In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
Suppose mandatory gun registration....then what?
Rack Ops
Member Posts: 18,596 ✭✭✭
I have a bad feeling we're only a few election cycles away from full gun registration, maybe only a few months away from a new "assualt weapons" bill. My gut says Bush would veto it, or at the very least Pro-gun senators would fillibuster it, but I could very well be wrong.
So my question is this. What do you do at that point? I doubt they'll be going door-to-door collecting them, at least not for a while. We'll be asked to register the the ones we have then told we can keep them. Collection will come further down the road, I think.
Once you register the gun, there's no going back. "They" know what you own. You can't say "I sold it" anymore. On the other hand, once you miss the registration deadline, there's no going back either (unless you're waiting for an ammnesty). Keeping something like that in the house, even in a safe, is a good way to find yourself in prison.
What are the other options?
So my question is this. What do you do at that point? I doubt they'll be going door-to-door collecting them, at least not for a while. We'll be asked to register the the ones we have then told we can keep them. Collection will come further down the road, I think.
Once you register the gun, there's no going back. "They" know what you own. You can't say "I sold it" anymore. On the other hand, once you miss the registration deadline, there's no going back either (unless you're waiting for an ammnesty). Keeping something like that in the house, even in a safe, is a good way to find yourself in prison.
What are the other options?
Comments
I'm not as interested in WHAT you are going to do, since no one really knows till the time comes.....what I want to know is HOW you'd like to do it.
Think of this as an intellecual exercise.
If you're going to sell them, I guess thats all you have to say...
Active resistance is an option, but I honestly don't think shooting at passing police cars after a gun registration bill passes is going to accomplish much, other than getting yourself killed. Few, if any, would fight or kill to keep from registering their AR-15. I think more would be accomplished by waiting for the confiscation we know would soon follow
But if you think burying them is a good idea, how?
If you think hiding them in your house is a good idea, how?
Any other ideas are welcome
I don't want specifics or even what you think is the best idea....I'm just looking for ideas to chew on
In a nation that has this many gun owners, and a good percentage of people who are somewhat pro-gun, full registration would mean the end of many politicians careers, especially in rural states.
What seems much more likely is a "covert" registration attempt. When a background check is performed on you, the feds know it as they are administering it. The Form 4's and records are supposed to be discarded after 7 days or thereabouts, but who knows if they actually do.
What I believe will happen is this: The politicans will talk of "irresponsible" gun dealers and pass laws to punish them. They will then use every mistake the gun dealer makes to build a case for revoking his FFL. Once the FFL has been revoked, the dealer is forced out of business, possibly even facing criminal prosecution. His bound book of transactions, which he is required to keep, is then in the hands of the ATF. The ATF would then have a record of every person who has bought a gun from that dealer. If the person who bought the gun, now worried about his privacy hides the gun, and the ATF shows up at his house asking where it is, he can tell them he sold it. However, this might bring up accusations of straw purchases, and the like.
I don't believe there are any easy answers. As to what we would do, I can't really say. I'm sure many would be quick to spout off something like "They'd shoot all the police that come to their house", etc. That is nothing but bluffing and wishful thinking on their part. One can not really know if they would resist tyranny unless they were put on the spot, and really having to make a firm decision. We can't truly know what our actions would be unless we were forced into the decision.
I have several neighbors that are very pro-firearm. One has an FFL and one even has a Class 3. I think if this law was enacted, there would be some deep conversations with these folks about what arrangements could be made in case the JBTs pulled up one day to "confiscate" our weapons. Are you going to stand idley by while the first of your neighbors gets his door knocked in, knowing that your door will probably be next? Besides, in this state, they would have to devote about every law enforcement person to sifting through those dealer records to find out who DOESN'T own a gun.
And finally, if worse comes to worse, you can still buy a blackpowder Uberti Colt 1851 Navy revolver online from Cabela's, shipped to your home, no background check or anything. You can also buy a Colt 1851 Navy conversion cylinder that will allow it to shoot regular .38 Special centerfire cartridges, shipped to your home, no background check. It seems that the JBTs haven't figured this one out yet. Get yours while you still can, costs you about $400 after shipping and everything. No record on file.
