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Fourth of July...

HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
Yet another Fourth is upon us...the celebration of the winning of the war of Liberation from England..triumph over tyranny.

Sadly, as the fireworks soar grandly overhead, and the ohhhs and ahhhs echo across the lawns and streets of this nation...not 5 people out of 100 give a thought to what it actually means..partially because in the lifetime of most of us...it has meant little. Freedom ? Exists only in the hearts and minds of a very few..those willing to reject the propaganda of the media and government...those willing to actually THINK about what freedom means.

Freedom is NOT asking permission to buy a gun.
Freedom is NOT asking permission to build a dog house.
Freedom is NOT having your bank records rifled thru at some breaurats whim...
Freedom is NOT 'showing your papers' at the roadblock.

Freedom is NOT having every aspect of your life regulated, ruled, and enforced with a gun..all of which you pay for to the tune of about 65%
taxation..and your Founders went to war over 3% taxes...

Some few of you reading this will discover tears in your eyes tonight, as you watch the displays...tears for those brave hero's...REAL HERO's..that fought and died on battlefields long ago..but also, tears for the funeral of freedom most of those watching don't even know the meaning of.
For you, the few, the proud, the Americans....Have a glorious Freedom Day..knowing that even in the wreckage of that magnificent idea..you know the truth. Bless You.

Comments

  • pickenuppickenup Member, Moderator Posts: 22,391 ******
    edited November -1
    SOOO true.....and SAD.
  • Slow_HandSlow_Hand Member Posts: 2,835
    edited November -1
    On this, America's 230th birthday, I offer the following comment:

    In a Republic such as ours, power is granted to the leaders solely by the people, not the other way around.

    We are not now nor have we ever been a democracy.

    For all of the brave men and women who have fought, sacrificed, died or continue to fight so that we can enjoy everything we have, we, in turn, have the most serious of moral obligations to them and to ourselves of making sure that the leaders we elect to represent us, actually do so to the very best of their abilities and that these leaders keep our great Country on track and on course.

    Shame on every American citizen of voting age who makes the conscious choice to not exercise his or her right to vote on Election Day. No excuse is acceptable.

    IMHO, if you consciously choose to not vote, then you have absolutely no right to b***h about the people who are in charge of running things in our Country later on. Not an option.

    I personally believe it's time for a lot of our fellow Americans to either ante up or shut up.
  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:In a Republic such as ours, power is granted to the leaders solely by the people, not the other way around.


    I think I know where you're going with this, Slow Hand, but by rereading it, do you see the possible confusion in the statement? Did you mean, "In a Republic such as ours, power is granted to the representatives of the people solely by the people; power is not the inherent right of those who claim to "represent" the people, only to decide for them in what they call "the people better interests", and certainly not over "gov't interests"?

    quote:We are not now nor have we ever been a democracy.


    Have any of you ever noticed the propagandists' notion to attempt to turn the meanings of the words "Democracy" and "Freedom" into synonymous terms? They are not by any stretch, and some could actually argue that one is the antithesis of the other.

    quote:For all of the brave men and women who have fought, sacrificed, died or continue to fight so that we can enjoy everything we have, we, in turn, have the most serious of moral obligations to them and to ourselves of making sure that the leaders we elect to represent us, actually do so to the very best of their abilities and that these leaders keep our great Country on track and on course.


    Yeah, every time we screw this up, we put ourselves further and further into the pit.

    quote:Shame on every American citizen of voting age who makes the conscious choice to not exercise his or her right to vote on Election Day. No excuse is acceptable.


    Now certainly, Slow Hand, you don't think voting is the solution, do you? If voting could change anything, it would be illegal.

    quote:IMHO, if you consciously choose to not vote, then you have absolutely no right to b***h about the people who are in charge of running things in our Country later on. Not an option.

    Areal-life example of how voting in a rigged election does not change anything; in my state, Ohio, the Senatorial election will be held this November. The candidates: Incumbent Republikan Mike D-Whine will square off against Demonkrat Sherrod Brown. As a voter, and a gun owner, neither of them will represent my views here, and have both consistently voted against such propositions. Both would be endorsed by the Brady Bunch, and as such, my vote will be for Larry the Cable Guy.

    quote:I personally believe it's time for a lot of our fellow Americans to either ante up or shut up.

