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Police Officers Don't Know the Law...

ih8durstih8durst Member Posts: 22 ✭✭
I was in a supermarket in Middle TN a couple weekends ago on a Sunday morning buying groceries as usual with my family. I was carrying, openly like I always do in public. Kroger, nor Publix have ever posted signs forbidding people from carrying weapons on premises as I have done it before only to hear some ignorant comments from bag boys and the like.

Well, I got a tap on the shoulder an hour into my shopping. I turned around to see an officer wanting to speak with me away from my family. He informed me that he had gotten a call from a customer who was worried about someone carrying in the store. He asked for my permit and ran my license and it came back clean. I told him I have carried on premises before and would contineue to do so as it is my right. He informed me that TN is not FL and you cannot openly carry. I said "really?" because I have taken my class and was pretty sure that I could open or conceal as long as it wasn't a federal building, state park, alcohol serving establishment or private property with posted signs." He said I was mistaken and he wanted me to go to my car and put it away. He also started getting very testy and used the common line "we could do it the hard way" as cops often do when they are ignorant and someone knows more than them. I agreed however, to be walked out like I did something wrong in front of the entire store and my wife and children.

When we got outside he proceded to be ignorant and try to make me think this could've gone worse for me. The only time he thanked me and was courteous was when I referred to him as "Officer so and so" (I got his name).

Anyways, I have seen this poop so many times on the net where cops are pushing kids around, inventing charges, planting evidence and just being overall *-bags to the people they are supposed to protect while being ignorant to the Constitution and their own state laws.

I gonna file a complaint against this policeman for not knowing his own laws and making me feel like a criminal in public.

Anyone have any thoughts? Do I need to speak with a Staff Seargent in person or will a phone call suffice?

Comments

  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Get the pertinent law in hard copy..outline it.

    Gte the officers name and badge number well to hand.

    Trot yourself down to the police station and get as high up the food chain you possible can...remaining CALM. And unarmed. I assume you cannot carry in a police station.

    Then..remaining calm, cool and collected...register your complaint against the officer.
    Remember...you are speaking to the Kings' men. Expect to be singled out for your troubles...and praise the day, if the department is made out of predominately decent Peace Officers.
    Those guys will be cheering you on, if they are.

    I believe that one guy walking into the station will outweight a dozen phone calls. That is just MY opinion.
  • Rack OpsRack Ops Member Posts: 18,596 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Highball

    I believe that one guy walking into the station will outweight a dozen phone calls. That is just MY opinion.


    +1
  • bigmillbigmill Member Posts: 36 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    yes the cops are always abusing someone. The "net" is alway a true and accutate place of information. Base your thoughts on your own experience and if you have an issue with one officer from one department one time and you feel it was wrong see if it can be fixed by the department. Remember dispatch and other uninformed people are the ones calling. He may have been repponding to a man with a gun call. Also how many people called in. If it is "freaking" people out then it is causing a public disturbance to some level.
  • ih8durstih8durst Member Posts: 22 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Guns freak a lot of people out.

    So I say ban them all together and not educate people at all.


    My problem wasn't with the fact he was called. My problem was that this Officer of the Law didn't know the law.
  • kyplumberkyplumber Member Posts: 11,111
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by bigmill
    If it is "freaking" people out then it is causing a public disturbance to some level.



    to hell with people.. [;)]
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Bigmill;
    Rally around the Blue Line. Or is it the Black Line, nowadays...as more and more forces switch to cool jet Black Garb...?
    Designed to intimidate...there is a certain group that it merely infurates. That group being those that undestand the concept of Peace Officer...no finer group of gentlemen ever existed.

    Now...rather then mention that this would have been a SPLENDID chance to educate the Public about the legality of open carry..the police officer merely announcing to the gathered crowd that the open carry of weapons makes EVERYBODY safer..you slide off into complaints about cop bashing.
    The wedge you feel being driven between the police and the public is being driven by official acts.
  • Rack OpsRack Ops Member Posts: 18,596 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by bigmill
    If it is "freaking" people out then it is causing a public disturbance to some level.


    A lot of things "freak people out" but that doesn't mean it is illegal.

    Nowhere in the Constitution is one acknowledged to have freedom from disturbance.....the bearing of arms, on the hand, is recognized as an inaliable right
  • bhale187bhale187 Member Posts: 7,798
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Highball
    I believe that one guy walking into the station will outweight a dozen phone calls. That is just MY opinion.