-Wolf
I guess you're leaning more towards a "community" or group centered approach. Thats fine, but it also sounds like you plan on waiting till something actually happens until even begining to discuss things with your neighbors. They are, of course, your neighbors so I'm fully aware that you know them better than I do. It just doesn't seem to me that much could be accomplished by "winging it" if that time ever came.
On the other this isn't something I feel very comfortable discussing with anyone around me in any meaningful fashion. For example, I don't plan on going over to my neighbor's house for a BBQ and telling him "Well Mike, if the Government ever forces gun confiscations on us I'll bury a bunch of guns and ammo underneath the tool shed in my backyard, and we can dig 'em up and shoot the b**tards later". Basically, the more people who are "in" on your plan, the more likely someone is to tell the FBI you are a domestic terrorist.
Besides, the original question wasn't what to do in the event of gun confiscation (a subject beat to death in the "would you fight" thread) but rather how to handle a "grey area" of mandatory registration?
Knowing how slowly the wheels of government turn, I suspect that all of the gun sales as of a certain point in time will automatically be registered, fairly transparent to all purchasers. On the back end, I think the last known owner of every gun ever purchased that is available through databases and hard copy records will receive an official survey form as to the ownership or disposition of the gun. They will want that in writing. Each survey form will have the serial number of the weapon on it. Lastly, we'll have X months in which to voluntarily register however many guns we each own. And, after that, you get arrested for any unregistered guns.
You keep your nose clean...you don't even get a traffic ticket.
You wait some more. The day will come......
Its going to be a lonely fight if thats your choice. Joe the Duck Hunter won't fight to keep from registering his grandaddy's shotgun, but he might if someone tries to take it away. The same with those who got their CCW permit. They're used to being licenced and registered, they don't know any better. Only when they see it as losing the means to protect themselves and their families will any of them come over to our side.
This is simply added for discussion purposes.
In 1934 "The National Firearms Act" (NFA) was passed. Requiring registration of "previously LEGAL" firearms. There was an amnesty period from July 26 until September 24 of that year to register any machineguns in your possession.
In 1968 "The Gun Control Act" was passed. In it, was AGAIN, a required registration of NFA firearms. There was another amnesty period from 11-02-68 until 12-01-68 to register the firearms. Finally, in 1975 ATF initially reported that over 60,000 firearms were registered during that amnesty period.
If the NFA in 1934 "required" ALL machine guns to be registered, how is it that over 60,000 "previously unregistered" NFA firearms were registered in 1968?
I would venture a guess that (not counting war trophies) some people just plain ignored the 1934 required registration. Them, or their descendants, seized the opportunity to avoid any legal problems, by taking advantage of the 1968 amnesty.
I have read MANY stories over the years, of little old ladies bringing in a bazooka, hand grenades, machineguns, etc. to a local police station when she found them tucked away in the corner of a garage or some such place after her spouse had passed away.
If you want to see the future of firearm legislation, just look to California, New York, and similar state laws. Laws that are ALREADY on the books. Don't say it can't happen here. IT ALREADY HAS. Who, in those states, actively rebelled against these draconian laws when they were passed? How many died defending their right to keep and bear arms?
As for confiscation, for the foreseeable future, we will go through the same as Canada and Australia did. (for the most part) The government will make a law, thousands will turn them in. Possibly hundreds of thousands. That's it.
Possibly baring possession of a class III firearm, I don't believe they have the manpower, nor the inclination, to start a civil war. They will simply sit back and wait. Using every opportunity to prosecute citizens when firearms are found to be in their possession. Firemen, welfare workers, UPS, postal employees, appliance/utility installation or repair personnel, delivery people, FAMILY members, babysitters, housecleaners, etc. will be "rewarded" for information leading to the arrest and conviction of persons suspected of possessing firearms.
P.S.
FYI. As a side note, for those that say the NRA was NOT active in firearms legislation up until fairly recently.
The NRA was active in relation to federal (and state) legislation in 1932 when they helped several states to create the "Uniform Machinegun Act." An Act which REQUIRED REGISTRATION of machine guns, albeit on a state level. PRECEDING the federal registration of NFA firearms in 1934.
Is it reasonable to assume that every firearm purchased with the current ATF/FBI paperwork form is actually "registered" in a roundabout way? And that the Feds would share gun databases and info with State LE agencies? Just curious here.