    I agree, but if you intend on doing so, don't bother if it is going to be a half-measure. That would be my opinon and recommendation.
  • dsmithdsmith Member Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It is sad how far this country has fallen. Highball, Slow Hand and Gunphreak have posted valid comments here.

    Highball, one thing we need to remind each other of is that all is not lost yet. The government has by far outstreched its reach, but as the failure of prohibition and drug laws has shown us, it is impossible to hold any American to a law they don't agree with. Don't give up.
  • codenamepaulcodenamepaul Member Posts: 2,931
    edited November -1
    I watch fireworks and eat hot dogs on the 4th of July. Every April 19 at 0200 I leave the house with my children. I arrive at about 0330 at a patch of grass in Concord. I wait tensely for the guts it took to take that first shot.

    I follow the troops to Lexington and across the Old North Bridge.
    I wish....
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,837
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by gunphreak
    Have any of you ever noticed the propagandists' notion to attempt to turn the meanings of the words "Democracy" and "Freedom" into synonymous terms? They are not by any stretch, and some could actually argue that one is the antithesis of the other.



    Ive noticed it a lot coming out of the orifices of our fearless leader- George Bush. He uses the two terms interchangeably quite often when refering to the freedom spreading we are doing in the middle east.

    I had the good fortune of working in Atlantic City New Jersey this entire 4th weekend. The big news, is that Jersey is shutting down their government, because they cant agree on a budget. The governor wants to raise the sales tax 1%, and the house wants to keep it the way it is. As far as bloated state governments, nothing rivals Jersey. And as far as taxes nothing rivals Jersdey. And the best solution those idiots come up with to "fix" their ridiculous big government, is to yet again raise taxes. And to think we went to war over a tax that wasnt much more than a cent. And what the folks in Jersey are worried about, is not the excessive spending, not the excessive taxes-but they are scared the government is going to close down. No lottery, no gambling, no parks, none of the wonderful things big brother provides. Of course, only "non essential" programs will cease. Personally, everything the government choses to stick its business in, should be "essential".
    They are still collecting tolls on the road. THey will still have their police force out there writing tickets. They will still provide subsidized health care. They will still be collecting taxes in every corner, and every crevice of the state.
    And are the people worried, are they going to revolt over the fact that the government got itself in this mess? No, they pray that big brother will find a way to keep churning- and keep the casinos, the lottery, and the parks going.
    The founders must be laughing.
    Happy fourth of July.
  • Slow_HandSlow_Hand Member Posts: 2,835
    edited November -1
    quote:Areal-life example of how voting in a rigged election does not change anything; in my state, Ohio, the Senatorial election will be held this November. The candidates: Incumbent Republikan Mike D-Whine will square off against Demonkrat Sherrod Brown. As a voter, and a gun owner, neither of them will represent my views here, and have both consistently voted against such propositions. Both would be endorsed by the Brady Bunch, and as such, my vote will be for Larry the Cable Guy.

    Yes, I can see where that one particular race may be a problem, but there are, no doubt, other races for other offices, the sheriff, the District Attorney, and numerous local and state judges that are more clearcut and therefore not as problematic.

    Not casting a vote for a candidate in one particular contest on the ballot is not the same as not getting up out of the chair and driving to the polling places to vote for any or all of the other ones. The latter is the greater problem that America faces. Disdain for the platforms of two candidates in one race should not pre-empt one from making an informed choice between all of the others.

    Also, voters have to become more informed about "recall" elections as was done in California several years ago. There's no greater message sent to politicians everywhere than the embarrassment and infamy that results from one of their own being recalled out of an office he or she was elected to serve in.

    Lastly, I believe that strict term limits MUST be established for every Senator and Representative in the Legislative Branches of both the State and Federal governments.
  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Ive noticed it a lot coming out of the orifices of our fearless leader- George Bush. He uses the two terms interchangeably quite often when refering to the freedom spreading we are doing in the middle east.


    Ahh, salzo. Always good to hear your typing in these posts.

    Well, fellows, that's at least one other who has noticed it!!

    quote:Yes, I can see where that one particular race may be a problem, but there are, no doubt, other races for other offices, the sheriff, the District Attorney, and numerous local and state judges that are more clearcut and therefore not as problematic.