    +1

    Most states have a police officer bill of rights which requires any complaint against an officer be made in writting and signed or it will not be investigated.
  • PAgunmanPAgunman Member Posts: 1 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    In my area ... state police consider you the bad person --right away! In fact one guy told me that they are taught to think this way.. you are ok if you are a cop,-- cop family member---or you are the bad guy!!
    I love my country!--- but I fear the goverment!
    In fact in my area-- the state police told me they are the Law!
    If you go to file a complaint aboout a officer... they sit down with him and tell them who complained and everything.. and that is as far as it goes!! they answer to no one!! and yes!-- you will probly will receive reprocussions from it!!!!
  • bigmillbigmill Member Posts: 36 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    the main point of my responce wasnt that there shouldnt be people allowed to carry. My main point that the incident shouldnt be police bashing. If you havent been listening to anything for about the last 10 years things are exactly getting better for police. He should know the law just keep in mind that there is new case law daily and thousands of statutes. I wanted to put some information out so that one could see it from the officers side. Police need public support and as every intelligent person knows dont believe everything you read in the paper.
  • shilowarshilowar Member Posts: 38,811 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I am curious....If you have a concealed carry permit, why would you carry out in public view? If the response is..because I can.. that is fine, just recognize that in our society if you carry a pistol around in public view then you are attracting unneccesary attention to yourself and asking for trouble.

    The purpose of a Concealed weapon permit is to carry a handgun in a manner so that no one knows you have it..."flashing a gun" on your waist band in a holster threatens(unintentionally or intentionally) others and attracts the exact attention that is being complained about.

    Secondly, perhaps it was the Store's management that made the complaint. Though I would assume the Officer would have told you that. Had it been the Stores Management that made the complaint then they have the absolute right to tell you to put the gun in your car or not come into their establishment.

    Thirdly, there are many localities that have local ordinances against carry loaded firearms in public view, or loaded firearms in vehicles(unless you have a CCW). The locality I live in prohibits the carrying of loaded firearms in public view. This came about because of a fella that walked around with a six shooter on all the time, acting like a moron.


    I am ardent 2nd ammendment supporter, as well as concealed carry permit holder and LEO. I have no issues with dealing with those that are carrying concealed and have a permit. But in this time period with events like VA Tech I think it would be prudent to carry your handgun in a manner that doesn't scream "pay attention to me i've got a gun on my hip".

    As far as making a complaint, if you feel you should then make your formal complaint in person, in writing and respectfully. Ifs it is your word against his on how he handled the call, or what he said then don't expect the complaint to be substantiated.
  • WoundedWolfWoundedWolf Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:But in this time period with events like VA Tech I think it would be prudent to carry your handgun in a manner that doesn't scream "pay attention to me i've got a gun on my hip".

    In a free society, when someone is seen openly carrying a firearm in a responsible way, others will know that it means, "Pay attention to me, I've got a gun on my hip... if you try to harm me, my family, or my fellow citizens then I will use it!" In a free society, law enforcement would understand and respect the fact that their fellow armed citizens will support and defend THEM! If open carry was allowed on the Virginia Tech campus then we wouldn't even be talking about "Virginia Tech".

    I have repeatedly seen law enforcement ignorance about open carry law. I've seen people being stopped and harassed about open carry in places where it is totally legal, but usually it goes down the exact way ih8durst describes with them being escorted away to discuss the issue (sometimes in handcuffs). It seems to me that law enforcement should be worried less about the honest people that carry a gun on their hip and more about the people that feel they have to hide it (and I do have a CCW).

    But what else should we expect from a group of power elites that believe they should be the ONLY people allowed to be armed? The rest of us are just criminals and bewildered sheep in their eyes. But remember, WE are the ones that have given them this power, and WE are the ones that tolerate it!
  • oldgunneroldgunner Member Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    More on that subject from some time ago.

    http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=266356

    Check his links at the bottom. One of them has expired, but the pdf's are still good.
  • pickenuppickenup Member Posts: 22,844 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by oldgunner
    More on that subject from some time ago.

    http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=266356

    Check his links at the bottom. One of them has expired, but the pdf's are still good.

