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quote:All I can say to that is that sometimes the easy path isn't always the RIGHT path.
True. But also, in time, enough people have come to realize that their best interests include others' best interests. Things are not the same as they were two decades ago. NRA is beginning to understand where compromise is getting them, and you will see a lot less of it, because now the NRA does have something to prove to its members.
Come to a "Gun Rights" forum...
Start talking about how gun control is a good thing..
Then be mad when people take exception to it ?
quote:don't think any two people on this forum agree on anything. In fact, some people here will actually express anger at you if you present a position they don't like
There can be no possibility of retraining a Shumer/Feindstein/Kennedy Socialist a**h*le...unless and until we learn how to retrain GUN PEOPLE that believe in gun control.
One must find a way to break the mind-lock placed by Elitist propaganda...the idea that some gun law can prevent crime.
People that are so desperate for security ought not be allowed to vote.
[:0][:0][:0]
quote:Originally posted by Highball
Come to a "Gun Rights" forum...
Start talking about how gun control is a good thing..
Then be mad when people take exception to it ?
quote:don't think any two people on this forum agree on anything. In fact, some people here will actually express anger at you if you present a position they don't like
There can be no possibility of retraining a Shumer/Feindstein/Kennedy Socialist a**h*le...unless and until we learn how to retrain GUN PEOPLE that believe in gun control.
One must find a way to break the mind-lock placed by Elitist propaganda...the idea that some gun law can prevent crime.
People that are so desperate for security ought not be allowed to vote.
quote:There can be no possibility of retraining a Shumer/Feindstein/Kennedy Socialist a**h*le...unless and until we learn how to retrain GUN PEOPLE that believe in gun control.
You've labeled them properly by calling them sozialists. They are not interested in what is good for everyone. They have no doubt looked at all the evidence present concerning viktim disarmament, and will not change direction on it. The best we can hope for is to drown their voice out, and the damned well die. They can't live forever, you know.
quote:One must find a way to break the mind-lock placed by Elitist propaganda...the idea that some gun law can prevent crime.
People that are so desperate for security ought not be allowed to vote.
You'll hear no argument from me on this one. That is why turning the argument against gun kontrollers is so crucial. The argument needs to go to a different viewpoint, that gun laws are not non-productive, they are counterproductive. What if there was a community where a fluke had occured, and gun kontrol worked? By arguing whether they are helping versus not helping, we lose. By arguing that they are helping versus they are helping criminals, and harming everyone else, who wants to support those who aid and abbet criminals? Not me. By pointing out that gun laws are racist, sexist, homophobic and elitist, who wants to be associated with those types? No one. By calling to the public's attention that the NAACP and the KKK have the exact same stance on disarming blacks, who's the idiots, now? Not us. By encouraging others to take care of themselves rather than be herd animals, who wants to be just another stupid animal? Not any of us.
We have all the cards in our hand to pull off a royal flush.
Let us assume for one moment that gun control STOPPED ALL CRIME IN ITS TRACKS...
Get the picture ?
Now....Gun Control WOULD STILL BE ILLEGAL UNDER THE CONSTITUTION....Unless and until the citizens of this country,by some 30 odd states...RECINDED THE SECOND AMENDMENT....
All that assuming, of course,that we actually had a Supreme Court made up of Americans...and not New World Order types.
However, when you have a court looking to Europe for the basis of its decisions...all bets are off.
quote:Let us assume for one moment that gun control STOPPED ALL CRIME IN ITS TRACKS...
Get the picture ?
Better than you realize. Why, because nothing we do will eliminate crime. Let's assume all guns disappeared. Would we live in a better world? Not by a long shot. Why? Because human nature will not allow it. The weak will succumb to the strong, the one will be at the mercy of many, and the old will be beaten down by the young. The 5'2" 98# woman will be raped by the 6'4" 250# rapist, robbers will be able to attack their victims with less fear, and crime will run rampant, even if no one possessed a gun at all.
The gun is the ultimate equalizer, requiring less strength and skill to use than a knife or sword, and being more portable than any of the weapons of old times.
Makes me wonder why this analogy has not been used, yet.
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
z-z-z-z-z...oh, Hi Pickenup. Have you been posting?
To get back to the subject, my personal opinion is that if the authorities would do nothing more than enforce existing gun laws and prosecute armed criminals, that would be an improvement over what we gun owners are facing now.
What we are facing now is the many of the present gun laws (laws which I generally don't like either, but that alone will not make them go away) are not being enforced. Like prosecuting a criminal when he lies on a for 4473 in an attempt to buy a gun. Or when a gang banger, drive by shooter goes to court, the gun part of his crime is plea bargained away. Now, since so many of the existing gun laws AREN'T being enforced, that only adds fuel to the anti-gunners claim that we need more and more gun laws. So in my opinion, if the authorties started enforcing existing gun laws (hey, those laws are already there, I'm not asking for them to be created) then that might take a lot of wind out of the sails of the anti-gunners as far as them seeming to have good reason to demand more and more gun laws. BTW Pickenup, notice that word I used that you "hate" so much; "that might".
