
Defender;
Precisly the reason for my repeated call to stop crawling on our bellies to our "Elected Representitives"..BEGGING them to please obey the Constitution.
ALLOW these slimy little hollow suits their moment of glory...as they pass that law banning firearms.
quote:Originally posted by Defender
The NRA and SAF are all we have to fight our fight for us. The detractors of the NRA can do whatever they like besides complain to other gun owners about the NRA. If every pro-gun rights, NRA detractor would lobby, campaign and fight for our rights in public we's be far ahead but they do nothing instead. It's a rare day when gun owners lift a telephone or write a letter to their reps to fight gun-rights infringements. They love to say, I'm not gettin' my name on any list!
If you don't like the NRA then work with SAF. But do something, besides gripe to your fellow gun owners.
To do nothing invites the day when the jack-booted thugs knock on your door and serve their search warrant because they believe you may have a gun or ammunition. Your fellow gun owners will snitch you off to get out of their own troubles.
Defender
Private investigator licensed in AZ & CA that specializes in self defense cases.
Dang Defender! You don't speak out on this very often, but when you do you speak with clarity and reason.
For those who are eager to destroy America so that it can supposely be rebuilt more to their liking, consider this. Each of you (and me) don't presently have a whole lot of influence in shaping the America we have now.
What exactly makes you think you would be able to have much control or influence over what shape America takes as it is rebuilt?
And if you don't have and won't have much influence, haven't you even considered that you and your family may hate the "new" America and even long for the old, "defective" America.
Bottom line, once you restart the game, you cannot accurately predict exactly where that game will take you.
What you can predict is that if you work hard with and within your own groups of interest it is truly possible to accumulate enough power to mold our present America into almost anything you want it to be.
quote:For those who are eager to destroy America so that it can supposely be rebuilt more to their liking,
quote:For those who are eager to destroy America
Contained within this short statement..is the seeds of its own inaness.It ADMITS that "Your" America is ALREADY destroyed..that without continuous pressure, you elected representitives will completely throw out the Constitution...
quote:so that it can supposely be rebuilt more to their liking,When you allow contempt to cloud your thinking..you no longer think straight.
Never ever have I wished to 'rebuild America more to my liking'...I have, however, insisted that the Founders laid down some pretty good guidelines for how to run a country.
Unlike the NRA and its supporters...they actually believed in freedom.
If American is destroyed, regardless of whether from within or from without, it is unlikely our "founders" and their good ideas about freedom will be able to produce much control over how the new America is built. The America building situation that occurred in 1776 may be a once in the lifetime of our planet event.
I for one would rather work and improve on what we have and what was given us. I don't want to turn the game board over onto the floor and try to design, create and impliment another game.
None of us might like the way the new game is played and we might long for the old game which is our current, repairable America.
Comments
There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
Couldd it possibly be because the center people..those actually believing in the Constitution..are plenty pissed at at a party determined to outdo the perverted Democrats in destroying this country ?
Possibly people are troubled at our "War and Security" president..allowing the borders to remain open, conducting a war on private citizens via the "Patriot Act"...
Looks like he is paving the way for Hilliary.
Wow the wolf comes out and shows his teeth. Very nice. I can only speak for myself but my feeling of the need for speed is in an effort to circumvent anymore laws that these political hacks wish to put upon us. I know Highball is sitting back wringing his hands because the inevitable seems to be coming at a far greater pace than expected. Although I speak much about legislation and the Supreme Court, I realize it is only wishful thinking, so I went and bought another 2,000 .308 rounds and 1,000 .223's. I've got all the body armor I may need, gas masks, chemical suit, ghillie suit, and guns. I'm good to go, someone tell me when it's time to turn it all loose.
There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
If you move to Iraq and live for awhile you can experience first hand what it is you seem to be wishing for. Even if it turns out that what you find there is what you truly want to happen, you should still think of your loved ones (parents, brothers, sisters, present or future children) that do not want it to happen.
As evidenced by the successful NRA/2nd Amendment Foundatation lawsuit file in Louisana, which not only stopped but reversed probably the largest government gun confiscation in the last 100 years, we can prevail throught the courts and the ballot box. No need in sight to destroy our country yet.
How many San Francisco folk held a CCW there? 1? Diane Feinstein?
How about instead of us 4 million gun owners that are NRA members and give the NRA over $140 Million annually justed banded together and took over Canada. They only have 60,000 in their military. We could take their country and start anew but this time our Constitution will say in bold letters...THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO BARE ARMS WILL NOT BE INFRINGED.
