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NRA Bashing II
slumlord44
Member Posts: 3,702 ✭✭✭
Do not like the NRA policy? Join it and change it from within! If the NRA had never existed, does anyone realy think we would have the active gun culuture that we have in this country. Sometimes I wonder if some of the critics are not liberal Democrats trying to destroy us from within. Love the NRA or hate it, it is still our best bet for keeping our freedom to own firearms. If every gun owner in the country would join the NRA, no Democrat or Republician would dare to mess with us! I think I have just talked myself into paying for a NRA membership for my brother-in-law. He thinks gun control is just a barganing chip for the politicans. It is. The problem is it is a chip that we always seem to lose, and never win. Brother-in-law is actualy just to cheap to spend the money. I think I will hold off buying a box or two of ammo at the next gun show and pay his membership. If we all did this, Hillary might have to think twice about taking us on!
Comments
Do not like the NRA policy? Join it and change it from within! If the NRA had never existed, does anyone realy think we would have the active gun culuture that we have in this country. Sometimes I wonder if some of the critics are not liberal Democrats trying to destroy us from within. Love the NRA or hate it, it is still our best bet for keeping our freedom to own firearms. If every gun owner in the country would join the NRA, no Democrat or Republician would dare to mess with us! I think I have just talked myself into paying for a NRA membership for my brother-in-law. He thinks gun control is just a barganing chip for the politicans. It is. The problem is it is a chip that we always seem to lose, and never win. Brother-in-law is actualy just to cheap to spend the money. I think I will hold off buying a box or two of ammo at the next gun show and pay his membership. If we all did this, Hillary might have to think twice about taking us on!
Thank you for your reasonable, rational thoughts but you will not get much of a welcome around here. You would probably get a friendlier reaction if you went to some anti-gun website.
Buy the ammunition; it is a better investment, however, if you enjoy pissing away your money, spring for the NRA membership. [:D]
Point being, the NRA is un-necessary. Lazy people enable and legitimize it's existance, same as they do a behemoth liberty stealing central government. Lazy lazy lazy.[:(!]
quote: If we all did this, Hillary might have to think twice about taking us on!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...oh man![:D]
We exist, 90 million of us. And "we" require the services of a lacky organization to help us? I think they would only get worried if we started getting off our lazy * and making our beliefs known at the local polling station. Since we don't, they can laugh at us arm in arm with Wayne and CO.
The only reason we still have our freedom to own firearms, as well as the other rights we still have is simple;
we have the right to own firearms. This, not the NRA, has served as the only deterrent to tyranny for the last 200+ years, and it is still the only deterrent today. What is so dangerous, though, is that instead of taking away the RTKBA all at once, we have a system of "incrementalism"; a slow death. The powers that be realize that an attempt to totally disolve the RTKBA would be met with a resistance that has not been witnessed on American soil since the late 18th century. Instead, they have chipped away a little at a time, with plots like "common-sense" regulation and "legitimate sporting purpose". While it is enough to make some of us frothing mad, to most gun owners, it is just mildly-irritating; therein lies the danger, the danger being apathy. Another danger borne out of all this is greed, one of the hallmarks of the organization you claim to be "our best bet for RTKBA freedom." Not only has the NRA allowed most of the "chipping away" to pass unopposed, but they have given direct support to it.
So no, the NRA and Wayne Iscariot is not our best bet. Our only hope lies in ourselves doing the right things, such as:
1) Getting off our a$$es and taking a pro-active approach to electing true conservative elected leaders.
2) When an anti-freedom bill is being pushed in your locality, State, or the Federal govt, flood your elected official office with emails, phone calls, etc. and tell them, "Hey, this is not right!", and have documented facts to back it up. Let them know that any compromise on the 2nd will have a direct impact come election day (however this will only work if #1 happens)
3) refuse to give any and all support to organizations that compromise or worse regarding 2nd issues.
When the final blow comes to RTKBA, and believe me, it will, do you truly believe the NRA will stand behind you? They will not. They will leave your * to the gators faster than fat kids to a bursted pinata. That's just my 2 cents, however, your have a decision to make. You can do the research of the documented facts, and in doing so, you will see that i am telling you the absolute, unadulterated truth OR you can give your money to Benedict Lapierre, and help them support even more of the "chipping away" and eventual destruction of the 2nd that is to come.
