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Recent visit at Gun Range/Gun Shop
tr fox
Member Posts: 13,856
I had reason to visit the Crossfire Gun Range in Independence, MO on Monday AM. Had a few minutes to kill so I got into a discussion with the range owner. He actually just runs the range and He has an FFL which he never uses, just keeps it in case the other party who apparently leases out space in the range office and actually runs the gun sales part of the range ever moves.
I asked him if he had any problems similar to what LocustFork has been having in regards to the ATF seeming to push various FFL into the "three strikes" and you lose your FFL license. Since he didn't actually sell guns he had no experience with that problem and he didn't seem to know of the gun shop owner having any similar problems. Of course that doesn't mean the gun shop owner hasn't had problems with the BATF, just that the man I was talking to knew of no such problems. However, there were a couple of interesting comments made by this man which I want to share.
One comment was that he received a phone call from the BATF recently telling him that since there was no record of him actually selling any guns, that he would have to forfeit his FFL license. Had something to do with Clinton's law that if you have an FFL and don't actually use it you have to forfeit it. When the man explained that he just had the FFL in case the gun shop owners departed, the BATF agent then said "what is the name of your range again?". Man said "Crossfire Range". Agent said "Oh, hell! I shoot there all the time. I know who I'm talking to now. Just forget I called" and agent ended conversadtion.
The other item of interest will interest DSmith in regards to fully auto guns. Man said that the gun shop owner was somehow knowledgeable about making homemade machine guns. Man said it was legal to make, own and shoot a machine gun if you made it yourself. Was also legal for let friends and relaltives shoot it if you are there yourself.
Now I doubt that anyone here wants to try and make a machine gun in their garage using common tools. But now I know why I have seen AR-15 and Ak-47 receivers that are only 80% completed offered for sale.No FFL is required to purchase them and they have no serial numbers on them because they are not yet actually receivers. The need only some hand tools and a little work to make them into fully functioning receivers at which point you can add all the other parts (internal parts, trigger, stock, barrell, etc) and now you have yourself a cheap and legal machine gun.
I can't prove if this is true, but with what I have seen I am confident that it is legal to purchase the semi-completed AR-15 and AK-47 receiver and make your own gun that does not have the normally rrequired serial number. And if that is true, then it just might be true that you could make your own legal and cheap machine gun.
I asked him if he had any problems similar to what LocustFork has been having in regards to the ATF seeming to push various FFL into the "three strikes" and you lose your FFL license. Since he didn't actually sell guns he had no experience with that problem and he didn't seem to know of the gun shop owner having any similar problems. Of course that doesn't mean the gun shop owner hasn't had problems with the BATF, just that the man I was talking to knew of no such problems. However, there were a couple of interesting comments made by this man which I want to share.
One comment was that he received a phone call from the BATF recently telling him that since there was no record of him actually selling any guns, that he would have to forfeit his FFL license. Had something to do with Clinton's law that if you have an FFL and don't actually use it you have to forfeit it. When the man explained that he just had the FFL in case the gun shop owners departed, the BATF agent then said "what is the name of your range again?". Man said "Crossfire Range". Agent said "Oh, hell! I shoot there all the time. I know who I'm talking to now. Just forget I called" and agent ended conversadtion.
The other item of interest will interest DSmith in regards to fully auto guns. Man said that the gun shop owner was somehow knowledgeable about making homemade machine guns. Man said it was legal to make, own and shoot a machine gun if you made it yourself. Was also legal for let friends and relaltives shoot it if you are there yourself.
Now I doubt that anyone here wants to try and make a machine gun in their garage using common tools. But now I know why I have seen AR-15 and Ak-47 receivers that are only 80% completed offered for sale.No FFL is required to purchase them and they have no serial numbers on them because they are not yet actually receivers. The need only some hand tools and a little work to make them into fully functioning receivers at which point you can add all the other parts (internal parts, trigger, stock, barrell, etc) and now you have yourself a cheap and legal machine gun.
I can't prove if this is true, but with what I have seen I am confident that it is legal to purchase the semi-completed AR-15 and AK-47 receiver and make your own gun that does not have the normally rrequired serial number. And if that is true, then it just might be true that you could make your own legal and cheap machine gun.
Comments
I believe I have heard of this too, and seen the kits. I think there have been some posts in Experts about this. From what I hear, the remaining 20% isn't exactly something you can wheel out your Shopsmith and complete in an afternoon. I've heard that it really requires an experienced machinist or gunsmith to get it right.
But hey, maybe if one of us is a machinist we can get something going. How do they define "make your own"? Could a machinist set it all up and we each just flip the power switch? Maybe we can have Defender standing by with a Notary that will certify that we each flipped the machine switch for each of our respective machine guns.