Anyone think the US would step in and prevent us citizens from taking over Canada?
http://www.worldnewsstand.net/law/No_Justice.htm
If you take the time to do some reading, some real reading, you will be enlightened as to what our government has been doing TO us since March 9th, 1933. Nearly every move they have made of any real substance has tightened their reign over the people or the office of "person."
What was it about 1933 that caused our entire country to change from a land of sovereign individuals to enslaved subjects. Did you know; this country had a national debt of $100,000,000,000 that was backed by $4,000,000,000 in gold and that this country was forced to declare bankruptcy, we have been in chapter 11 ever since. FDR signed an executive order outlawing the private ownership of gold. WHAT? Did you also know that we are not under common law any longer, we are under law of Admiralty. If you don't think you are a slave you are in for the disappointment of a lifetime. I know, I know, I'm some kind of wacko, well I can assure you that I am neither a wacko nor am I a conspiracy theorist. These are facts that I use to come to my conclusions and I am far from alone. If I had just one wish, that would be that ALL Americans read about these heinous crimes against our liberties and do so with an open mind. I think they will be shocked as to what their mind will expose them to when allowed to do so.
There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
But all this has not come at the hands of one or two lifetime dicators. It has come at the hands of various elected presidents , congress people and appointed managers/directors. What I have just described is NOT some static, unchangeable trip to total government enslavement of the American people. Instead, what I have described is a mallable, changeable (if we want it bad enough) journey by our government that can be changed at the ballot box. But we believers in constitutional law aren't doing nearly as good a job causing that change as we could.
Poster Red223 I believe, posted above that we pro-gun, pro-constitutional people should ban together and take over Canada.
Why don't we just ban together and re-take over our own country and government? Peacefully.
The gene pool needs chlorine.
"If I had just one wish, that would be that ALL Americans read about these heinous crimes against our liberties and do so with an open mind. I think they will be shocked as to what their mind will expose them to when allowed to do so."
Why do you think I suggested the information site???? There are people out here than will read the information, get angry, then cut and paste it to an email.
Here is some more ammo:
http://www.devvy.com/notax.html
Proud to be an American!
Shhh! Quiet Pickenup, I'm enjoying this!
quote:The Mid-term elections referred to.. resounding losses for the Repubs.
Don't really get this, Highball. California voted, my God, LIBERAL! And two Democrat states, NJ and VA, voted for... DEMOCRATS!
No loss, no gain.
-Wolf
MOLON LABE
The Second Amendment begins when the First Amendment ends.
Comengetit
"If I had just one wish, that would be that ALL Americans read about these heinous crimes against our liberties and do so with an open mind. I think they will be shocked as to what their mind will expose them to when allowed to do so."
Why do you think I suggested the information site???? There are people out here than will read the information, get angry, then cut and paste it to an email.
Here is some more ammo:
http://www.devvy.com/notax.html
Proud to be an American!
The information site was a great idea, I just know how these folks are. The ones that occassionally come over to this board already know, the others won't take the time to read any of it. It's a damn shame but who'll be the ones complaining the loudest when the SHTF? The uninformed.
There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
However...he out-Democrated the perverted Democrats...and the decent people decided to stay home.
Once again..let me assure everyone that I am not a bloodthirsty barbarian, DEAMING of civil war. I wish that Fox's method would work.I pray EVERY DAY....that SOME leader steps up to National prominence with the message of Constitutional Law being the Law of the Land..and tens of thousands of "color of law" 'laws' have beem passed. I have NO WISH to be gunned down in the streets because I BELIEVE WITH ALL MY HEART we live under tyranny....NOR do I wish it for our wives, sweethearts, or children.
I merely believe that you will see it happen, in your lifetime.
But for anyone who DOES look forward to going to war with your government/fellow Americans, without waiting to the very last second or waiting while trying your very last gasp at peaceful change, then you are acting like an ungrateful recipient of an incredible beautiful and valuable gift. A gift that was given to you by the founders of this county. A gift that they only came into possession of, in order to pass it on to you, by tremendous time,effort, risk, worry, blood, and lives. And this gift, while not as perfect as it was orginally, has been kept fairly intact down through the centuries again by the lives, blood and even lost body parts of your fellow Americans.
