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Potential NRA petition.

pickenuppickenup Member, Moderator Posts: 22,397 ******
OK, lets toss it around.

First, just to let ya'll know, there were a few people who emailed my post about the NRA TO the NRA a while back, to see if they would get any response from the NRA. NO ONE posted that they even received a response, so I can only assume that the NRA did not have one. But if ya'll want to try this.......

Second, I'll put this up, and see where it goes. FYI, tr fox and I have been through a similar ordeal a few years ago. I'll not go into details, and it was not about the NRA, I'll just say that it was an idea that received DISMAL participation. [V] How many did you actually receive tr fox, 3-4?

This is only an initial outline, and ALL of it is subject to change.

1. Lets outline this "potential petition" here in this forum, before we take it anywhere else, like GD or other forums. From what I have read, what we want to do is have the NRA "respond" to our grievances. Is this correct?

2. We do not want to put the responsibility to write it on one person alone. Let ALL donate our input. A collective effort if you will, since we ALL want to see the results. We can work out a final copy here on the forum.

3. Specific grievances need to be semi-current.

3. The petition has to be factual, and cordial. Do your homework. No attacks of any kind.

5. Do we need to set a goal? YOU ALL pick the numbers, this is just a starting place, a suggestion. Something like getting 25 members here "in this forum" to participate, and be willing to sign, before we take it to GD. Then a goal of 200, if we don't reach those goals, we let the whole thing die?

IF it makes it out to GD, should it be the formal petition, or just the outline, and only asking members if there would be any interest in signing it. The members would need to be informed that they would have to use their real name when doing so. We could make three categories of names like members, x-members, and "never been" members.

(as a side note, does anyone know how to set up a petition online? On a separate site? By not having to give your name and # to anyone else here, it might get more participation. Whoever sets it up could print it out, and send it into the NRA)

I'll start a list, we can toss it around.

My first question would be, "Do you believe in the second amendment, AS WRITTEN?"

1. Why does the NRA continue to push "Project Exile?" Every anti-gun law on the books today is an "infringement" of our rights to keep and bear arms. How is a criminal MORE of a criminal if he uses a gun? Vilifying an inanimate object "a gun" gives the anti-gunners more ammo?


2. The "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act." Why, when there was a CLEAN bill (which had MORE THAN enough cosponsors to pass) did they choose to support the anti-gun laden one?

3. With a (supposedly sympathetic "to gun rights" republican controlled government) for almost 2 terms now, have they NOT tried to roll back ANY of the UNconstitutional gun laws on the books?

4. Why are they fighting to turn a constitutionally guaranteed right (to bear arms) into a revocable privilege, that you have to ASK for, and PAY for, instead of fighting for "Vermont Style" (and now Alaska style) concealed carry laws?

Ok, your turn, what do you think?
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Comments

  • WoundedWolfWoundedWolf Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    So far, the formalities you have outlined sound pretty good. I agree that we should hammer it out in this forum before posting it in GD. 25 signees in this forum is probably a good target. If we can't get at least that here then we have no chance in GD.

    I also think we should flesh out the final version here in this forum and then just give the GD folks a chance to sign on. Once we all agree upon the final version, it should be closed to editing in my opinion.

    I think we will need an official organizer or editor. There will probably be things that could go one way or another and an editor will be required to make the final call.

    What is our goal? Are we hoping to evoke a response from the NRA? Therefore should we form the petition as a series of questions that we would like answered? Or are we going to make it a declaration of some sort, pointing out things we don't like about the NRA and its activities and ask them to respond or explain their actions?

    I think the four issues for content you have outlined are pretty good so far. I suggest we may want to add something about court cases that were ignored or even stifled by the NRA, such as the D.C. case and the Silveira case in California.

    I would also like to know how many lawyers they have on staff or on retainer, and what cases are they actually participating in currently?
  • Wagon WheelWagon Wheel Member Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    pickenup:

    I'm not sure how much help this will be but these folks petition on a daily basis. I'm just not literate enough figure out all the ins and out's of doing one up. And I don't think you can C&P to it. It does have instructions. All I am saying is, Check it out as an option. Membership is required but its free, and easy.