In regards to fully prosecuting armed criminals and maybe (o-o-h-h, there's a "maybe", Pickenup ain't gonna like that) helping to reduce gun crime, gun crime that now makes the average citizen THINK WE NEED MORE GUN LAWS, and maybe getting more violent criminals off the streets and away from my family, well, anyone who can't support that part of LaPierre's plan needs to see the Wizard of OZ and get a brain.
And once some sense and rational thinking was "perhaps" restored to the gun rights wars, "maybe" God Da*n it we could try rolling back as many of those unneeded gun laws as possible.
Of course, it is much easier to get mad at me and rant and rave here on this forum than to try and think things through.
After much agonizing thought, I have come to realize why fox and others are at odds with one another and there seems to be no common ground in the near future. Fox, and I mean this as a compliment, you are too logical, all of your points are good ones if this were a perfect world, it is not and therefore, in my most humble opinion, the source of the inability for all of us to agree is logic. Go figure, all this wasted energy because of logic. It would appear to me that what we have here is an honest to goodness Mexican stand-off, no matter how many posts we make the individual opinions on this matter will not change and this is highly illogical. So what we dealing with is a dichotomy of sorts and it is pointless to continue on this path of self destruction. Let this topic rest or it will be the death of our strength in common goals and aspirations.
The NRA is not a topic that we should discuss any further, you will and for that I am sorry. Sorry because we are chasing the dragon if anyone thinks they are going to say the magic words to change the others opinion, it ain't happenin'. Direct the energy elsewhereand good things may come, continue down this road and this forum is doomed to be nothing more than all the others. A sounding board for misfits and cynics.
That's my two cents take it for what it's worth. comengetit, out!
Perhaps, Comengetit;
However...I no longer post to convince the TrFox's of the world. Decent men, they are unable to believe that they have been deceived by those they trust.
No...I post so that others, not so trusting, can look at other possible answers as to why we suffer under 20,0001 gun laws...and also why "America, the Land of the Free"...IS A LIE.
Misfits..? Perhaps so. I am proud to walk in the trail of those not so famous misfits from a couple hundred years ago..the Founders.
Don't forget, Highball I put myself in this category right along with you and yes I believe the comments are worth their weight in gold but when it comes to the NRA it is a losing battle. I read each of your posts with anticipation of the next great trinket of knowledge you may exude and it is a pleasure to do so but when you continue to bang the same point home over and over about the NRA it cheapens your powers of persuasion. People refer to you alot when posting, I would take that as a great compliment and know that your words are affecting many people in many ways, sometimes good sometimes bad but none-the-less they are affected think about and harness that energy and you may lead a charge once again even though you say you have had enough with the battle in the trenches, true soldiers never quit being a soldier they just change battlefields. comengetit, out!
quote:Originally posted by Comengetit
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
z-z-z-z-z...oh, Hi Pickenup. Have you been posting?
To get back to the subject, my personal opinion is that if the authorities would do nothing more than enforce existing gun laws and prosecute armed criminals, that would be an improvement over what we gun owners are facing now.
What we are facing now is the many of the present gun laws (laws which I generally don't like either, but that alone will not make them go away) are not being enforced. Like prosecuting a criminal when he lies on a for 4473 in an attempt to buy a gun. Or when a gang banger, drive by shooter goes to court, the gun part of his crime is plea bargained away. Now, since so many of the existing gun laws AREN'T being enforced, that only adds fuel to the anti-gunners claim that we need more and more gun laws. So in my opinion, if the authorties started enforcing existing gun laws (hey, those laws are already there, I'm not asking for them to be created) then that might take a lot of wind out of the sails of the anti-gunners as far as them seeming to have good reason to demand more and more gun laws. BTW Pickenup, notice that word I used that you "hate" so much; "that might".
In regards to fully prosecuting armed criminals and maybe (o-o-h-h, there's a "maybe", Pickenup ain't gonna like that) helping to reduce gun crime, gun crime that now makes the average citizen THINK WE NEED MORE GUN LAWS, and maybe getting more violent criminals off the streets and away from my family, well, anyone who can't support that part of LaPierre's plan needs to see the Wizard of OZ and get a brain.
And once some sense and rational thinking was "perhaps" restored to the gun rights wars, "maybe" God Da*n it we could try rolling back as many of those unneeded gun laws as possible.
Of course, it is much easier to get mad at me and rant and rave here on this forum than to try and think things through.
After much agonizing thought, I have come to realize why fox and others are at odds with one another and there seems to be no common ground in the near future. Fox, and I mean this as a compliment, you are too logical, all of your points are good ones if this were a perfect world, it is not
and therefore, in my most humble opinion, the source of the inability for all of us to agree is logic. Go figure, all this wasted energy because of logic. It would appear to me that what we have here is an honest to goodness Mexican stand-off, no matter how many posts we make the individual opinions on this matter will not change and this is highly illogical. So what we dealing with is a dichotomy of sorts and it is pointless to continue on this path of self destruction. Let this topic rest or it will be the death of our strength in common goals and aspirations.
The NRA is not a topic that we should discuss any further, you will and for that I am sorry. Sorry because we are chasing the dragon if anyone thinks they are going to say the magic words to change the others opinion, it ain't happenin'. Direct the energy elsewhereand good things may come, continue down this road and this forum is doomed to be nothing more than all the others. A sounding board for misfits and cynics.