That gift is the nation you are a citizen of, and the form of government we have, the bill of rights, the constitution, the ballot box and the justice system. None of any of this is or ever was perfect. But it is and was more perfect than anything that came before or since. For the first time, admittedly after some addition struggles and legal tweaking, EVERY citizen of America was actually a CITIZEN. Not a slave or subject but a CITIZEN. Every person, instead of being owned by the king or the government, was instead themselves a part owner of their country. Instead of people being owned by their government, the people owned the government. At least that is how it is SUPPOSED to be. And if we good Americans will stick and work together, we can make it that way again. And we can do it in a peaceful manner.
Our country's founders, struggled, suffered and most died an early death as a result of helping to give birth to this wonderful country which they gifted to you merely by you having been born here. Many (perhaps most) of our country's founders not only lost their homes and fortunes, but also had to suffer seeing their own families suffer because of what the founders did for us.
The founders were also smart enough to structure our form of government so that if the majority of citizens don't like the way the country is being run, you can use your vote and/or pressure on your elected representatives to CHANGE this country into almost any thing you wish it to be.
It would be foolish for anyone to be anxious to throw this gift away by going to war with your government or your fellow Americans. Besides, once you "burn down America" as you know it, it WILL be rebuilt. But there is NO WAY to truly predict just what it will look like or how it will effect or treat you and your family once it IS rebuilt.
You may not like the "new and improved" America if it is rebuilt by force.
Looks like........your lingering.......[:0]
The gene pool needs chlorine.
(Damn.....He noticed [:I])
(note to self: switch to plan "B")
Why yes, Mr. Pickenup, sir, I am "lingering". Thank you for calling that to my attention. I frankly enjoy the company of many here on this forum. However, please notice that I have only been "lingering" on this particular posted topic.
Sooner or later this topic will run out.
And so will I.
Shhh! Quiet Pickenup, I'm enjoying this!
Me too...[;)]
The gene pool needs chlorine.
From my prospective..you are a valued member of what ever group you are in.
Your reasoned responses are a good balance to some of us here..forcing us to carefully think thru posts.
I find a vast difference between those blindly "following orders"..those people will line up to hand in guns...and inform on their betters.....
And people desperately digging for ways to avoid catastropic events in the making.
Placing you in this latter group doesn't denigate you at all....
[8D]
MOLON LABE
The Second Amendment begins when the First Amendment ends.
There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
ENTIRELY too emotional for such as I...[}:)]
There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
PJ
If nobody seen you do it, how could you have done it. NRA BENEFACTOR-LIFE Member, AF&AM, Shriner Life Member, A.B.A.T.E. of Illinois "Chicago Chapter" Founding Member & Board Member
I hear a lot about fund raising and commemorative guns being available...I hear some about dinners and special trips I could participate in *IF* I contribute enough....I hear a little about legislation the NRA is trying to fight or pass....and NEVER do I hear about the NRA sending a team to assist with a fellow member's trouble.
I do not know if there is any room in the NRA for what I would need them to do....but if they cannot help us when we are wronged then maybe we need TWO groups...one to lobby and another to "kick butt."
I would be happy to join that group as a lifetime member also.
Without your permission...I posted the above over to General Discussion in a thread about NRA POLL...and a link to your ATF thread.
Say the word...and I will erase it, if you object.
I am completely convinced that the NRA is more a group that "lobbies for gun rights" rather than fight for mishandled members. We really need a different group to go after the ATF and fight for individuals who need help with gun related issues. We are lifetime members of the NRA and appreciate all they have done, BUT....when the ATF closed our store for a while and we were in court for years fighting for ourselves (winning in the end) the NRA never helped us. Now that we are facing problems again with the ATF.....the NRA is (again)not helping us.
I hear a lot about fund raising and commemorative guns being available...I hear some about dinners and special trips I could participate in *IF* I contribute enough....I hear a little about legislation the NRA is trying to fight or pass....and NEVER do I hear about the NRA sending a team to assist with a fellow member's trouble.
I do not know if there is any room in the NRA for what I would need them to do....but if they cannot help us when we are wronged then maybe we need TWO groups...one to lobby and another to "kick butt."
I would be happy to join that group as a lifetime member also.
As a gunner I naturally feel sympathy and support for you and your situation. But surely you are aware that the NRA has fewer than about 5-8% of all gun owners as dues paying members. This means that the finances and membership clout of the NRA is severely limited. They just plain don't have the time, money and manpower to rush out and help each and every gun owner/dealer that runs into problems. It is likely they would like to be able help with every problem if for no other reason than such actions on their part would almost guarantee new members for the NRA. But the NRA just doesn't have the resources to be a local "fire department".