    FireSociety.com - America's Grassroots Community
    http://www.firesociety.com/;jsessionid=31036B25C8D0A84AC67D6BF6478B23D8

    FireSociety petitions http://www.firesociety.com/edit/article/13493?category=39 are a great way for you to rally other citizens around a specific cause that concerns you -- national or local. Your petition MUST consist of at least two paragraphs:
    "Background" with at least two web sources;
    "The Petition States" with the precise petition language.
    Also, please include a photo if possible. Once submitted, your petition will be reviewed (usually within 24 hours) before it is posted to the site. For more help, read our Petition Guide.
  • nyforesternyforester Member Posts: 2,574 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Pickenup
    I have emailed the NRA 2 times in the last 3 weeks regarding their past and future position on fighting for our lost gun rights. I received an email from them saying someone will be in touch with me shortly to discuss the matter. I am still waiting..........Perhaps they receive many emails and are sorting through them. I would bet that they are overwelmed with emails.
    Abort Cuomo
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Asking why they are attempting to derail the D.C. lawsuit would be good.

    The problem ? You are going to get a bunch of lawyer speech meaning nothing except 'status quo is better then taking a chance'.
  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Asking them why they approach those in the enemy camp with statistics to prove that gun kontrol is ineffective, when it is, in fact, counterproductive.

    Why they voted for the FOPA when it had the true mother gun ban in it, concerning machine guns, and why they keep referring the FOPA as if it was victorious legislation.

    Why they assert that a background check is a good thing when it violates the very Amendment they champion, while taking a dump on two other amendments at the same time; the 4th and the 5th Amendment.

    Why they believe an assault weapon ban is a bad thing, while doing nothing to undo the foundation legislation, the NFA '34 and the GKA'68.
  • Wagon WheelWagon Wheel Member Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I finanlly found where I saved the Petition Info; Maybe this will save you some research time and/or provide some guidance for construction via some other medium.

    Fire Society Petition Rules:
    FireSociety Petitions
    Ignite Your Own Citizen-Fire!
    http://www.firesociety.com/article/10043/Launch-Your-Own-FireSociety-Petition-/

    At FireSociety, we recognize that some topics warrant discussion in forums, others posting on blogs, and still others submission as formal articles. Then there are those "I must take action" items that demand an even more organized response. That is why we have developed a custom platform that allows our FireSociety members to submit petitions for other FireSociety members can sign.
    FireSociety Petition Requirements

    Before a petition can be approved, it must contain at least two paragraphs:

    Paragraph #1 -- Background. Provide some background on your petition (3-5 sentences) that sets the stage for the petition. The background should answer ALL the basic questions: who, what, when, where, why. Be sure to include 2-3 web links/references where signers can click to receive more information on the issue. This paragraph begins with the heading "Background".

    Paragraph #2 -- The Petition States. In this paragraph, state the precise text of your petition. If you have a target in mind for the petition (i.e. "President Bush" "Speaker Pelosi") address the petition to that person or target. Keep your petition brief and clear. Remember that you are trying to create a petition that many others will sign so do not use unnecessary inflammatory or divisive language.

    Your petition MUST consist of these two paragraphs and MUST include at least two web references to be considered.

    Photo/Image: It is helpful but not required if you include a photo or an image to go with your petition. This image will help attract more attention to your petition.

    Go here for an excellent example of a FireSociety petition.
    Petition to Pres. Bush:
    http://www.firesociety.com/article/10121/

    Additional help for signing/starting petitions.

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    How do I sign a FireSociety petition?
    Why kinds of issues are good for FireSociety petitions?
    How do I launch a petition?
    What happens after I submit my petition?
    Why would my petition be rejected?
    How can I manage the petitions I've signed?

    How do I sign a FireSociety petition?
    First you must be a member of FireSociety.com and you must be logged in. When you are reviewing the petition, click on the "sign" icon. It's that simple. Please note that the text of a petition cannot be modified, so you do not need to worry about someone changing the text after you have signed it.