That's my two cents take it for what it's worth. comengetit, out!
A w-h-o-le lot of sense spoken in the comengetit post above. Especially for someone who (I believe) is 41 years young compared to me'[8D]'. Only thing I could add is that frankly I believe my position best describes and tries to deal with the world as we have to relate to it. Yet I have taken so much anger for expressing it.
Surely everyone here would agree with the above statement in red. We DO NOT live in a perfect world. So how can we citizens ever expect to achieve ANY "perfect" rights? Civil rights, employment rights, right to privacy, rights to a perfect legal outcome in a courtroom, "rights" to perfect medical care, or perfect legal representation, or a decent and perfect retirement, "rights" to have our children not be bullied in school, the right to use the highways and not have to suffer because of rude drivers, the "right" to not have to endure worthless, imperfect and sometimes even unconstitional laws, and on and on.
Yet many here demand nothing else than "perfect" gun rights; or if failing that, then the "perfect" battle, organizations and methods to try and achieve those gun rights. I have only lived for the last 63 years and I have never observed perfect gun rights in America. Perhaps at one time such perfect rights existed. But that is not the real and imperfect world we are dealing with now.
So many here seem to despise the word "compromise", yet they themselves are smart enough in that they "compromise" everyday, just to be able to get though the day. There will be such compromises in the posts that follow mine in which the poster disagrees with my position. Their compromise, while not visable, will be that they will self-edit their posts for length and for the level of anger and disagreement they are willing to show in print in a public forum. When they seek medical care they will not demand and seek out the "perfect" physician/medical facility, they will instead "compromise" and go to a place where they have a resonable expectation of reasonabily good medical care.
They will not carefully examine even something as close to them as the laws, rules and regulations imposed upon them by their very own city/town/county; and finding some of those laws to be "imperfect" work to change or remove those laws.
When driving on the highway, those people will willingly "compromise" when the car in front of them is going slower than the posted speed limit and therefore "compromising" their right to go faster.
Yet those same people will angerily demand "perfect" gun rights and perfect pro-gun rights organizations. And they will label me and unnamed "others" as compromisers.
Like Highball, I have little hope for the future of gun rights. However, the two of us have very different reasons. Highball's hope, after years of being disapointed, is that we all fly apart and explode so that we can rebuild a better America. My hope has been that we pro-gunners could treat each other as brothers and come together like a family of brothers and take back our gun rights.
Sadly I have not seen much brotherly love on GB.com
The brotherly love is here and alive and well. I wish I were as young as you think that I am, not sure how to take that, but I would guess that your estimate is based on my inability to control my passion for what I believe in. True! But when I feel strongly about something I will not hold back, ever! I am 41 years old and loving life, yeah rrrriiiiiiight, but anyway moving on fox you do make good points abou compromise however we are not talking about compromising to go to the doctor or what brand of soda to drink, we are talking about our right to self defense and to live under the rights provided us by the Constitution of this once great land and moreover God. Nobody, I mean nobody is going to tell me how to defend the lives of my family, sure it'll be hard to convince the jury that it was necessary for me to empty my AR-15's 40 rnd. mag into the perp but if that is what I felt was necessary, that's what it will be laws or no laws. Each and every warm blooded human being has a right to self-defense and nobody has the right to tell them how they may defend.
My hope has been that we pro-gunners could treat each other as brothers and come together like a family of brothers and take back our gun rights.
Sadly I have not seen much brotherly love on GB.com
Hear, hear! I know I'm not nearly as into all of the gun rights debating that's happening in DC right now, but that's one reason why I read this particular forum. I'm an enlisted soldier in the US Army currently serving in OIF/OEF III in Kuwait, so it's a little difficult for me to activly look for this information that everyone else is putting out.
I'm learning a lot from all of you older (pardon my terminology, I mean it in the best of ways) gun-nuts. But, like trFox said, we SHOULD be siding with one another; not battling between ourselves. With the wealth of knowledge of all of the posters on this forum, we (I only include myself because I'm also on this forum) could be very political if we decided that it would be best for our fellow gun-nuts across the country.
I posted something like this once before, and I still stand by my position.
I'd like to propose an idea, but I need to ask a question first: Is it possible to somehow look up contact information on registered gun owners nationwide?
If so, why don't we put a petition together and send it out to all of the registered gun owners asking their opinion on the big issues that we currently face?
quote:I'd like to propose an idea, but I need to ask a question first: Is it possible to somehow look up contact information on registered gun owners nationwide?
If so, why don't we put a petition together and send it out to all of the registered gun owners asking their opinion on the big issues that we currently face?
Zulu, I know you mean this with the best of intentions, but you have just opened Pandora's Box. [8D]
BTW, I think the last few posts between Comengetit, Highball, and TRFox are absolute jewels. Well done, men. Nothing I can add to them, I agree that it is a philosophical standoff and I don't know which one is better or right.
Given that, I got just one question, where do I go now? I wanna "* r done". I don't wanna fight with all of you anymore, I wanna fight FOR all of you. Where do you want me?
quote:Originally posted by WoundedWolf
quote:I'd like to propose an idea, but I need to ask a question first: Is it possible to somehow look up contact information on registered gun owners nationwide?