There are few if any organizations or legislators trying to ban private automobiles as compared to the numerous efforts to try to ban guns. Yet you might very well belong to the AAA with the yearly dues more than the NRA yearly dues. And the AAA doesn't have to spend the time, effort and money trying to help save your right to own and use your car. And while you of course get some helpful benefits from belonging to the AAA, you would not expect the AAA to send a team to your town if you got into legal trouble of a personal and specific nature. Nor would you expect the AAA to come to your home and repair your car if it breaks down.
I guess it is just human nature, but many people expect way too much of ALL the progun rights organizations.
I am not saying I want them to come make my world smell like flowers....just when I have to close a gun store, spend $350,000.00 defending myself, and go through pure hell for over 5 years.....all to come out winning in the end. I would have at least appreciated a letter of recognition for my membership and some suggestions for aide. Not the complete brush off like I got.
The NRA obviously has its hands full...but if the members don't get a little recognition when things like what happened to us happen to others...I see some very unhappy days ahead for them. If someone had at least put out a memo notifying the other members in our area of what was really going on...it MAY have helped. BUT..since the ATF had raided our store and nothing was told to the public (except local HORRIBLE news coverage) even the regular customers avoided the store.
Let me know if there IS another organization that has a little more sympathy for its members.
posted on GB.com general discussion forum:
Well you have a very valid argument and I like the way you expressed it and the example you gave. And if I was wealthy, I would ship you all the money you needed to protect your right to be an FFL holder. I feel that strongly in support for you. Unfortunately I am not wealthy.
But it will do no one any good if we publically blame the NRA for not being able to help you. Since the NRA has only about 5-8% of all gun owners as supporting members, the NRA just plain doesn't have the income or members support to be able to help most cases such as yours. I agree that it would be wise for the NRA to try and find the needed income and resources to help you, but I'm afraid it won't be easy.
But in the meantime here is an idea that I have been thinking about for a long, long time. Why don't FFL holders all across America become more organized? Form a nationwide organization and pool your strengths, funds, knowledge, support, etc. That way when the ATFE tries to lean on a small FFL holder, it won't be like it is now and the ATFE won't be leaning on just a small, resource poor business. You could even contact the NRA and ask for their organizing and contacts help.
This is not a radical idea. Numerous other interest groups have done this long ago. The Am. Automobile Assn, the American Medical Assn, American Motorcycle Assn, etc., etc. There could be numerous benefits if you had such a nationwide association. Such benefits as having a "war chest" of your pooled money, shared expenses for legal fees, greatly expanded political clout. You could probably even setup a national insurance policy to pay for any legal fees or to reimburse you for any losses, etc. Might even be able to pool your purchasing power and wholesale purchase your guns, ammo and equipment at a much lower price than you are able to do now.
If I can help you with this idea I would be happy to do what I can; although since I am just an average guy I don't know what that could be. If you like the idea, why don't you start by contacting the Adminstration right here on GB.com becasue over the years we have heard way to many stories of how our FFL's get mistreated and it needs to stop.
TRfox is a source of ideas...he still believes in and willing to work within the system...[:D]
The major flaw in the above approach is that the big dealers still think there is too many FFL's out there...and willing to allow bunches more to go down.As with most businessmen in America today..they would be tickled to death to be the last government protected monopoly left standing, as the numbers shrink towards ONE multi-fronted store....
I have no doubt...that if you and the other smaller dealers are going to survive...something on the order of what TR suggests SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE TEN YEARS ago...but better late then never.
The handwritting is on the wall, for everybody to see. We have this so-called "Pro-Second Amendment" administration..(Excuse me as I gag)...and the assault continues unabated..merely attacking on a different front.
Ironically..history may record Clinton's period in office as the best thing to happen to gun ownership...and Bush's time as the worst.
If you don't like the NRA then work with SAF. But do something, besides gripe to your fellow gun owners.
To do nothing invites the day when the jack-booted thugs knock on your door and serve their search warrant because they believe you may have a gun or ammunition. Your fellow gun owners will snitch you off to get out of their own troubles.
Defender
Private investigator licensed in AZ & CA that specializes in self defense cases.