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    Why kinds of issues are good for FireSociety petitions?
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  • Marc1301Marc1301 Member Posts: 31,822 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well, numbers 3 and 4 on Pickenups list were ones I would have mentioned, along with the starting line question about their organizational belief in the second amendment, as written,......not interpreted.
    I would also like to know,........out of the dues, and contributions that they collect, what percentages go for legislative action, as opposed to shooting activities. That question leads to, what is their primary purpose, and if the legislation side, is a "secondary" concern, funding wise, then we have our answer right there. It needs to be made clear that we wish to belong to, and contribute to, an organization that is "active", in protecting our rights, and fighting to roll back unconstitutional laws.
    Wagon Wheel,........your info above looks helpful, but the only drawback I see, is the fact that to "sign", one must join that site. Not an issue for us here, I don't believe, but I fear it would have an impact if we go to other forums, like GD with it. Unfortunately some do not want to have to do anything that takes a few minutes,......or are afraid of getting more spam e-mail.
    I will be looking for info on how to do this also.
    "Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here." - William Shatner
  • Wagon WheelWagon Wheel Member Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Marc1301:

    Just offering this up as an option. The real deal is the guidance offered in "How To Construct" an effective Petition.
  • pickenuppickenup Member, Moderator Posts: 22,397 ******
    edited November -1
    At this point, is a petition the right choice? Are we trying to change something?

    Or are we sending them a letter, with a list of grievances of past actions (signed by ? people) looking for a letter of explanation from them?

    What is the goal?
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by pickenup
    At this point, is a petition the right choice? Are we trying to change something?

    Or are we sending them a letter, with a list of grievances of past actions (signed by ? people) looking for a letter of explanation from them?

    What is the goal?


    I for one, do not want an explanation from the NRA. I don't care why they compromise and support gun-control, I only care that they do.

    Unless a specific outcome is demanded of them, e.g. support the 2A without compromise or we are gone, I am not interested personally.

    I am encouraged, however, that a number are getting educated, waking up and thinking about doing "something". Even if the majority decides not to hold them to task, the message sent will have some, albeit minimal, value, in that some in the organizational hierarchy may also begin to wake up.

    Watching to see this develop, or not.
  • Marc1301Marc1301 Member Posts: 31,822 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would tend to say that for the purpose of this, we would be looking for some real answers to questions, since all individual members appear to get is the canned response.
    I realize that the question I posed, starts as a question, but then turns into a speech about what we want from them, probably not the thing to put in this, although I feel the "question", is legit.
    The main purpose, I suppose, of this, would be to get hopefully honest answers, so that we, and others, could make firm decisions, based on evidence directly from them. Also possibly to show them that if this came from one little group of gun owners, from one forum,.......it may show them that they better start to rethink what they are doing.
    Honestly, I don't know if it would just be a waste of time or not! Highball made a point, that is unfortunately most likely true. We will probably get some legal "mumbo jumbo", and a thanks for your concerns, type of response,.......and that they will continue to fight for our rights.
    For this to accomplish anything, it would involve I believe, us starting it here, getting a response,.......which will undoubtedly be unsatisfactory to us,.......adding their responses, and then sending it on around the internet, to all types of firearm, and 2nd. Amendment related boards,........with the small hope that it could "catch fire".
    Just my thoughts for what they are worth.
    "Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here." - William Shatner
  • Wagon WheelWagon Wheel Member Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    pickenup:

    IMHO, I think a petition is the only way to get their attention. As a Life-time Member, unless you are making additional contributions, you are just a number to them. A number, that provides them the clout to speak for the masses. The annual membership roles fluctuate and they will never miss someone that just lets their membership expire. Of course they continue to sent renewals for a while but never ask "WHY" you allowed your membership to expire. Even if you actively complain about their policies while a member. They just request more money from active members. I often wonder what their advertising budget is. My guess would be more than their Lawyer fees to defend our rights.