If so, why don't we put a petition together and send it out to all of the registered gun owners asking their opinion on the big issues that we currently face?
Zulu, I know you mean this with the best of intentions, but you have just opened Pandora's Box. [8D]
BTW, I think the last few posts between Comengetit, Highball, and TRFox are absolute jewels. Well done, men. Nothing I can add to them, I agree that it is a philosophical standoff and I don't know which one is better or right.
Given that, I got just one question, where do I go now? I wanna "* r done". I don't wanna fight with all of you anymore, I wanna fight FOR all of you. Where do you want me?
-Wolf
Do no harm to, and give as much assistance as you reasonably can, to anybody/any organization that you believe to be more help than harm in the never ending gun rights war.
I would wish to NEVER argue with another gun FRIEND...Brothers of the gun.
Men that carry arms are...different then those that don't.
Brothers.....I wish only that gunmen understand that politicians passing gun laws CANNOT CONTROL CRIME THEREBY...and have no wish to. Their agenda is far different then crime control.
I do not deny reality..I understand the neccessity to live under the tens of thousands of laws we have let slip by. I also understand the attempt to 'soften' law after law..laws that WILL be passed...
I ask only that gunmen realize that gun laws...ALL OF THEM...are evil.
Those promoting gun laws are evil.Those enforcing gun laws are evil...or so hopelessly stupid as to be worthless. Harsh ? People...we are talking about destroying THE MOST IMPORTANT RIGHT WE HAVE...
PLEASE...UNDERSTAND that the way to stop crime is PUNISHMENT...and swift punishment. That and education will do far more then a MILLION new gun laws.
By all means..let us stop arguing among ourselves...but please...let us do it with a real grasp of reality...
By the way....I also understand that crime will never be eradicated...neither with punishment..nor laws. The Human condition prevents such. All we can ask is to reduce the level to a dull roar.
quote:Originally posted by pickenup
Is this kind of what you mean? This is just a sample.
Question;
1. Do you (as gun owners) want the NRA to go on the offence concerning our gun rights? To actively try to roll back some/ALL of the UNCONSTITUTIONAL gun laws, that are on the books today, rather than the semi-defensive position they seem to have assumed? Up to, and including, the laws they wrote, or helped get passed?
2. Do you want the NRA to take a firmer stand (less/no compromising) when it comes to future attacks on our rights?
3. Do you want the NRA to publish a financial accounting statement?
I like it!!!
[:D]
No sooner had I joined the NRA than I figured out that the NRA was showing no intentions of lifting a finger to create a shall-issue CCW policy in Los Angeles County, which is one of the most culturally and politically influential localities on the North American continent.
We 2nd Amendment practitioners have the anti-gun folks on the run.
We need to use that momentum to steamroller forward with the rest of our agenda before our "leaders" get too fat and lazy and start crawling into bed with the opposition (which is what always eventually happens unless the grassroots folks keep them honest--"Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely").
If we can make a big impact here in the heart of the anti-gun territory, that will cause the anti-gun folks to quickly rethink what is even possible, as far as their plans for anti-gun legislation are concerned.
And they're ALWAYS planning something--that you can take to the bank.
I totally agree that we need to start a grassroots campaign to influence what the NRA topdogs do with our money.
quote:Originally posted by Highball
I would wish to NEVER argue with another gun FRIEND...Brothers of the gun.
Men that carry arms are...different then those that don't.
Brothers.....I wish only that gunmen understand that politicians passing gun laws CANNOT CONTROL CRIME THEREBY...and have no wish to. Their agenda is far different then crime control.
I do not deny reality..I understand the neccessity to live under the tens of thousands of laws we have let slip by. I also understand the attempt to 'soften' law after law..laws that WILL be passed...
I ask only that gunmen realize that gun laws...ALL OF THEM...are evil.
Those promoting gun laws are evil.Those enforcing gun laws are evil...or so hopelessly stupid as to be worthless. Harsh ? People...we are talking about destroying THE MOST IMPORTANT RIGHT WE HAVE...
PLEASE...UNDERSTAND that the way to stop crime is PUNISHMENT...and swift punishment. That and education will do far more then a MILLION new gun laws.
By all means..let us stop arguing among ourselves...but please...let us do it with a real grasp of reality...
By the way....I also understand that crime will never be eradicated...neither with punishment..nor laws. The Human condition prevents such. All we can ask is to reduce the level to a dull roar.
As far as all this chest thumping is concerned, I think we could all waste a lot less energy if we clarified at the outset what we were talking about.
Are we talking about "What is the philosophically purest form of 2nd Amendment allegiance?" This is a theoretical question.
Are we talking about "What is the next most effective short-term tactic in a long-term strategy?" This is a practical question about how to put theory into practice (political action).
Are talking about "What is the most effective crime deterrent?"
(Harsher penal measures and/or CCW--these are two separate and unrelated answers to that question, each approaching it from unrelated areas of civic life: legislation and everyday citizenship.)
It seems like the squabbling erupts when the unspoken assumptions are left unstated. Then people start arguing at cross-purposes because they are really talking about two (or more) different things.
A good habit to develop in order to avoid unproductive give-&-take is to stop and restate the original point and resume after refocusing. Or if another point emerges in the discussion, we could post another thread.