    Thanks oldgunner,
    I knew I had read a VERY similar story recently, but could not find it.
    That was it.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by shilowar
    I am curious....If you have a concealed carry permit, why would you carry out in public view? If the response is..because I can.. that is fine, just recognize that in our society if you carry a pistol around in public view then you are attracting unneccesary attention to yourself and asking for trouble.

    The purpose of a Concealed weapon permit is to carry a handgun in a manner so that no one knows you have it..."flashing a gun" on your waist band in a holster threatens(unintentionally or intentionally) others and attracts the exact attention that is being complained about.

    Secondly, perhaps it was the Store's management that made the complaint. Though I would assume the Officer would have told you that. Had it been the Stores Management that made the complaint then they have the absolute right to tell you to put the gun in your car or not come into their establishment.

    Thirdly, there are many localities that have local ordinances against carry loaded firearms in public view, or loaded firearms in vehicles(unless you have a CCW). The locality I live in prohibits the carrying of loaded firearms in public view. This came about because of a fella that walked around with a six shooter on all the time, acting like a moron.


    I am ardent 2nd ammendment supporter, as well as concealed carry permit holder and LEO. I have no issues with dealing with those that are carrying concealed and have a permit. But in this time period with events like VA Tech I think it would be prudent to carry your handgun in a manner that doesn't scream "pay attention to me i've got a gun on my hip".

    As far as making a complaint, if you feel you should then make your formal complaint in person, in writing and respectfully. Ifs it is your word against his on how he handled the call, or what he said then don't expect the complaint to be substantiated.


    In red above. The first part clearly tells us "what" he did, (open carry) but the second part about "acting like a "moron" doesn't tell us anything but someone's (your's?) opinion. I have a feeling that merely the fact that the man decided to exercise his citizen right by open carry is solely what made some people put him in the "moron" class.

    Would everyone preferred he carried concealed and acted like a "moron?" I myself would prefer that someone who is a "moron" carry openly so I can clearly see what they have with them. If they are breaking any laws, open carry will make it that much easier to notice and arrest them.

    In short, the citizens of this country were carrying guns long before there was much in the way of an organized law enforcement community or even any LEO's to carry their firearms. Citizens can exist without government (and have and may again) and LEO's, but government and LEO's cannot exist without the citizens.

    BTW, I appreciate, value and respect the majority of LEO's (this probably includes you) and I know they are the main reason my wife and daughter can drive across town at night with little risk of problems.
  • oldgunneroldgunner Member Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I live in Tennessee. I don't carry open, but I consider it one more of my rights that I'm thankful I still have. There aren't all that many anymore...
  • Wagon WheelWagon Wheel Member Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    oldgunner:

    A little advice. If you've got it, use it or stand to lose it!!

    Utahns exercise right to openly carry firearms
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1927506/posts
  • chaoslodgechaoslodge Member Posts: 790 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Interesting topic.

    Here in NC we have, of course, a CCW license. Technically we can also carry openly. However,... there is a statute that concerns "going armed to the terror of the public" which allows paranoid ninnies to complain. In the event they do, the police have the right to detain you and make you put the thing away.

    Personally I find open carry distasteful. The only time open carry is appropriate is in conjunction with a uniform. I think detectives should be required to keep thiers concealed too.

    On a tactical level it is not that wise to carry openly either. While it might deter some scum, it makes it obvious to the ones that know what they are about who to take out first. Why walk around making yourself a target?

    Lastly, having known quite a few cops, I can tell you that the law is never thier strong suit. Enforcement is what they do.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by chaoslodge
    Interesting topic.

    Here in NC we have, of course, a CCW license. Technically we can also carry openly. However,... there is a statute that concerns "going armed to the terror of the public" which allows paranoid ninnies to complain. In the event they do, the police have the right to detain you and make you put the thing away.

    Personally I find open carry distasteful. The only time open carry is appropriate is in conjunction with a uniform. I think detectives should be required to keep thiers concealed too.

    On a tactical level it is not that wise to carry openly either. While it might deter some scum, it makes it obvious to the ones that know what they are about who to take out first. Why walk around making yourself a target?

    Lastly, having known quite a few cops, I can tell you that the law is never thier strong suit. Enforcement is what they do.