    A well-written Petition that gives examples of the most recent betrayals and links to the historically dismal record of defending the 2nd Amendment, would wake up the NRA and hopefully Gun Owners from both Camps. (Hunters and 2A Defenders) Fact: Threat of Massive Defection, based on their own documented record, would REQUIRE an IMMEDIATE Response.

    The beauty of a petition would be you just have to "Advertise" the petition and its location if it's at a fixed site. And then it could be signed by anyone that happens to realize the truth/facts and agrees with the petition as written. You may be surprised, you may not. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    I have signed petitions that were sent around with instruction at the bottom to forward it to a specify place at a certain number of signatures. These can't get lost completely because they split at every forward and get around pretty quickly.

    Just another thought. I'm in no matter what ya'll decide.
  • Marc1301Marc1301 Member Posts: 31,822 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Actually, after some further thought,........IF we are going to try this, I believe it should be for both reasons. We all want some answers to questions, instead of the "form letters",........but the real goal is to change something.
    Who knows,.....could get quite large in size, if done the right way,.......or it could fizzle to nothing.
    I will wait to see what the rest of you want to do,.......but I will be in, and willing to be active about it, if that is what is decided.
    Also Wagon Wheel,........I was going to suggest the e-mail route also, as that does not require anyone that wants to sign, to be a member of a site. We would need to specify that REAL info is necessary, and also membership numbers for NRA, if one is a member.
    "Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here." - William Shatner
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    IMO IF you want to get the NRA's attention, list your grievences, your questions to be answered, AND find an organization that MEETS the members expectation of what their group should do for their members.Such as GOA OR JFPO, or some such group. Let the NRA know, that they will be the MINORITY and relinquish their financial power to another group who WILL stand for what their members EXPECT. IF the NRA won't get off their little power trip, hit em' where it hurts the worst, in the wallet. If people will leave the NRA to support another group, the NRA will no longer exist.

    This is to say: HEY! NRA! if your not gonna answer for the crap you pulled, and start REPRESENTING your members, we're movin' over here!
  • WoundedWolfWoundedWolf Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Okay, here are a few more points:

    1. Although I agree that the Fireside Petition website may be useful to us for structuring our petition, I think we should keep the construction of the petition within our forum. People do get more suspicious and disinterested once they are referred to an external site. I think we are going to have to spoon-feed this to the GD folks if we have any chance of collecting signatures.

    2. To sign the petition, I think we need to have a single member collect all the signee info. Preferably someone that has been on the forum a long time and that people would trust with some personal info (perhaps an admin?). That person will be the one that ultimately collects, organizes, and adds the signatures to the petition. There will have to be a reasonable guarantee of confidentiality, that the personal info will obviously not be distributed to other members or outside entities. Of course the information MAY become public once the petition has been released, however the GB user names will not be at all linked to the petition signatures. So your name may get released, but likely will not be tracable back to your GB identity (but in some cases it might not be hard to figure it out).

    3. In order to sign the petition, I suggest we require a full name (first and last), an NRA member ID # (past or present) if you have one, and some piece of contact information (such as an e-mail address or telephone #). I think that would be the minimal information to show that these signatures can be verified and hold some authenticity.

    4. I suggest that we make this an "open" petition. I think we should copy it to other 2nd Amendment organizations (GOA, JPFO, etc.) and possibly some major media outlets (ABC News, NBC, CBS, CNN, Fox, etc.). This way, in the off chance that one of these organizations decides to pick it up and publicize it, the NRA will feel pressured to provide a response.

    5. I think the petition should be addressed to at least the following people at NRA: Sandy Froman, Wayne LaPierre, Chris Cox, and the entire Board of Directors.