Anyway (that was $0.02 worth).
It makes my heart swell with pride and happiness to see everyone all fired up about the 2nd Amendment, but let's expend our spiritedness as carefully as we would our ammunition in a "perilous fight," as F.S. Key called it.
There is real potential for "e-democracy" both with the NRA and our elected officials in the very near future.
There could come a day, thanks to the speed with which we can now communicate, when we could be voting 24/7, sending messages to leaders of influential committees who set policy and agendas, and getting a lot more political satisfaction than ever before.
Being a luddite by nature though not in practice, I tend to scoff at all the communication gadgets used today; but just think what we could be keeping track of and directly influencing in the world of politics.
We just need to get better connected, stay connected, and stay focused and united.
[8D]
The system has beaten gun owners to the tune of 20,000 + gun laws...and millions of other rules,regulations,edicts,taxes....on and on and on.
I believe that without the pressure from the citizens...the slimy politicians will speedily make it impossible to exist in this country without either crawling on your belly...or standing on your feet as a man.
I favor allowing them their brief moment in the sun.
Comments
True. But also, in time, enough people have come to realize that their best interests include others' best interests. Things are not the same as they were two decades ago. NRA is beginning to understand where compromise is getting them, and you will see a lot less of it, because now the NRA does have something to prove to its members.
Start talking about how gun control is a good thing..
Then be mad when people take exception to it ?
quote:don't think any two people on this forum agree on anything. In fact, some people here will actually express anger at you if you present a position they don't like
There can be no possibility of retraining a Shumer/Feindstein/Kennedy Socialist a**h*le...unless and until we learn how to retrain GUN PEOPLE that believe in gun control.
One must find a way to break the mind-lock placed by Elitist propaganda...the idea that some gun law can prevent crime.
People that are so desperate for security ought not be allowed to vote.
quote:Originally posted by Highball
Come to a "Gun Rights" forum...
Start talking about how gun control is a good thing..
Then be mad when people take exception to it ?
quote:don't think any two people on this forum agree on anything. In fact, some people here will actually express anger at you if you present a position they don't like
There can be no possibility of retraining a Shumer/Feindstein/Kennedy Socialist a**h*le...unless and until we learn how to retrain GUN PEOPLE that believe in gun control.
One must find a way to break the mind-lock placed by Elitist propaganda...the idea that some gun law can prevent crime.
People that are so desperate for security ought not be allowed to vote.
You've labeled them properly by calling them sozialists. They are not interested in what is good for everyone. They have no doubt looked at all the evidence present concerning viktim disarmament, and will not change direction on it. The best we can hope for is to drown their voice out, and the damned well die. They can't live forever, you know.
quote:One must find a way to break the mind-lock placed by Elitist propaganda...the idea that some gun law can prevent crime.
People that are so desperate for security ought not be allowed to vote.
You'll hear no argument from me on this one. That is why turning the argument against gun kontrollers is so crucial. The argument needs to go to a different viewpoint, that gun laws are not non-productive, they are counterproductive. What if there was a community where a fluke had occured, and gun kontrol worked? By arguing whether they are helping versus not helping, we lose. By arguing that they are helping versus they are helping criminals, and harming everyone else, who wants to support those who aid and abbet criminals? Not me. By pointing out that gun laws are racist, sexist, homophobic and elitist, who wants to be associated with those types? No one. By calling to the public's attention that the NAACP and the KKK have the exact same stance on disarming blacks, who's the idiots, now? Not us. By encouraging others to take care of themselves rather than be herd animals, who wants to be just another stupid animal? Not any of us.
We have all the cards in our hand to pull off a royal flush.
You have made an EXCELLENT point.
Let us assume for one moment that gun control STOPPED ALL CRIME IN ITS TRACKS...
Get the picture ?
Now....Gun Control WOULD STILL BE ILLEGAL UNDER THE CONSTITUTION....Unless and until the citizens of this country,by some 30 odd states...RECINDED THE SECOND AMENDMENT....
All that assuming, of course,that we actually had a Supreme Court made up of Americans...and not New World Order types.
However, when you have a court looking to Europe for the basis of its decisions...all bets are off.
Get the picture ?
Better than you realize. Why, because nothing we do will eliminate crime. Let's assume all guns disappeared. Would we live in a better world? Not by a long shot. Why? Because human nature will not allow it. The weak will succumb to the strong, the one will be at the mercy of many, and the old will be beaten down by the young. The 5'2" 98# woman will be raped by the 6'4" 250# rapist, robbers will be able to attack their victims with less fear, and crime will run rampant, even if no one possessed a gun at all.
The gun is the ultimate equalizer, requiring less strength and skill to use than a knife or sword, and being more portable than any of the weapons of old times.
Makes me wonder why this analogy has not been used, yet.
z-z-z-z-z...oh, Hi Pickenup. Have you been posting?
To get back to the subject, my personal opinion is that if the authorities would do nothing more than enforce existing gun laws and prosecute armed criminals, that would be an improvement over what we gun owners are facing now.