    I don't think anyone here is saying it is a good idea to carry openly. We are just saying that as many "rights" as possible, whether "good idea" rights or not, should always be available to us. Otherwise, rights will soon start to become open to subjective interpertation and you and I will find some of our rights being eliminated because those rights do not sound like a good idea to those in power at the moment.

    IOW, in America, supposely one of the most free countries run and owned by the citizens, generally NO right should be off limits for a responsible, careful and lawful citizen if the excerise of that right causes no harm.
  • RockatanskyRockatansky Member Posts: 11,175
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by tr fox
    quote:Originally posted by chaoslodge
    Interesting topic.

    Here in NC we have, of course, a CCW license. Technically we can also carry openly. However,... there is a statute that concerns "going armed to the terror of the public" which allows paranoid ninnies to complain. In the event they do, the police have the right to detain you and make you put the thing away.

    Personally I find open carry distasteful. The only time open carry is appropriate is in conjunction with a uniform. I think detectives should be required to keep thiers concealed too.

    On a tactical level it is not that wise to carry openly either. While it might deter some scum, it makes it obvious to the ones that know what they are about who to take out first. Why walk around making yourself a target?

    Lastly, having known quite a few cops, I can tell you that the law is never thier strong suit. Enforcement is what they do.


    I don't think anyone here is saying it is a good idea to carry openly.


    And why is that?
  • chaoslodgechaoslodge Member Posts: 790 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    My bad, I misinterpreted.

    Happy holiday
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Rockatansky
    quote:Originally posted by tr fox
    quote:Originally posted by chaoslodge
    Interesting topic.

    Here in NC we have, of course, a CCW license. Technically we can also carry openly. However,... there is a statute that concerns "going armed to the terror of the public" which allows paranoid ninnies to complain. In the event they do, the police have the right to detain you and make you put the thing away.

    Personally I find open carry distasteful. The only time open carry is appropriate is in conjunction with a uniform. I think detectives should be required to keep thiers concealed too.

    On a tactical level it is not that wise to carry openly either. While it might deter some scum, it makes it obvious to the ones that know what they are about who to take out first. Why walk around making yourself a target?

    Lastly, having known quite a few cops, I can tell you that the law is never thier strong suit. Enforcement is what they do.


    I don't think anyone here is saying it is a good idea to carry openly.


    And why is that?


    Because the people whom you might have to use that visible firearm against will probably be carrying their firearm concealed. Therefore, they will know you possess a firearm but you will not know they also possess one. This gives your potential assailant the edge on you.

    In addition, every since the cowardly 9-1-1 World Trade Center attacks the idea of gun rights/possession has become more popular with the general population. Reason being that more Americans have come to realize that there really, really are people out there who hate us and would like to kill us. So IMHO, attitudes towards gun rights are on the ascent. But the majority of Americans are not ready to see numerous civilians walking around wearing firearms.

    Now there are some here who have the attitute of "It's my constitutional right to walk around with a firearm so to Hell with anyone and everyone who disagrees". And I expect to soon seen their angry posts about this. But I am not disagreeing with their claim to such a firearm carry right, and I hope there comes a day when the majority of non-gun owning Americans agree. But until then it would be prudent to least be a little careful about what we expect the non-gun owning Americans to accept from our behavior.
  • guntech59guntech59 Member Posts: 23,187 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by chaoslodge
    Interesting topic.

    Here in NC we have, of course, a CCW license. Technically we can also carry openly. However,... there is a statute that concerns "going armed to the terror of the public" which allows paranoid ninnies to complain. In the event they do, the police have the right to detain you and make you put the thing away.

    Personally I find open carry distasteful. The only time open carry is appropriate is in conjunction with a uniform. I think detectives should be required to keep thiers concealed too.

    On a tactical level it is not that wise to carry openly either. While it might deter some scum, it makes it obvious to the ones that know what they are about who to take out first. Why walk around making yourself a target?

    Lastly, having known quite a few cops, I can tell you that the law is never thier strong suit. Enforcement is what they do.

    How can anyone enforce laws if they don't know them? That's like being a baseball umpire without knowing the rules!