    6. Perhaps the petition should be divided into two parts: Grievances and Questions. The first part is for issues that we don't necessarily have a question about, but that we just want to declare our dissatifaction with NRA activities or stances on specific issues. The second part can be for things we want clarification on, or that we want to pin them down on specific stances or future directions.
  • Wagon WheelWagon Wheel Member Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    freemind:

    Agreed. The NRA petition/letter (whatever is decided upon) SHOULD offer, to anyone signing, the Information On (or at least a link to) Alternative Organization/s that DO Support their 2nd Amendment Rights. That kind of statement would scare the bejesus out of their arrogant A$$s on pay day.
  • Wagon WheelWagon Wheel Member Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Wounded Wolf:

    Take that ball and run with it.
  • Marc1301Marc1301 Member Posts: 31,822 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Didn't Sandy just get replaced as Prez?
    "Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here." - William Shatner
  • WoundedWolfWoundedWolf Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Marc, you may be right. They now have Kayne Robinson listed as president on this website:

    http://www.nraleaders.com/

    I'm not even sure if that is an official NRA webpage.
  • WoundedWolfWoundedWolf Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    A few more thoughts:

    1. After mulling this over a bit, perhaps we shouldn't even bother with the questions, maybe this petition should simply be a "Declaration of Grievances". It will be up to the NRA if they wish to respond at all. If they don't respond then we will know that they don't really care what their members think.

    2. The petition should definitely be sent via regular mail. It could also be sent via e-mail as a backup, but paper mail still seems to be the official method of communication.

    3. If we also post the petition on the internet, then we should give the signees the option of only signing the paper version. Perhaps the internet version could say "name witheld". This would be no guarantee of privacy, but gives due diligence of such on our part.

    4. I think each signee should understand there may be repercussions to this petition, especially to current NRA members. Their membership could be cancelled, the NRA or media may publicize the petition and all of its signees, including membership and contact info.
  • Marc1301Marc1301 Member Posts: 31,822 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I just remember reading through my AR magazine, I think last months, and she had kind of a farewell letter in her normal column. Haven't received the next one yet.
    "Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here." - William Shatner
  • WoundedWolfWoundedWolf Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sorry to keep filling space, but I want to get my thoughts down before they fall out of my brain...

    quote:AND find an organization that MEETS the members expectation of what their group should do for their members.Such as GOA OR JFPO, or some such group. Let the NRA know, that they will be the MINORITY and relinquish their financial power to another group who WILL stand for what their members EXPECT

    I have to disagree with the above suggestion, simply for the fact that we cannot speak for the GOA or JPFO, even if some of us are members. I don't think the intention here is to start a war between the different gun groups. I think we are trying to call out the NRA and force them to explain their actions and be accountable. I don't think that comparing them to other gun groups or threatening them with a mass exodus to another group would serve that purpose.

    In fact, I don't think that any sort of action or ultimatum should be included in the petition. I think we should merely say here are a list of grivances that we have as members, ex-members, and other interested parties, and leave it at that. If they choose to respond then that is up to them.
  • Wagon WheelWagon Wheel Member Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Marc1301:

    The June AMERICAN Hunter (The girlfriend is still an active member) has John C. Sigler, President doing his first column as President. His FIRST priority is to expand membership. Reckon a shot across the bow will get his attention??
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by WoundedWolf


    I have to disagree with the above suggestion, simply for the fact that we cannot speak for the GOA or JPFO, even if some of us are members. I don't think the intention here is to start a war between the different gun groups. I think we are trying to call out the NRA and force them to explain their actions and be accountable. I don't think that comparing them to other gun groups or threatening them with a mass exodus to another group would serve that purpose.


    But what you may not have thought about:
    If we include one of these groups, THEY can also get media attention to help bring questions/grievences to the table. IF the nra is not intent on representing members beliefs/constitutional rights this way would cause better exposure AND allow people a more educated choice WHERE they may spend their dues. It would give BOTH sides the opertunity to show people exactly what their beliefs are and what they WILL do for members.
  • Marc1301Marc1301 Member Posts: 31,822 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Folks,......if we can't even agree between us on this one forum, there is no sense in taking it any further.
    This will take work, and time from all of us, and more for whomever is the lucky person to get elected to write this.
    I hope it is because it is the weekend,.......but even some of the "regs", have not checked in on this.
    "Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here." - William Shatner
  • Aaron.Combs1Aaron.Combs1 Member Posts: 217 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well im in, though i cannot speak from experience with the NRA, my father is a life member, and i was a supporter for a while. never actually signed up was going to put in for my life when i turned 21 (august of this year) however since i have been to this site during my deployment, i am thankful that i have become a more educated American, and I WILL NOT JOIN THE NRA FOR ANY REASON ! ! ! Whatever i can do to be of assistance, i am at your service. Don't hesitate to send me an E-mail.