    If I sound like I am condescending, here, I don't mean to, but there really is no other effective way I can think of to point out to you that this is an example of what you get from some elections. True, there are other elections I will be seriously voting on come November, but what should happen if all elections turn out to be rigged. I hear a lot of folks saying they are "voting the lesser of two evils" a lot these days. I also tend to agree that voting is a form of redress. if we do not at least attempt to redress gov't for its wronGodoings against the people, we start losing ground on making it look like we tried to do it civilly, and should we have to fight our gov't the same way, we need to be able to say "We tried it peacefully and you didn't listen."

    quote:Not casting a vote for a candidate in one particular contest on the ballot is not the same as not getting up out of the chair and driving to the polling places to vote for any or all of the other ones. The latter is the greater problem that America faces. Disdain for the platforms of two candidates in one race should not pre-empt one from making an informed choice between all of the others.


    That would be correct, but my thought would be, if a political analyst could check out the votes cast and look for patterns, they may find a lot of people who are voting pro-gun on all candidates, while voting against a traditionally pro-gun (but clearly not) partied person, it may be able to serve as a redress, and show the winner how it was he made it into office, and a good indication that, next time around, he'll be ejected if he votes the wrong way, he might learn.

    quote:Also, voters have to become more informed about "recall" elections as was done in California several years ago. There's no greater message sent to politicians everywhere than the embarrassment and infamy that results from one of their own being recalled out of an office he or she was elected to serve in.


    And how many times did this happen? Once that I can recall. Red Davis was recalled in Kommiefornia, because, despite the fact that he made gun kontrol a winner, he also entirely screwed up the economy of the state.

    quote:Lastly, I believe that strict term limits MUST be established for every Senator and Representative in the Legislative Branches of both the State and Federal governments.

    So that, in their last term, when they no longer have to kiss the rear ends of their so-called "constituents" they can pass any number of kommie laws and not have to worry about the consequences arising from not being elected next term? I don't know if that is such a great idea.

    An easy way to remove traitors from office might be a more useful tool for the job.
  • Slow_HandSlow_Hand Member Posts: 2,835
    edited November -1
    Well, at least we seem to agree that the solution is not going to be an easy one nor is it about to happen any time soon. The wheels of government continue to turn, albeit usually slowly, sometimes hesitatingly and oftentimes in reverse.[;)]
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Slow Hand;
    I have been dreading the reply I feel I must make to your post. I fear the fragile bridge of understandimg is about to be torpedo-bombed out of existance.....

    35 years ago, voting was everything you say it is..and it was a duty, besides.
    Today...decent, honorable people such as yourself are unable to comprehend how far the garbage has corrupted the political and business processes in thois country. Your brains are not hard-wired to understand how someone could work to make America into a third-world country..this is NOT an accusation of your intelligence..merely the fact that a normal person cannot follow the thought processes of a mass murderer...we just cannot do it.
    Only by immersing oneself over a long period of time can a normal person finally understand the goals of these madmen.

    I believe that today, citizens that vote are showing their continuing support for corruption...you, Sir, are showing that the Elites have nothing to fear..that they are still in control. You, Sir, with your continuing support for corruption...have no right to complain about the steady erosion of freedoms and rights...
    Let me close with a story from a local doctor that went to Washington as a Representitive..along with 75 new Reps...they were going to change the world...at least the Washington part of it. They held meeting and agreed to fight the established elites.

    Within two years...he came back and said that there were only 10-11 left out of the 75 that wern't bought off...and his second term he came back saying that it was hopeless.(He self-termed out at two terms)
    (I edit this to explain that really..I think EVERYBODY has the right to complain..it is one of the most basic of Human rights.)
  • Slow_HandSlow_Hand Member Posts: 2,835
    edited November -1
    Well, Highball, I do respect your right to that opinion but I feel that the alternative you envision is a rather bleak and grim one. Forgive me if I do not see things as dark, stark, cut'n'dried and hopeless as you might see them. I remain cautiously optimistic.

    Do you know that cancer patients are taught to think positively? To continually focus their mental energies on getting better during treatment? This shift in thinking away from the illness and towards healing helps increase the success of the treatments as well as the victims' chances of cure and longterm remission.

    There is a process in place here in America - elections - that has, unfortunately, deteriorated over the decades and no longer serves the public trust quite the way it was intended. Agreed.

    It's sick but not anywhere near death.

    Voting is the only legal and civilized process that we as Americans have at our disposal to bring about change and make a difference. Anything else anyone envisions is both draconian and doomed to failure.