[:D]
(quote)
(A7) Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle?
With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a nonlicensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms.
However, a person is prohibited from making a semiautomatic assault weapon or assembling a nonsporting semiautomatic rifle or nonsporting shotgun from imported parts.
In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machinegun will not be
approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a federal or state agency.
N. MACHINEGUNS -NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT (NFA)
(N1) May an unlicensed person make a machinegun?
Generally, no. But, in the event that documentation can be provided, along with the Application to Make a Machinegun, which establishes that the weapon is being made for distribution to a Federal or state agency, an individual may be permitted to make the machinegun.
(/quote)
[:D]
http://www.tanneryshop.com/MESSAGEBOARD.html
Here are some highlights:
quote:An 80% frame is actually a "special case" with the BATF and comes under restrictions that apply to any metal castings that are used to form the basis for gun parts..... the piece is still in a state of limbo, so to speak.... it isn't really a "Gun" but it isn't really a raw hunk of metal either....they are still considered to be just pieces of metal as far as the BATF and the Brady Bill are concerned.... Remember that as far as the ATF is concerned... the frame/receiver IS the firearm.... and everything else is just parts.
So it is perfectly legal to order an 80% frame/receiver from the distributor and there is no paperwork at all involved. You do not need to be an FFL dealer, anyone that wants one can just call and give their credit card number and *poof* out it goes in the mail.
Ok..... sounds really cool huh? So what's the rub?
Well the bottom line is... YOU (and only you) have to finish the final machining process on it yourself. There are no serial numbers and the firearm (once it is complete) can NEVER.... let me say that again to be sure you understand it... NEVER, EVER be sold to anyone else.... period! It would be a firearm for "personal use only" and the only other living soul that you may legally give it to would be an heir (to your son in your will for instance).
If you build your own firearm in this way, then you are acting as a firearms manufacturer which is perfectly legal as long as it is for personal use only.
QUESTION FROM THE BATF WEB SITE
*Begin ATF quote*
Unfinished Gun Receivers and Blueprints
(A7) Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle?
With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a nonlicensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from making a semiautomatic assault weapon or assembling a nonsporting semiautomatic rifle or nonsporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machinegun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a federal or state agency. [18 U. S. C. 922( o), (r), (v), and 923, 27 CFR 178.39, 178.40, 178.41 and 179.105]
*End BATF quote*
What is the legality of completing an 80% receiver?
The short answer is, if you can legally own a pistol, you can legally complete an 80% pistol frame. Ie, 21 years old, and could pass a 4473 plus background check.
What are the legal ramifications? Do I need an FFL to get one?
No FFL is necessary to purchase or receive an 80% frame. Since an 80% receiver is not considered a gun by law, there is no requirement that you get it from anyone in particular. Until the receiver is completed, it doesn't fall under firearms law. The big sticking point about an 80% receiver is that you, the eventual owner/builder of the firearm, has to complete all of the remaining 20% of the work by yourself. This means your brother Bob, wife, sister, machinist buddy, etc, can't do any of it for you. You, yourself, need to finish it(Note...this may not be wholly correct, but until further info is available, err on the side of caution). This doesn't mean that they can't provide insight, tips, and equipment to you, though. Just make sure that you run the equipment, you use the tips, and you finish it all by yourself. After completing it, you should put a serial number and your name, or some name on it so as to make it identifiable should the need ever arise. However, see the ATF letter above for specific information.
Can I build a Pre-Ban configured AR/AK/etc.?
Unless the 1994 law is repealed you cannot add two or more of the "banned" features to a rifle. I am aware of no receivers of the 80% variety that are pre-ban. You would have to prove that you made your reciever prior to the ban, and also had it configured in a pre-ban manner the whole time.
What about filing out the Form 1?
The ATF form 1 is a subject of much confusion in the home built arena. The quick answer is that Form 1 is for NFA guns. Reference the ATF letter above to see they don't even mention it in regards to a non-NFA firearm (ATF is fond of saying "...is a firearm and a machinegun" to describe NFA items).
Our license could be pulled before it is all over...but at least the ATF has a big spotlight on this and may find it harder to sneak around and do this to other areas. Birmingham has at least four stores dealing with this "four strikes" mess....and if they prevail they will use this everywhere. Closing all FFL retail stores would be a giant gift to the ATF.
Please continue to ask FFL holders if they have heard about this and if they have not....PLEASE TELL THEM WHAT THE ATF IS DOING IN BIRMINGHAM. The more information we can get out about this the better chance we have of stopping them.