    Actually i will be the 1st one to sign:

    Aaron Christopher Combs
    Ocoee FL.
    407-925-3323 (# will be active once I return home)
    [email protected]
  • pickenuppickenup Member, Moderator Posts: 22,397 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by WoundedWolf
    Sorry to keep filling space, but I want to get my thoughts down before they fall out of my brain...
    Don't worry about taking up space, just keep getting your thoughts down. That is what this thread is for.

    Like Marc1301 said, this is going to take time and work. It isn't going to happen overnight. Everyone needs to chew on it, grind it up, and spit it back out. IF this comes about, a week, a month, a few months down the road, we need to have something good enough to mean something. Not something that was just thrown together. Don't get in a hurry.
  • Marc1301Marc1301 Member Posts: 31,822 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    OK,......like WWolf is doing, I am writing as things pop into the old noggin.
    I have been doing some research on the online petition sites,.....there are many! That is good, but so far, I have yet to see one that will let one input anymore than name, and optionally address, on some,..........no custom fields for things like membership numbers, which I believe are a must.
    I am thinking once again, the e-mail based method may be the best.
    I am sure many of you here, know a lot of pro-gun folks, and also belong to other forums. If we can spread it around to those type places, and get people to forward it around, we can with time, collect a lot of signatures.
    Also,.........while full disclosure, would be best, and most of us here, would do it,........I believe once it leaves our little corner of the world, that people will be hesitant, to give all the info like Aaron did.
    I am thinking, name, and city, state,......and NRA number, past or present. Even a first initial, and last name, would work, as long as there is a membership number,.......believe me, if this gets big enough, they will run some numbers to match up info, to see if it is for real.
    Also a place for people to sign, like Aaron, and a "check box" stating that they WOULD be a member IF the NRA was standing by the 2nd. Amendment, and working towards rolling back laws, instead of compromising.
    Now if someone wants to give all of their info, that is fine too, just not mandatory. The NRA number though,.......MUST be mandatory, if you belong, or ever belonged, and can find it. Anyone that won't give their NRA number is likely to be "skeered" of their own shadow.
    The other positive thing about the e-mail based method, is it can come back to the lucky person, that we elect HERE, where it started, to format, and delete the inevitable junk, and improper info that will happen. That way it will look more professional, and serious.
    Once again, just thoughts, while they are coming![:0][?]
    "Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here." - William Shatner
  • Wagon WheelWagon Wheel Member Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Marc1301:

    I admire your conviction and dedication to get this project off the ground. I'm not trying to squash your enthusiasm, and suggest you continue to post your thoughts for us to mull on. But, I would caution against making this project into some kind of massive administrative nightmare for some lucky winner of the GB petition lottery. From the looks of things, that may be you.

    Set some priorities and outline the steps required to bring this project from inception to completion. IMHO, The primary objective at this point should be the actual content and construction of the petition/letter to be submitted. That hasn't even been agreed upon.

    Without it, there is no project. Those details need to be addressed first. Nothing burns me up more than have the team agree on a play, I take the ball and head down field, then, find out the rest of the team headed toward the water cooler. I'm not saying that will happen in this case but, I grow ever more skeptical of everything as my days pass. So far there has been very little feedback on the idea, so it may be prudent to wait for some. The initial agreement on content and support must be obtained first.