    Many are incredibly impatient about solving our Country's problems through due process. That's too bad because the actual changes we envision as being necessary will probably not come about in our lifetime and possibly not in our children's lifetimes! Change is constant, it is inevitable and it can also be excruciatingly slow. Just go outside your house and watch a tree grow for an hour. It may be imperceptible to your eyes, but rest assured that it has grown.

    I've posted this numerous times before but I'm afraid it's falling upon deaf ears. The clock continues to tick no matter what happens and time can be our ally if we choose to see opportunity instead of futility.

    The Bible tells us that it is "Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness". I'm not saying that this change is going to be easy to bring about or that it will happen any time soon. But, it's definitely not impossible.
  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Well, Highball, I do respect your right to that opinion but I feel that the alternative you envision is a rather bleak and grim one. Forgive me if I do not see things as dark, stark, cut'n'dried and hopeless as you might see them. I remain cautiously optimistic.


    I think it is not futile, myself, but I also think the answer does not lie solely in voting. That's what your civics teacher wants you to believe, but I think his job is clouded in the fact that he is supposed to make students docile, and encourage them to "think independently", meanwhile, attempting to hardwire your brain to accept certain things as acceptible, when in fact they are abbhorent.

    quote:Do you know that cancer patients are taught to think positively? To continually focus their mental energies on getting better during treatment? This shift in thinking away from the illness and towards healing helps increase the success of the treatments as well as the victims' chances of cure and longterm remission.


    Positivity is a good thing. If not done with at least the hope of getting done, it becomes a half-measure.

    quote:Voting is the only legal and civilized process that we as Americans have at our disposal to bring about change and make a difference. Anything else anyone envisions is both draconian and doomed to failure.


    Actually, you would be wrong on that. It is one way to do things, but influencing politicians is an ongoing thing, a struggle if you wish to call it that. Other ways would be to write your congresscritter, but keep it short, because chances are, he won't read it. Write articles and letters to the local news editor, but this is another one of those things you have to watch how often you do, because they may not be able to print your letter. Joining a gun group is perhaps the most likely candidate. Although the NRA is a group that makes modest sweeps toward the fighting of gun laws and such, it is also the one with the highest notoriety, and as such, may create some resistance.

    quote:I've posted this numerous times before but I'm afraid it's falling upon deaf ears. The clock continues to tick no matter what happens and time can be our ally if we choose to see opportunity instead of futility.


    Although you are right, it is also our enemy. When events like 9/11 occur, time is on our side. When things like the USA Gestapo Akt occur, it has been turned against us.

    quote:The Bible tells us that it is "Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness". I'm not saying that this change is going to be easy to bring about or that it will happen any time soon. But, it's definitely not impossible.

    The Bible says lots of things. To be sure, it also tells us that resistance to tyranny is obedience to God (if you're a Protestant, like I am). I am not one who preaches violent revolt, but I am all for civil disobedience.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    quote:rather bleak and grim one. Forgive me if I do not see things as dark, stark, cut'n'dried and hopeless
    Defeated, given up, whipped...the list of motives and and my personal state of mind has been ascribed to me over the years by those still believing in the process.

    Let us go back 230 years. Do you truly believe that those men were "All the above", going into 1773-1774 ? They had finally faced the facts..there was no hope of changing King Georges' mind.

    While we are not yet at the point of no return...the Elites have no intension of relinquishing control.

    I merely serve the purpose of shouting.."The British are Coming"..Alas, because there are us...my warnings fall on deaf ears.

    YES..I DO believe that the process is broken...beyond repair. However..I also believe that the founders told us how to fix it...and after the fix, the future is once again gloriously bright.

    The truly marrrvoluse thing about it is...The ONLY action needed to bring about total breakdown of the rotten corruption of the established system..is for decent people to withdraw from it !! Given their head..convinced that they have perverted and corrupted the total population..the slime bags running things will pass one or more laws that NO AMERICAN can live with....
  • shootstrightshootstright Member Posts: 342 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    With 80 million gun owners and only 4 million NRA members .
    With only 50 % of the people that can vote do so.
    With only 24 % of the people that could vote , voted Clinton in to the Whitehouse , you better believe your vote counts.
    As for term limits , one term one time only. Do the job and go home . The founding fathers didn't intend for them to be there for 40 or 50 years.
    Fat chance of that happening .[8D]
  • WoundedWolfWoundedWolf Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I drink a lot, and have recently taken up smoking.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    shootstright posted;
    quote:With only 24 % of the people that could vote , voted Clinton in to the Whitehouse , you better believe your vote counts.