Yes on both questions
Since then..I know several dealers that have had their records copied by BATF agents. I am convinced that a huge percentage of the guns sold in the last 20 years are in computer right now.
The number continues to climb as tens of thousands of dealers were forced out of business in the last ten years...and personal trading falls off every day....many people being afraid to sell privately any more.
Is it reasonable to assume that every firearm purchased with the current ATF/FBI paperwork form is actually "registered" in a roundabout way? And that the Feds would share gun databases and info with State LE agencies? Just curious here.
That's frightening.
All it would take is one hacker to get a list of gun owners addresses, and the criminals would then know which homes are undefended.
And never oppose a law by force. And unless you have pictures, I will deny ever doing anything. If you have pictures, I will loudly proclaim they are clever forgeries.
If you don't oppose by force, how do you go about it?
All they need is a sympathic judge to issue a warrent
Go to the graveyards and tell that to the Founders, please...they might be interested in knowing how little their sacrifices mean to America today.
Laws, my friend..resisted with FORCE...grew the America you live in today. Just because we lack the balls today to resist...doesn't change the facts that there will indeed come a time that there is no other recourse..and we the few will win...or die.
The day comes that the Beast wins against the 3%...you will on that day lose all rights, all freedoms, all hope....because that 3 % is all that stands between freedom....and tyranny.
Guns in the hands of citizens have kept what tiny residue of freedom that remains in America...not the NRA, not the Courts, not the Administration, not the media. All those entities are working tirelessly to restrict, tighten up, and reduce your freedoms.
Fight hard, stick with your family and friends and don't ever give up. God help us.[V]
The other problem I see is that we are continually being divided and conquered. They take someone else's rights away and we stand by and think "I don't care, I don't own that kind of gun anyway." Ever hear the saying "They came for the Catholics, but I wasn't Cathiolic so I said nothing. Then they came for the Protestants, but I wasn't Protestant so I said nothing. Then they came for the Jews, but I wasn't Jewish so I said nothing. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak for me.
This is so true. Walmart plans to build 5 miles from your home and the people in that area fight it but lose. How many people form outside of that area go to help fight? Nobody. Because "It's not in my neighborhood, so that's ok". Or they pass anti smoking laws and "I don't smoke so that's ok." Or they pass laws in Fairfax, VA allowing people to be arrested in bars for being drunk, and we say "I don't live in Fairfax so what do I care?" And on & on it goes.
Why do we stand by and allow ourselves to be divided? Bit by bit we will lose the fight unless we show that we are willing to fight for someone ELSE'S rights. Because even if we are not directly affected, you can bet your bottom dollar that we will be indirerctly affected and eventually, directly affected.
Frankly , why care if "They" know you own it . The last thing this country is going to do is start ANOTHER door to door confiscation , its happened before with ugly results in New York City but you wont read that in any paper . Until then if you would want to have a so-called stash (say in a pvc pipe tube sealed) just incase the British attack again or some other strange govt. then get it now and forget about it until you need it .
Simple, because registration is a prelude to confiscation 100% of the time. That is its only function.
Their little confiscation events now are leading up to a bigger one later, they just want to practice on it, first.
Spoken like a true "I begged the goverment, and the goverment won" full-auto owner.
They all got cold feet when the Clinton's BATF called and intimidated them into giving up there FFL's . This action was supported by the brick and mortar dealers to drive out the so called kitchen table dealers. Turning one gun person against another. The guys and gals that made part of there living (a part time job) as a FFL were made to look like evil gun dealers. The b&m guys hurt themselves because guns are discounted so much that they are a lo profit item. The guys that bought firearms from a kitchen table dealer was coming to the b&m stores to buy the scopes, rings ,slings and ammo the high mark up items .
This fact has been in print in the trade mags which most of you don't see.
As for the big plan to get most states a CC law this is one of the backdoor forms of registration the NIC's check is another. And like has already been said , the files of the out of bis. FFL's . Congress has already told the BATF that they can't do that and the BATF was suppose to destroy all that they had done. As we all know once a file is on a computer there are ways to retrieve them , so much for that.