What we are facing now is the many of the present gun laws (laws which I generally don't like either, but that alone will not make them go away) are not being enforced. Like prosecuting a criminal when he lies on a for 4473 in an attempt to buy a gun. Or when a gang banger, drive by shooter goes to court, the gun part of his crime is plea bargained away. Now, since so many of the existing gun laws AREN'T being enforced, that only adds fuel to the anti-gunners claim that we need more and more gun laws. So in my opinion, if the authorties started enforcing existing gun laws (hey, those laws are already there, I'm not asking for them to be created) then that might take a lot of wind out of the sails of the anti-gunners as far as them seeming to have good reason to demand more and more gun laws. BTW Pickenup, notice that word I used that you "hate" so much; "that might".
In regards to fully prosecuting armed criminals and maybe (o-o-h-h, there's a "maybe", Pickenup ain't gonna like that) helping to reduce gun crime, gun crime that now makes the average citizen THINK WE NEED MORE GUN LAWS, and maybe getting more violent criminals off the streets and away from my family, well, anyone who can't support that part of LaPierre's plan needs to see the Wizard of OZ and get a brain.
And once some sense and rational thinking was "perhaps" restored to the gun rights wars, "maybe" God Da*n it we could try rolling back as many of those unneeded gun laws as possible.
Of course, it is much easier to get mad at me and rant and rave here on this forum than to try and think things through.
After much agonizing thought, I have come to realize why fox and others are at odds with one another and there seems to be no common ground in the near future. Fox, and I mean this as a compliment, you are too logical, all of your points are good ones if this were a perfect world, it is not and therefore, in my most humble opinion, the source of the inability for all of us to agree is logic. Go figure, all this wasted energy because of logic. It would appear to me that what we have here is an honest to goodness Mexican stand-off, no matter how many posts we make the individual opinions on this matter will not change and this is highly illogical. So what we dealing with is a dichotomy of sorts and it is pointless to continue on this path of self destruction. Let this topic rest or it will be the death of our strength in common goals and aspirations.
The NRA is not a topic that we should discuss any further, you will and for that I am sorry. Sorry because we are chasing the dragon if anyone thinks they are going to say the magic words to change the others opinion, it ain't happenin'. Direct the energy elsewhereand good things may come, continue down this road and this forum is doomed to be nothing more than all the others. A sounding board for misfits and cynics.
That's my two cents take it for what it's worth. comengetit, out!
However...I no longer post to convince the TrFox's of the world. Decent men, they are unable to believe that they have been deceived by those they trust.
No...I post so that others, not so trusting, can look at other possible answers as to why we suffer under 20,0001 gun laws...and also why "America, the Land of the Free"...IS A LIE.
Misfits..? Perhaps so. I am proud to walk in the trail of those not so famous misfits from a couple hundred years ago..the Founders.
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
z-z-z-z-z...oh, Hi Pickenup. Have you been posting?
To get back to the subject, my personal opinion is that if the authorities would do nothing more than enforce existing gun laws and prosecute armed criminals, that would be an improvement over what we gun owners are facing now.
What we are facing now is the many of the present gun laws (laws which I generally don't like either, but that alone will not make them go away) are not being enforced. Like prosecuting a criminal when he lies on a for 4473 in an attempt to buy a gun. Or when a gang banger, drive by shooter goes to court, the gun part of his crime is plea bargained away. Now, since so many of the existing gun laws AREN'T being enforced, that only adds fuel to the anti-gunners claim that we need more and more gun laws. So in my opinion, if the authorties started enforcing existing gun laws (hey, those laws are already there, I'm not asking for them to be created) then that might take a lot of wind out of the sails of the anti-gunners as far as them seeming to have good reason to demand more and more gun laws. BTW Pickenup, notice that word I used that you "hate" so much; "that might".
In regards to fully prosecuting armed criminals and maybe (o-o-h-h, there's a "maybe", Pickenup ain't gonna like that) helping to reduce gun crime, gun crime that now makes the average citizen THINK WE NEED MORE GUN LAWS, and maybe getting more violent criminals off the streets and away from my family, well, anyone who can't support that part of LaPierre's plan needs to see the Wizard of OZ and get a brain.
And once some sense and rational thinking was "perhaps" restored to the gun rights wars, "maybe" God Da*n it we could try rolling back as many of those unneeded gun laws as possible.
Of course, it is much easier to get mad at me and rant and rave here on this forum than to try and think things through.
After much agonizing thought, I have come to realize why fox and others are at odds with one another and there seems to be no common ground in the near future. Fox, and I mean this as a compliment, you are too logical, all of your points are good ones if this were a perfect world, it is not
and therefore, in my most humble opinion, the source of the inability for all of us to agree is logic. Go figure, all this wasted energy because of logic. It would appear to me that what we have here is an honest to goodness Mexican stand-off, no matter how many posts we make the individual opinions on this matter will not change and this is highly illogical. So what we dealing with is a dichotomy of sorts and it is pointless to continue on this path of self destruction. Let this topic rest or it will be the death of our strength in common goals and aspirations.
The NRA is not a topic that we should discuss any further, you will and for that I am sorry. Sorry because we are chasing the dragon if anyone thinks they are going to say the magic words to change the others opinion, it ain't happenin'. Direct the energy elsewhereand good things may come, continue down this road and this forum is doomed to be nothing more than all the others. A sounding board for misfits and cynics.