    There lies the crux of the matter. Yet another person beliving that "Frick" is 'better', somehow, then "Frack"...

    Not willing to understand that BOTH work to destroy Americans' freedoms..just using different methods and strategies.

    One finally achieves a certain level of understanding..the knowlege that the Elites have an agenda, and that agenda has absolutely nothing to do with freedom for the masses...and from that point, the fog of mis-information that surrounds us immediatly starts to clear a little.
    O0ne realizes..if the elites are talking..they are lying.
  • Slow_HandSlow_Hand Member Posts: 2,835
    edited November -1
    A few more thoughts....

    Voting is definitely not a panacea and won't cure all of the ills but it is a start - a first step - for looking more closely at the platform of candidates not rooted in the two dominating parties.

    Putting aside the particular individual and the issues of that period, Ross Perot proved that he could make a huge dent in the process and get the attention of the other candidates. Some people laughed when he pulled out graphs and charts but the polls tell a different story.

    Sometimes winning an election is not nearly as important or impactful as the message the voters deliver. Sometimes.

    Without a modicum of faith and a glimmer of hope, we are soundly defeated by our own resignation and the future is "a fait accompli". When that happens, the battle is over and we have lost.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    quote:Without a modicum of faith and a glimmer of hope,
    You may continue to carry the water for corrupt, slimy politicians. I, on the other hand, will continue to shout out the message that the system is broken...that the solution of voting is over..at least for this go-round.
    quote:we are soundly defeated by our own resignation and the future is "a fait accompli". When that happens, the battle is over and we have lost.
    YOU, my friend...and those that insist on putting all their faith in the broken system..perhaps are lost.

    I... and many others..are invigorated by the continuing decline in public and the elites morality and patriotism...realizing that the system is so far down..nothing save what the Founders did can bring it back.
    I remain content to merely document the decline..an interested observer to what happens when a good people go bad.

    Perhaps nothing will transpire in my life time. I will regret that..but SOMEDAY..the people of this country will have had enough.
  • Slow_HandSlow_Hand Member Posts: 2,835
    edited November -1
    Highball, I believe I read a post wherein you stated that you were an "old grizzled Marine".

    First and foremost, thank you for serving our country.

    Second, you're pulling our collective chain when you allude to "giving up" and just sitting back. I don't believe you know how to give up.

    You Are A Marine and I can only assume that an "old grizzled Marine" is a da*n good one - case closed, 'nuff said.

    You may gripe, b***h, p*ss and moan about everything - as I myself very often do - but you simply won't give up. And that, friend, is what makes a Marine a Marine.

    I'll buy that you're disenchanted, disappointed, frustrated, p*ssed off, angry and fed up but YOU WILL NEVER, EVER GIVE UP. It's just not in a Marines' vocabulary.

    Keep hammerin' my "grizzled" friend. It's not as hopeless as it may sometimes seem. The light at the end of the tunnel we see may not be the 5:14 out of Kankakee.[:)]
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Slow Hand;

    Giving up ?..never happen. Freedom is too precious for such an exercise in selfishness.

    What most people cannot understand...is that rejecting the rotten political system is not 'giving up'..not in ANY sense of the word. Refusing to fight on the enemies turf, in favor of a more suitable one...that is what I work for in these discussions.

    One at a time..that is all that I ask. One at a time, decent people fully understanding the problem...and how to fix it.
  • Slow_HandSlow_Hand Member Posts: 2,835
    edited November -1
    Fair enough then, Highball.

    We may - and most assuredly will - disagree on a lot of things and we will no doubt go 'round and 'round on this forum.

    Just know that I do respect you as a man, your service as a U.S. Marine and your ardent fervor for what you believe in regardless of whether I agree or disagree with you.

    Not everyone will dig their heels in deep, hunker down for the long haul and fight for what he or she believes in.

    'Til the next topic then.[:)]
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Thr beauty of discussion between independent thinkers.

    Given where you were, say, 30 years ago...and where you are now...you have made much further progress then I, in critically thinking thru the subject at hand.
    I was raised wild, in the woods..and even tho my dad despised guns..I was handed one at about ten years of age, by a brother-in-law...and I never looked back.

    Thinking about the ramifications of freedom started about then...but it started at a level of almost total freedom, compared to today....

    I admire the progress you have written about...that which has made you the man you are today.
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