The domestic violence thing by Sen Frank Lautenberg removed one more class of people from the rolls of gun owners. The next step will be misdemeanors , a DWI or speeding ticket.
Before gun control when a citizen got out of jail after serving his time he was given back his guns so he could protect himself.
My states constitution states that " To keep and bear arms. EVERY CITIZEN has a right to keep and bear arms and this right SHALL NEVER BE QUESTIONED."
Note the words --EVERY CITIZEN.
Yet they make us apply for a CW permit. They do background check to see if we can be trusted. The country is being invaded by people who are breaking the laws of this land and our government looks the other way because it suits them. Until the people stand up and do it together we will all sooner or later be in the same boat , gun owner and non gun owners alike. The USA is a sinking ship that has not taken on enough water to know it is sinking yet. We need to start bailing out the Kennedy's, Clinton's, lautenberg's Bloomberg and Chaffee types before the ship sinks. U all have a nice day . [8D]
Your Republicans have been in charge for what...12 years ? Seen any more FFL dealers, because the laws have been relaxed ? Seen any gun laws canned that didn't have a Sunset provision ?
Your president put increased funding into the BATF....CREATED 700 Gun Judges..their entire workload is gun=law violations...stated that the Second Amendment is an individual 'Right'...then in the next breath called himself a lier, stating "We are going to enforce Federal Gun Laws"..
One has to be stupid or insane to reconcile those two statements made back-to-back in the same speech....
One thing we are in total agreement on...the Democrats are lying,sleezy degenerates.
The thing I am attempting to do is...educate you that the Republicans are, also.
Neither give a thin damn about America...have sold her out for power, little girls/boys, money..name the perversion, they are offered it.
We are on the same page.[8D]
As a relatively new gun owner (less than one year) any guns I have in my possession are serialized and were purchased outright at bona fide licensed firearms or hunting stores with my CCW as ID and with all of the necessary paperwork properly filled out, etc. No guns were purchased cash, at a show, from a private individual, at auction, on-line or out-of-state. Further, no guns were inherited, bequeathed to me from someone else, or received as gifts. All bills of sale documenting any purchases are intact and readily at hand.
That said, what actual benefit would formal gun registration by me afford law enforcement agencies beyond what it is already common knowledge to them courtesy of the BATF and FBI?
Is the registration process simply a means to track the whereabouts of unserialized, very old, modern collectible, limited edition issue, military surplus, souveniers from tours of duty, gifts, inheritances et al?
Truthfully, I'm not looking for a lecture on the merits or evils of gun registration; rather, just a clinical explanation about what any proposed registration process would accomplish for the various law enforcement agencies specifically with regards to gun owners like myself.
Much appreciated.
A simple and sincere question here.
As a relatively new gun owner (less than one year) any guns I have in my possession are serialized and were purchased outright at bona fide licensed firearms or hunting stores with my CCW as ID and with all of the necessary paperwork properly filled out, etc. No guns were purchased cash, at a show, from a private individual, at auction, on-line or out-of-state. Further, no guns were inherited, bequeathed to me from someone else, or received as gifts. All bills of sale documenting any purchases are intact and readily at hand.
That said, what actual benefit would formal gun registration by me afford law enforcement agencies beyond what it is already common knowledge to them courtesy of the BATF and FBI?
Is the registration process simply a means to track the whereabouts of unserialized, very old, modern collectible, limited edition issue, military surplus, souveniers from tours of duty, gifts, inheritances et al?
Truthfully, I'm not looking for a lecture on the merits or evils of gun registration; rather, just a clinical explanation about what any proposed registration process would accomplish for the various law enforcement agencies specifically with regards to gun owners like myself.
Much appreciated.
OK, you asked for it, and I will give you their reasons for it, first. then, I'll tell you why it is BS, next. Then, I will explain to you what it is really all about.
Registration is needed to employ the 'protective veil of security'. Simply stated, the excuse is that if LE's know who owns what, they will be able to tell who has what, and should a crime be commited, they could connect the dots, follow the paper trail, and bust the one responsible for the incident. Anyone who does not want to comply with the edict is obviously a criminal, and anyone who doesn't trust the gov't obviously has something to hide.