    The Actual means/method of execution/delivery can be worked out later as the finished product nears completion and supporters emerge.
  • Marc1301Marc1301 Member Posts: 31,822 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    WagonWheel,.......I agree with your statements, and you are not squashing my enthusiasm!
    I, also am a bit dismayed, at the lack of interest, even here on "our" board,.......but then again, it has not been long, and this WILL take time, IF it ever happens. I just hope that this does not turn out to be another example of how people like to "yack" about things,......but when it comes to action, and doing a little work, the majority pass, because it might take up some of their free time.
    I tend to get involved in things I believe in,.......so kind of ignore me![;)]
    I have been hit up to run for Prez of the board for the gun range that I belong to. I passed on that, as it is nothing but constant politics, and grown men acting like children.
    I will continue to think about it, and concentrate more on the "document" itself. All need to say what they would like to see, and then we need to discuss what should be in the final draft.
    I would not shirk off doing some of the "web" stuff,........as I am fairly good at that, but we have far better writers here than I, and that is what we need in the drafting of the document.
    I hope that more here start to get into this, but if not,........I look at it as we gave it the old "college try".
    The one thing we will not overcome here, is the group that just want to let everything go down the tubes ASAP,.........and I am not taking a jab, because part of me wants that also,.........but, I would like to see a huge organization like NRA, get something that catches their attention possibly. Most likely, I am "dreaming"![:D]
    "Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here." - William Shatner
  • Wagon WheelWagon Wheel Member Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Marc1301:

    They could all be doing independent research for all I know. Someone may just pop in here with a well-crafted document that could be "the one". Who knows? Most of what is needed may be C&P'ed from this very thread. I'm sure they didn't just pull that out their a%%, so maybe they have more and their reviewing that information as well. Maybe someone is organizing information as we speak. Like pickenup said, it'll take time. There are a lot of cud chewers here, so just be patient. Or, it may just fade away as another good idea but a waste of time!!
  • WoundedWolfWoundedWolf Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Maybe we should start with an outline. How about this:

    I. Introduction
    II. Declarations
    III. Questions
    IV. Conclusion

    Pretty simple. We may be able to do without a conclusion. We still doing questions or just making declarations? When I get time I will break down some of the topics that have been mentioned in this thread in some more detail.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    My opinion ONLY;

    The time has passed for questions. That needed to be done 10-10-30 years ago.
    Time to give orders. Time to DEMAND that they either support the Second Amendment...or stop lying about it.

    By the way...I am a bit hurt nobody mentioned My name to draft the document....
    How come my opening statement wouldn't work ?

    'Gentlemen'...The time has come for you to stop pretending to support the Constitution. We the undersigned come before you to DEMAND immediate cessation of your support for gun control laws and a concerted drive to roll back EVERY Federal gun control law on the books.ect, ect...
    [:D][:D]
    Just a flight of fantasy, fellers...Me drafting the document would be like inviting a pig to a garden party...
  • Wagon WheelWagon Wheel Member Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Highball:

    Just my opinion, go for it. That is a good opener. I'll sign the thing, Letter or petition, no matter who might end up writing it, Politically correct or NOT makes no difference to me!! God knows you COULD put together something that WOULD get everyone's attention. Collaboration between you, lt496 and pickenup would provide a triple barreled punch in the gut to the infamously popular mouthpiece for 2nd Amendment Rights and expose them for what they REALLY are. Premiere Compromisers and traitors of the 2 Amendment for the sake of hunting rifles. They just don't seem to be able to see the big picture. Hunters need to be awakened to the ultimate demise of their precious, hunting only, firearms. What they need is a ROGUE Elephant to trample through their china shop!!! You'd be perfect, but I just didn't think this was your cup of tea. A letter followed up by a petition would get their attention.

    OBTW: A pig would very well be a better guest than most of these stuffed suits that call themselves Politicians and Lobbyists doing OUR Business!!! They are destructive but CLEAN animals. At least they don't [email protected]@ in their own kitchen.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    In the interest of stimulating the discussion......

    If I were alone on this project, my communication would list a number of issues, positions and laws, which have been facilitated and/or supported by the NRA, which clearly are unconstitutional. This would be in a historical and present day context.

    Cold, hard facts. "It is what it is" and NRA needs to see it as such, period.

    An explanation from NRA would be amusing, but the facts are already there to see. Further rationalization and justification of their past actions would serve little purpose, beyond entertainment value.