There will be NO FREEDOM in America until this happens. Surely you remember having read something about 1775...?
quote:Remember, that as wayward children of King George, we (as British subjects), were commanded by our government to surrender our guns and powder.
The actual British order to seize and destroy the American's guns and supplies, for that day, reads as follows:
"Having received Intelligence, that a Quantity of Ammunition, Provision, Artillery, Tents and small Arms, have been collected at Concord, for the Avowed Purpose of raising and supporting a Rebellion against His Majesty, you will March with the Corps of Grenadiers and Light Infantry, put under your Command, with utmost expedition and Secrecy to Concord, where you will seize and destroy all Artillery, Ammunition, Provisions, Tents, Small Arms, and all Military Stores whatever ..." (Per Order of General Gage to Lt. Colonel F. Smith, of the Kings Troops. The Minute Men The First Fight: Myths and Realities of the American Revolution, by John R. Galvin, at page 100).
At Concord, house to house searches were conducted by the British to carry out the above order. Remember, the possession of powder, cannon, and other supplies of war might have meant arrest for revolutionary activities. The supplies of arms were substantial:
"Within the town, scattered through the cellars and attics and outbuildings of at least twenty-five houses, the provincials had concealed ten tons of musket balls and cartridges, thirty-five half barrels of powder, 350 tents, fourteen medicine chests, eighty barrels of beef, eight and a half tons of salt fish, seventeen and a half tons of rye, 318 barrels of flour, 100 barrels of salt, ... hundreds of axes, canteens, reams of cartridge paper ... and ... a substantial number of cannon and gun carriages of varying sizes... ." (emphasis added). The Minute Men the First Fight: Myths and Realities of the American Revolution, by John R. Galvin, at page 140).
On April 19, 1775, the Americans were prepared to, and did, fight for their liberty and freedom. What would you have done?
God,Guts,& GunsHave we lost all 3 ??
I see nothing at all happening until our Bolshevik kontrolled government colapses under it's own overblown weight.
Defender
Private investigator licensed in AZ & CA that specializes in self defense cases.
Precisly the reason for my repeated call to stop crawling on our bellies to our "Elected Representitives"..BEGGING them to please obey the Constitution.
ALLOW these slimy little hollow suits their moment of glory...as they pass that law banning firearms.
The NRA and SAF are all we have to fight our fight for us. The detractors of the NRA can do whatever they like besides complain to other gun owners about the NRA. If every pro-gun rights, NRA detractor would lobby, campaign and fight for our rights in public we's be far ahead but they do nothing instead. It's a rare day when gun owners lift a telephone or write a letter to their reps to fight gun-rights infringements. They love to say, I'm not gettin' my name on any list!
If you don't like the NRA then work with SAF. But do something, besides gripe to your fellow gun owners.
To do nothing invites the day when the jack-booted thugs knock on your door and serve their search warrant because they believe you may have a gun or ammunition. Your fellow gun owners will snitch you off to get out of their own troubles.
Defender
Private investigator licensed in AZ & CA that specializes in self defense cases.
Dang Defender! You don't speak out on this very often, but when you do you speak with clarity and reason.
For those who are eager to destroy America so that it can supposely be rebuilt more to their liking, consider this. Each of you (and me) don't presently have a whole lot of influence in shaping the America we have now.
What exactly makes you think you would be able to have much control or influence over what shape America takes as it is rebuilt?
And if you don't have and won't have much influence, haven't you even considered that you and your family may hate the "new" America and even long for the old, "defective" America.
Bottom line, once you restart the game, you cannot accurately predict exactly where that game will take you.
What you can predict is that if you work hard with and within your own groups of interest it is truly possible to accumulate enough power to mold our present America into almost anything you want it to be.
quote:For those who are eager to destroy America
Contained within this short statement..is the seeds of its own inaness.It ADMITS that "Your" America is ALREADY destroyed..that without continuous pressure, you elected representitives will completely throw out the Constitution...
quote:so that it can supposely be rebuilt more to their liking,When you allow contempt to cloud your thinking..you no longer think straight.
Never ever have I wished to 'rebuild America more to my liking'...I have, however, insisted that the Founders laid down some pretty good guidelines for how to run a country.
Unlike the NRA and its supporters...they actually believed in freedom.
I for one would rather work and improve on what we have and what was given us. I don't want to turn the game board over onto the floor and try to design, create and impliment another game.
None of us might like the way the new game is played and we might long for the old game which is our current, repairable America.