So true, but the imagery is still funny.[:D]
Firedude, pickenup has produced an expose` of those facts you speak of longer than your arm, and posted it here a few times. It was incredible to read that, and hten watch as a handful of people, willfully ignorant, refused to accept the facts layed out, and continued their completely flawed support of the NRA traitors. trfox is the most boisterous of them. Oddly, only a few short years ago he was 50/50 on the issue. As more facts came to light, the more he went against them. Confusing. I still like him though.
quote:The will leave your * to the gators faster than fat kids to a bursted pinata.[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]
So true, but the imagery is still funny.[:D]
Firedude, pickenup has produced an expose` of those facts you speak of longer than your arm, and posted it here a few times. It was incredible to read that, and hten watch as a handful of people, willfully ignorant, refused to accept the facts layed out, and continued their completely flawed support of the NRA traitors. trfox is the most boisterous of them. Oddly, only a few short years ago he was 50/50 on the issue. As more facts came to light, the more he went against them. Confusing. I still like him though.
Well......at least I have one friend.
fox, i've read a lot of your posts, and i would agree with a lot of it; it's just that danged NRA isuue, but yeah, i like you, so you can make that 2 of us.[:D]
Some people say, if you don't like it, change it, or start your own organization. The "idea" of changing from within, or starting your own group, is nothing new, as seen below. These people spent YEARS trying for change from within, and for various reasons, they COULD NOT!
Now, some expect a few lowly PEON members, to be able to walk in off the street, and effect change? Do we even have the time left, to re-invent the wheel?
Lets start with H. L. Richardson. He was a board member of the NRA for 10 years. Did he see a problem with their policies? When he found he could NOT change it from within, he left and started the Gun Owners Of America. What is now, the second largest gun rights activist organization in the country. Which is also known by MOST as the "NO COMPROMISE" gun lobby.
Then we can turn out attention to Neal Knox, a career gun rights activist. A board member, as well as serving four years for the NRA, as the Executive Director of the Institute For Legislative Action. Which is the lobbying arm of the NRA. He too must have had a problem with the policies of the NRA, found it impossible to change from within, as he went on to found the Firearms Coalition. Another well known "NO COMPROMISE" organization.
When Neal Knox was on the board, there was a vote to see if Executive Vice President (LaPierre) should be suspended or removed from office. It was supported by a solid 39-30 majority, but short of the two-thirds which was required for passage. At that time, what the Board majority didn't know, was that the previous week LaPierre and his supporters had secretly ordered the placement of a full page ad in the ballot issue of the NRA magazines-six weeks after the published deadline for election ads. The ad worked. five of the nine were defeated, tipping the balance of power on the Board back into LaPierre`s favor.
Nancyann Rutledge, who was the President of the Santa Barbara NRA Members Council, later to become the Citizens Gun Rights Alliance. What happened to her? After refusing to support the NRA's gun control positions, and anti-gun candidates, she was decertified by the NRA.
Dave Edmondson, a 2-term NRA Director. Another in a long line of past Directors, board members, etc. which are vocal critics of the NRA's leadership and direction. Dave went on to be founder of the "State Association Coordinating Committee."
Neil Smith, a life member of the NRA, is an outspoken gun rights activist who is NOT happy with the NRA. He is founder of International Coordinator of the Libertarian Second Amendment Caucus.
A few other facts.
What about Clarence Lovell, an ex-member of the NRA Board of Directors for 14 years. He left because, "he could no longer stomach the falsity of those heading the NRA."
Albert Ross, former NRA Directors, and second Vice President. Who is now Texas State Rifle Association Director, strongly CONDEMNS the NRA's very own program, Project Exile. Sighting Project Exile as laws that are unconstitutional violations of the Second Amendment.
Other Board Directors, board members, life members, endowment members, etc that condemned the NRA for Project Exile. Former Chairman, NRA High-power Committee, David Gross, Larry R. Rankin, Arthur Nichols, H.S. "Gunnie" Reagan, Chris BeHanna, Robert T Fanning, Jr., Don Loucks, Jim Ramm, Anthony Brian, Jack H. Stuart, Arnold Gaunt, Clarence Lovell, Richard L. Carone, and more.
Some of the comments C. Russell Howard made when he resigned from the NRA board.
"The unholy alliance of NRA leaders, vendors, and Republican elements is the reason why NRA is declining in stature.
(Addressing LaPierre)
Compared to Mr. Knox's influence, you run the Board like a concentration camp commandant
The struggle for the right of the people to keep and bear arms is at the core of a fundamental struggle for freedom....In any conflict, if those on the front lines cannot trust and rely on the honor of their comrades, the cause is doomed. While there are many good and honorable people on the Board with various stands on the current power struggle, there are some who cannot be trusted and are without honor."