Where it falls apart is that only those who follow the laws would be stupid enough to comply with such nonsense. These people have swallowed the bait, and are now their hapless victims. Someone who breaks the law will not comply with the registration process and would have a tool that could not be tracked, and the whole registration thing falls apart. This is not, nor has it ever been, the key to solving murders, for a multitude of reasons. The gun is not usually left behind after being shot, unless it is dropped. This happens very rarely, and when this happens, usually it is accompanied by serial number obliteration. This is only an example of why registration is not the ultimate tool for LE use.
However, a person who is an armed law abiding citizen is the enemy of a corrupt gov't. Whether he actively realizes this or not, gov't officials know that the law abiding armed citizry will only take so much $#!t before they've had enough. Where we differ from mongrel terrorists is that we will march on those who have done whatever to us, and destroy them, in order to set matters right.
This scares them, and rightfully so.
It was once said that you could tell who has the illest feelings against the people by how avid they supported gun kontrol, in any form. They realize the desperate situation they may face if they get their way, and do whatever is necessary to sucker those people into beating their swords into plowshares. The people targeted are the ones who will turn things around. If it isn't obvious enough for people to figure out and make this connection, perhaps they should follow this little gem of advice, instead. No matter what the concept, if people are trying to lie to you in order to gain the support of people, you should automatically be against it.
What these idiots fail to realize is that some people have realized that some of the populace knows that sometimes a law is for a fool to follow and for a wise man to ignor.
This is the truth. Even from Biblical times, to ancient history, to colonial history, to modern day history; even today, this act is maent to do exactly one thing. It is a prelude to confiscation. It has absolutely jack $#!t to do with crime control or safety (except to the murderers).
quote:That said, what actual benefit would formal gun registration by me afford law enforcement agencies beyond what it is already common knowledge to them courtesy of the BATF and FBI?
None, concerning you. Your guns are ALREADY registered...and most probably in the master computer..all the lies to the contrary.
The idea is to eventually track ALL gun movement in this country..and steadily make it more difficult to buy and sell arms.
Witness the abandonment of the gun shows by the average non-gun dealer...scared out by the jack-booted thugs that do the bidding of the Elitists.
The biggest diameter PVC pipe you can find, cut to length, put some dessicant packs in, seal the ends, and bury them. make yourself a map. And if there was any kind of breakdown in the civil population (here is where I get the "couldn't happen here" crap. Look at New Orleans[}:)]
Couldn't happen Huh? It IS happening here as we type, as we live from day to day.there are a lot of people, powerful people, with their own agendas, that want a unarmed population so there willl never be any civil unrest. Couldn't happen here? I hope to hell not. GOD Bless The United States of America.
I own a place in Saskatchewan Provence of Canada and I am pleased to inform Gunbroker members that there's a good possibility exists our Northern brothers, feed up with Gun registration are going to s_ _t can it. Gun registration cost Canada 8 billion do the math 35 million people divide by 300 million thats a factor of 11.66% divided again by 300 million using the Canadian example gun registration could cost $2,572,898,799 Clickty Clack do you hear the printing press's printing red ink greenbacks.
Why the hell can't we learn from other's mistakes, and not register firearms, gun registration has been proven not workable, the examples are at least 10 foreign countries failed unworkable gun registration laws.
Before Canada kicked out the old goverment and went for a new one, the gun grabbers were trying to blame American smugglers for illegal firearms in Canada, when the right campaigned they exposed this as gun grabber non-sense or trying to make Canadians/and/or Americans out as criminals.
One Canadian politican called his opponent an NBA type trash talker, I thought that statement was as good as Arnold Californias Governator
calling the legislature "Girly Boys"
WW: Interesting tidbit on the Colt revolver, I didn't know that.
I guess you're leaning more towards a "community" or group centered approach. Thats fine, but it also sounds like you plan on waiting till something actually happens until even begining to discuss things with your neighbors. They are, of course, your neighbors so I'm fully aware that you know them better than I do. It just doesn't seem to me that much could be accomplished by "winging it" if that time ever came.
On the other this isn't something I feel very comfortable discussing with anyone around me in any meaningful fashion. For example, I don't plan on going over to my neighbor's house for a BBQ and telling him "Well Mike, if the Government ever forces gun confiscations on us I'll bury a bunch of guns and ammo underneath the tool shed in my backyard, and we can dig 'em up and shoot the b**tards later". Basically, the more people who are "in" on your plan, the more likely someone is to tell the FBI you are a domestic terrorist.