    An absolute commitment to leave the NRA and/or never join NRA and/or publicly crusade against NRA would be a part of this project if others were involved and if a serious result were expected.

    A promise to throw full support behind some other organization that understands, supports and fights for Amendment II, would be necessary. Two such are the GOA and JPFO. Otherwise, the NRA would fall back on their normal "weasel-speak" and try to rationalize their actions, much like trfox does as their mouthpiece here.

    This ultimatum could be avoided by NRA, IF they officially adopt an immediate supportive stance of Amendment II as an individual right, not tied to "sporting purposes", or some other such nonsense, and free of government restriction.

    A few thoughts on items requiring a response of the "Official NRA Position" (some for amusement only).

    I for one, would like to pin them down as to the "Official NRA Position" on Amendment II, with the facts of their past and current actions taken into account.

    1. Does Amendment II mean an absolute individual right to keep and bear arms?

    2. If so, how is that reconciled with past and present NRA actions to impose restrictions and otherwise "infringe" on ownership, purchase, possession and carry (read "bear") of firearms?

    3. If not, what does Amendment II mean to the NRA, officially?

    4. What is it about "fully automatic" weapons, handguns and supposed "assault weapons", where the NRA sees that the government has the right to regulate e.g. infringe upon, beyond a shotgun, or hunting rifle?

    5. Does the Second Amendment provide the right to "keep and bear arms" as a means of fighting against, or throwing off the yoke of, a tyranical government?

    6. If that right to fight tyranny exists and is clear in the founders intent for the 2A, how does NRA justify restricting the very tools, e.g. "full auto's" and supposed "assault weapons", that would make it plausible to do so?

    7. Does the NRA tie a "militia context" to Amendment II, in any form?

    8. Does the Second Amendment allow for certain restrictions on basic firearms?

    9. Does it allow for legislation which restricts an individuals right to purchase, own or carry, e.g. infringements?

    10. Why have no efforts been made by the NRA to roll-back unconstitutional gun laws?

    11. Explain the sordid history of the NRA on collusion, collaboration and facilitation of multiple gun laws.

    12. What is NRA's Official Position on supposed "Assault Weapons"?

    13. How can facilitating a God-given Right into a government granted privilege, e.g. CCW legislation and laws, be reconciled with Amendment II, unless the NRA's position is that it is NOT an individual right?
  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by WoundedWolf
    Marc, you may be right. They now have Kayne Robinson listed as president on this website:

    http://www.nraleaders.com/

    I'm not even sure if that is an official NRA webpage.


    It's an old website, and it is terrifyingly anti-gun. Check it out again....
  • Marc1301Marc1301 Member Posts: 31,822 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Wagon Wheel is correct,.....the new NRA guy is Sigler, just got my mag yesterday.
    My phone line, and DSL, has been down all day, so I will have to catch up on all of this later.[;)]
    I want to read all of the new info, before I even comment.
    "Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here." - William Shatner
  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Marc1301
    Wagon Wheel is correct,.....the new NRA guy is Sigler, just got my mag yesterday.
    My phone line, and DSL, has been down all day, so I will have to catch up on all of this later.[;)]
    I want to read all of the new info, before I even comment.


    Sure, I know that, but the website reflected it as Kayne Robinson, former NRA President.
  • WoundedWolfWoundedWolf Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks for catching that, Gunphreak. The website looked awful suspicious.

    As for the petition... I think we have a long way to go. I think we have opinions ranging from wanting the NRA to clarify a few of their positions to declaring all out war against the organization.

    It may take a while for us to find a happy medium... dare I say... a compromise?

    [:D]
  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Why, Wounded Wolf??

    Consider that championing a cause does not mean concessions.

    A compromise on this subject is awful. Generally, when concessions are made, both sides agree to give something up. Where are the antigunners giving anything up? They are merely settling for a half-hearted law, which doesn't extend as far as they would like, but does take something from us. Meanwhile, nothing is being taken from them, and we buy ourselves a little time before the real battle occurs.

    I've had enough of that!!! Civil disobedience, anyone???
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