That's my two cents take it for what it's worth. comengetit, out!
A w-h-o-le lot of sense spoken in the comengetit post above. Especially for someone who (I believe) is 41 years young compared to me'[8D]'. Only thing I could add is that frankly I believe my position best describes and tries to deal with the world as we have to relate to it. Yet I have taken so much anger for expressing it.
Surely everyone here would agree with the above statement in red. We DO NOT live in a perfect world. So how can we citizens ever expect to achieve ANY "perfect" rights? Civil rights, employment rights, right to privacy, rights to a perfect legal outcome in a courtroom, "rights" to perfect medical care, or perfect legal representation, or a decent and perfect retirement, "rights" to have our children not be bullied in school, the right to use the highways and not have to suffer because of rude drivers, the "right" to not have to endure worthless, imperfect and sometimes even unconstitional laws, and on and on.
Yet many here demand nothing else than "perfect" gun rights; or if failing that, then the "perfect" battle, organizations and methods to try and achieve those gun rights. I have only lived for the last 63 years and I have never observed perfect gun rights in America. Perhaps at one time such perfect rights existed. But that is not the real and imperfect world we are dealing with now.
So many here seem to despise the word "compromise", yet they themselves are smart enough in that they "compromise" everyday, just to be able to get though the day. There will be such compromises in the posts that follow mine in which the poster disagrees with my position. Their compromise, while not visable, will be that they will self-edit their posts for length and for the level of anger and disagreement they are willing to show in print in a public forum. When they seek medical care they will not demand and seek out the "perfect" physician/medical facility, they will instead "compromise" and go to a place where they have a resonable expectation of reasonabily good medical care.
They will not carefully examine even something as close to them as the laws, rules and regulations imposed upon them by their very own city/town/county; and finding some of those laws to be "imperfect" work to change or remove those laws.
When driving on the highway, those people will willingly "compromise" when the car in front of them is going slower than the posted speed limit and therefore "compromising" their right to go faster.
Yet those same people will angerily demand "perfect" gun rights and perfect pro-gun rights organizations. And they will label me and unnamed "others" as compromisers.
Like Highball, I have little hope for the future of gun rights. However, the two of us have very different reasons. Highball's hope, after years of being disapointed, is that we all fly apart and explode so that we can rebuild a better America. My hope has been that we pro-gunners could treat each other as brothers and come together like a family of brothers and take back our gun rights.
Sadly I have not seen much brotherly love on GB.com
My hope has been that we pro-gunners could treat each other as brothers and come together like a family of brothers and take back our gun rights.
Sadly I have not seen much brotherly love on GB.com
Hear, hear! I know I'm not nearly as into all of the gun rights debating that's happening in DC right now, but that's one reason why I read this particular forum. I'm an enlisted soldier in the US Army currently serving in OIF/OEF III in Kuwait, so it's a little difficult for me to activly look for this information that everyone else is putting out.
I'm learning a lot from all of you older (pardon my terminology, I mean it in the best of ways) gun-nuts. But, like trFox said, we SHOULD be siding with one another; not battling between ourselves. With the wealth of knowledge of all of the posters on this forum, we (I only include myself because I'm also on this forum) could be very political if we decided that it would be best for our fellow gun-nuts across the country.
I posted something like this once before, and I still stand by my position.
I'd like to propose an idea, but I need to ask a question first: Is it possible to somehow look up contact information on registered gun owners nationwide?
If so, why don't we put a petition together and send it out to all of the registered gun owners asking their opinion on the big issues that we currently face?
If not, then just scratch my whole idea.
If so, why don't we put a petition together and send it out to all of the registered gun owners asking their opinion on the big issues that we currently face?
Zulu, I know you mean this with the best of intentions, but you have just opened Pandora's Box. [8D]
BTW, I think the last few posts between Comengetit, Highball, and TRFox are absolute jewels. Well done, men. Nothing I can add to them, I agree that it is a philosophical standoff and I don't know which one is better or right.
Given that, I got just one question, where do I go now? I wanna "* r done". I don't wanna fight with all of you anymore, I wanna fight FOR all of you. Where do you want me?
-Wolf
quote:I'd like to propose an idea, but I need to ask a question first: Is it possible to somehow look up contact information on registered gun owners nationwide?
If so, why don't we put a petition together and send it out to all of the registered gun owners asking their opinion on the big issues that we currently face?
Zulu, I know you mean this with the best of intentions, but you have just opened Pandora's Box. [8D]
BTW, I think the last few posts between Comengetit, Highball, and TRFox are absolute jewels. Well done, men. Nothing I can add to them, I agree that it is a philosophical standoff and I don't know which one is better or right.
Given that, I got just one question, where do I go now? I wanna "* r done". I don't wanna fight with all of you anymore, I wanna fight FOR all of you. Where do you want me?
-Wolf
Do no harm to, and give as much assistance as you reasonably can, to anybody/any organization that you believe to be more help than harm in the never ending gun rights war.
It couldn't be any simpler.
Men that carry arms are...different then those that don't.
Brothers.....I wish only that gunmen understand that politicians passing gun laws CANNOT CONTROL CRIME THEREBY...and have no wish to. Their agenda is far different then crime control.