    I don't expect the cops to know EVERYTHING but I expect them to know more than me (about the law).
  • winchester77winchester77 Member Posts: 3
    edited November -1
    I could be wrong but isnt a grocery store private property and thus not subject to open carry or conceal carry laws ?
  • Aaron.Combs1Aaron.Combs1 Member Posts: 217 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    heh the officer was wrong about FL. here agian proving that police do not know anything. we canot openly carry in FL. unless we are in our home or vehicle (as long as we have a permit)i have been told by the officers in my area as i work close with them, "that it is not their job to decide if some one is right or wrong. that is the courts to decide. officers jobs are just to arest suspects"
  • oldgunneroldgunner Member Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    trfox..Very well thought out and well said, my friend. I'm glad I came back to this topic. I hadn't looked in a few days.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by oldgunner
    trfox..Very well thought out and well said, my friend. I'm glad I came back to this topic. I hadn't looked in a few days.


    Thanks oldgunner. Your attitude is greatly appreciated by me. I don't get such support often.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Please allow me to interject myself here.

    I know firsthand of a murder here within 20 miles of where I sit.. murders carried out by a little rat slimebag that drove a lawn mower and little trailer up to an openly carrying victim.
    The shotgun was in the trailer.mixed in among hoes and shovels.
    The perp stopped the mower, * the shotgun out, and killed two people within 30 seconds.
    Had the victim been carrying concealed, I believe the perp would have held the victim at gunpoint for a bit.enjoying himself.and giving time for a draw.
    That is speculation on my part.but it changed a lifetime of believing in open carry in one stroke, for my part.

    See.honorable, decent people tend to believe OTHER people are honorable and basically decent, also.and that is why decent people die so often at the hands of scum.the inability to grasp the concept that pure evil DOES INDEED EXIST.and a robber/rapist/ burglar, ect is well down the path of evil.
    That concealed weapon may well be the difference between a fighting chance..and a round to the head instantly by a prepared slimebag.
  • WoundedWolfWoundedWolf Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    We are discussing two different things here...tactics vs. legality.

    There is no reason why open carry should be illegal. There is no reason why people carrying openly should be harassed by law enforcement or their fellow citizens.

    Now, is it tactically wise to carry openly? Probably not in most situations. It usually is best to keep the element of surprise, rather than announcing yourself as armed to all whom are present.

    So, law enforcement are typically ignorant about open carry law, in my observation, which addresses the original point. Do I carry openly? No way, I spent a lot of time and money so I could LEGALLY carry concealed.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Wounded Wolf;
    SPLENDID !!

    Two different subjects entirely..I missed it.

    That, folks, is what makes this such a great forum..somebody comes along and clears things up.
  • RockatanskyRockatansky Member Posts: 11,175
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Highball
    Wounded Wolf;
    SPLENDID !!

    Two different subjects entirely..I missed it.

    That, folks, is what makes this such a great forum..somebody comes along and clears things up.


    Some brave soul deleted what's been said just before you, which was exactly the same thing.
  • Pa.BillPa.Bill Member Posts: 321 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by PAgunman
    In my area ... state police consider you the bad person --right away! In fact one guy told me that they are taught to think this way.. you are ok if you are a cop,-- cop family member---or you are the bad guy!!
    I love my country!--- but I fear the goverment!
    In fact in my area-- the state police told me they are the Law!
    If you go to file a complaint aboout a officer... they sit down with him and tell them who complained and everything.. and that is as far as it goes!! they answer to no one!! and yes!-- you will probly will receive reprocussions from it!!!!



    100% correct.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    This thread seems to be missing some posts .....

    Nah .

    Sometimes I forget that we MUST be PC. We should never say anything that offends anyone. Which amendment was it now that garunteed our right to NOT be offended ? It slips my memory.
  • RockatanskyRockatansky Member Posts: 11,175
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by freemind
    This thread seems to be missing some posts .....


    Yup. SOME, like half the thread is gone.

    quote:Originally posted by freemind

    Sometimes I forget that we MUST be PC. We should never say anything that offends anyone. Which amendment was it now that garunteed our right to NOT be offended ? It slips my memory.


    Yeah, in "constitutional" law forum too. Private-shmrivate, but it's just disgusting when someone, without announcement, is censoring out very relevant information. Oh well, I guess there are other forums, other people and plenty of other business to patronize. [:)]
  • pickenuppickenup Member Posts: 22,844 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    When it degenerated into attacking the "person" rather than his/her ideals/beliefs, then yes, there are other forums, other people and plenty of other business to patronize.

    It's locked now.
    Better?
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