Besides, the original question wasn't what to do in the event of gun confiscation (a subject beat to death in the "would you fight" thread) but rather how to handle a "grey area" of mandatory registration?
MANDATORY REGISTRATION I would most LIKELY sell my gun on a black market,rather than shoot police driving by my home ready to take my gun away from me. See thats the thing -law abiding people will most likely do what ever the goverment imposes on them. While the criminals on the other hand won't be so accomadating. SO thats how I would handle registration!
p.s. AS LONG AS THERE IS REGRISTATION, THAT MEANS MONEY FOR THE "MAN" AND AS LONG AS THE "MAN" IS GETTING MONEY FROM YOU AND ME, THERE MOST LIKELY WILL NEVER BE A BAN ON FIREARMS.
May we assume, then, that you call the Founders of this great country "criminals" (they refused lawful orders..indeed, fired upon those enforcing them)
and will refuse to fight to actually preserve freedom ?
If y'all will look back in history there was a reason the govt. came up with to register Machine guns in 1934. It was a crime laden era and big brother wanted MG's out of the hands of badguys. Flash forward 72 years. Get real times have changed and so have guns. Society has also changed. I foresee gun registration coming and coming soon. Assault weapons will be registered the same as MG's. Pass a background check, pay a tax and possess. There will be a list of guns requiring registration. Juat look at the street sweeper. One day it was a rotary mag shotgun and then another day Uncle Sam says it is a destructive device. Uncle Sam will soon declare your AK-47's destructive devices.. So take a look at your goodies and see how many will need registered at $200 each. Do the math. Sam won't take em away but confinscate those who won't register.
You seem to have almost willfully accepted that what you describe. Might I ask what you are doing, along with others of us, to try and prevent such events from happening?
He is willingly submitting to the demands of the beast for proof that he 'is a good citizen';
He is, after that, proudly pointing to his exalted status as an 'approved citizen'..free to spend hugely goverment inflated sums for his toys;
Then reviling those of us pointing to the UnConstitutional nature of the whole apparatus...
"You are a criminal, unable to pass"
You are too poor,jealous of us with money"
In other words...aiding and abeting those in power to instill in the citizens of this country that there actually IS NO RIGHT to firearms...
Some getting the Full-Auto permits actually are knowlegable about the step they are taking. Select Fire likes his exalted status.
I can tell you what he is doing;
He is willingly submitting to the demands of the beast for proof that he 'is a good citizen';
He is, after that, proudly pointing to his exalted status as an 'approved citizen'..free to spend hugely goverment inflated sums for his toys;
Then reviling those of us pointing to the UnConstitutional nature of the whole apparatus...
"You are a criminal, unable to pass"
You are too poor,jealous of us with money"
In other words...aiding and abeting those in power to instill in the citizens of this country that there actually IS NO RIGHT to firearms...
Some getting the Full-Auto permits actually are knowlegable about the step they are taking. Select Fire likes his exalted status.
Well said. Some how I knew that already.
I can tell you what he is doing;
He is willingly submitting to the demands of the beast for proof that he 'is a good citizen';
He is, after that, proudly pointing to his exalted status as an 'approved citizen'..free to spend hugely goverment inflated sums for his toys;
Then reviling those of us pointing to the UnConstitutional nature of the whole apparatus...
"You are a criminal, unable to pass"
You are too poor,jealous of us with money"
In other words...aiding and abeting those in power to instill in the citizens of this country that there actually IS NO RIGHT to firearms...
Some getting the Full-Auto permits actually are knowlegable about the step they are taking. Select Fire likes his exalted status.
Excellent quote, Highball. It seems to be his thought that the people who don't think it is right to have to pay $25,000 for a registered receiver MP5K are just poor people complaining about their status that can't afford expensive toys.
First off, the registration is wrong. Secondly, if this were a free and fair market, the MP5K would cost $900. I doubt that guys like select-fire would support the repeal of the 1986 MG ban largely because it would devalue their current collection. After all, they begged the government, and were able to afford the obscenely high priced guns. Why should they care what the unwashed heathens think?