I do not deny reality..I understand the neccessity to live under the tens of thousands of laws we have let slip by. I also understand the attempt to 'soften' law after law..laws that WILL be passed...
I ask only that gunmen realize that gun laws...ALL OF THEM...are evil.
Those promoting gun laws are evil.Those enforcing gun laws are evil...or so hopelessly stupid as to be worthless. Harsh ? People...we are talking about destroying THE MOST IMPORTANT RIGHT WE HAVE...
PLEASE...UNDERSTAND that the way to stop crime is PUNISHMENT...and swift punishment. That and education will do far more then a MILLION new gun laws.
By all means..let us stop arguing among ourselves...but please...let us do it with a real grasp of reality...
By the way....I also understand that crime will never be eradicated...neither with punishment..nor laws. The Human condition prevents such. All we can ask is to reduce the level to a dull roar.
Is this kind of what you mean? This is just a sample.
Question;
1. Do you (as gun owners) want the NRA to go on the offence concerning our gun rights? To actively try to roll back some/ALL of the UNCONSTITUTIONAL gun laws, that are on the books today, rather than the semi-defensive position they seem to have assumed? Up to, and including, the laws they wrote, or helped get passed?
2. Do you want the NRA to take a firmer stand (less/no compromising) when it comes to future attacks on our rights?
3. Do you want the NRA to publish a financial accounting statement?
I like it!!!
[:D]
No sooner had I joined the NRA than I figured out that the NRA was showing no intentions of lifting a finger to create a shall-issue CCW policy in Los Angeles County, which is one of the most culturally and politically influential localities on the North American continent.
We 2nd Amendment practitioners have the anti-gun folks on the run.
We need to use that momentum to steamroller forward with the rest of our agenda before our "leaders" get too fat and lazy and start crawling into bed with the opposition (which is what always eventually happens unless the grassroots folks keep them honest--"Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely").
If we can make a big impact here in the heart of the anti-gun territory, that will cause the anti-gun folks to quickly rethink what is even possible, as far as their plans for anti-gun legislation are concerned.
And they're ALWAYS planning something--that you can take to the bank.
I totally agree that we need to start a grassroots campaign to influence what the NRA topdogs do with our money.
I would wish to NEVER argue with another gun FRIEND...Brothers of the gun.
Men that carry arms are...different then those that don't.
Brothers.....I wish only that gunmen understand that politicians passing gun laws CANNOT CONTROL CRIME THEREBY...and have no wish to. Their agenda is far different then crime control.
I do not deny reality..I understand the neccessity to live under the tens of thousands of laws we have let slip by. I also understand the attempt to 'soften' law after law..laws that WILL be passed...
I ask only that gunmen realize that gun laws...ALL OF THEM...are evil.
Those promoting gun laws are evil.Those enforcing gun laws are evil...or so hopelessly stupid as to be worthless. Harsh ? People...we are talking about destroying THE MOST IMPORTANT RIGHT WE HAVE...
PLEASE...UNDERSTAND that the way to stop crime is PUNISHMENT...and swift punishment. That and education will do far more then a MILLION new gun laws.
By all means..let us stop arguing among ourselves...but please...let us do it with a real grasp of reality...
By the way....I also understand that crime will never be eradicated...neither with punishment..nor laws. The Human condition prevents such. All we can ask is to reduce the level to a dull roar.
As far as all this chest thumping is concerned, I think we could all waste a lot less energy if we clarified at the outset what we were talking about.
Are we talking about "What is the philosophically purest form of 2nd Amendment allegiance?" This is a theoretical question.
Are we talking about "What is the next most effective short-term tactic in a long-term strategy?" This is a practical question about how to put theory into practice (political action).
Are talking about "What is the most effective crime deterrent?"
(Harsher penal measures and/or CCW--these are two separate and unrelated answers to that question, each approaching it from unrelated areas of civic life: legislation and everyday citizenship.)
It seems like the squabbling erupts when the unspoken assumptions are left unstated. Then people start arguing at cross-purposes because they are really talking about two (or more) different things.
A good habit to develop in order to avoid unproductive give-&-take is to stop and restate the original point and resume after refocusing. Or if another point emerges in the discussion, we could post another thread.
Anyway (that was $0.02 worth).
It makes my heart swell with pride and happiness to see everyone all fired up about the 2nd Amendment, but let's expend our spiritedness as carefully as we would our ammunition in a "perilous fight," as F.S. Key called it.
There is real potential for "e-democracy" both with the NRA and our elected officials in the very near future.
There could come a day, thanks to the speed with which we can now communicate, when we could be voting 24/7, sending messages to leaders of influential committees who set policy and agendas, and getting a lot more political satisfaction than ever before.
Being a luddite by nature though not in practice, I tend to scoff at all the communication gadgets used today; but just think what we could be keeping track of and directly influencing in the world of politics.
We just need to get better connected, stay connected, and stay focused and united.
[8D]
I will restate the obvious.
The system has beaten gun owners to the tune of 20,000 + gun laws...and millions of other rules,regulations,edicts,taxes....on and on and on.
I believe that without the pressure from the citizens...the slimy politicians will speedily make it impossible to exist in this country without either crawling on your belly...or standing on your feet as a man.
I favor allowing them their brief moment in the sun.