Well......at least I have one friend.
fox, i've read a lot of your posts, and i would agree with a lot of it; it's just that danged NRA isuue, but yeah, i like you, so you can make that 2 of us.[:D]
Yeah, I'm becoming a not so enthusiastic supporter as time goes on. I also am a dues paying member of the GOA & SAF, although even at that many here would criticize me. Saying such things as we don't need organizations to fight for our rights, or just send in your does money (I do more than that) and then forget about it, etc.
But thanks for the kind words. They kinda cancel out a lot of the other kinds.
funny thing is that regarding most of my detractors, they attack me for supporting the NRA. But even if I am 100% wrong in that support, as least I am spending time, money and effort to at least try and fight for gun rights. Yet my detractors will always attack me while at the same time giving a free pass to gun owners here who do absolutely nothing to help with the gun rights war. One would think that my detractors would have no patience with such free loaders. But they seem to value the free loaders over someone like me who, while perhaps fighting in the wrong direction, I am at least out there fighting.
quote:Originally posted by wsfiredude
Well......at least I have one friend.
fox, i've read a lot of your posts, and i would agree with a lot of it; it's just that danged NRA isuue, but yeah, i like you, so you can make that 2 of us.[:D]
Yeah, I'm becoming a not so enthusiastic supporter as time goes on. I also am a dues paying member of the GOA & SAF, although even at that many here would criticize me. Saying such things as we don't need organizations to fight for our rights, or just send in your does money (I do more than that) and then forget about it, etc.
But thanks for the kind words. They kinda cancel out a lot of the other kinds.
funny thing is that regarding most of my detractors, they attack me for supporting the NRA. But even if I am 100% wrong in that support, as least I am spending time, money and effort to at least try and fight for gun rights. Yet my detractors will always attack me while at the same time giving a free pass to gun owners here who do absolutely nothing to help with the gun rights war. One would think that my detractors would have no patience with such free loaders. But they seem to value the free loaders over someone like me who, while perhaps fighting in the wrong direction, I am at least out there fighting.
GOA is the best. I left the NRA as soon as I learned that they supported the Machine Gun ban of 1986. The one law that I absolutely MUST have repealed, and they supported it, continue to support it, and now dismiss it as irrelevant. If a regular law abiding citizen can't even register a machine gun because of its manufacture date, something is seriously wrong. Not that it should need to be registered. Add to this their support for GCA '68, NFA '34, George H.W. "Assault weapon import ban" Bush, and George W. "I will sign the assault weapon ban" Bush, and you've got an organization I wouldn't give a single penny to.
Now my actions go to supporting the GOA, and teaching others about correct firearms usage, and the importance of owning guns.
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by wsfiredude
Well......at least I have one friend.
fox, i've read a lot of your posts, and i would agree with a lot of it; it's just that danged NRA isuue, but yeah, i like you, so you can make that 2 of us.[:D]
Yeah, I'm becoming a not so enthusiastic supporter as time goes on. I also am a dues paying member of the GOA & SAF, although even at that many here would criticize me. Saying such things as we don't need organizations to fight for our rights, or just send in your does money (I do more than that) and then forget about it, etc.
But thanks for the kind words. They kinda cancel out a lot of the other kinds.
funny thing is that regarding most of my detractors, they attack me for supporting the NRA. But even if I am 100% wrong in that support, as least I am spending time, money and effort to at least try and fight for gun rights. Yet my detractors will always attack me while at the same time giving a free pass to gun owners here who do absolutely nothing to help with the gun rights war. One would think that my detractors would have no patience with such free loaders. But they seem to value the free loaders over someone like me who, while perhaps fighting in the wrong direction, I am at least out there fighting.
GOA is the best. I left the NRA as soon as I learned that they supported the Machine Gun ban of 1986. The one law that I absolutely MUST have repealed, and they supported it, continue to support it, and now dismiss it as irrelevant. If a regular law abiding citizen can't even register a machine gun because of its manufacture date, something is seriously wrong. Not that it should need to be registered. Add to this their support for GCA '68, NFA '34, George H.W. "Assault weapon import ban" Bush, and George W. "I will sign the assault weapon ban" Bush, and you've got an organization I wouldn't give a single penny to.
Now my actions go to supporting the GOA, and teaching others about correct firearms usage, and the importance of owning guns.
I applaud your efforts. What you are doing will probably go farther in saving our gun rights than most other things that are being done.
I applaud your efforts. What you are doing will probably go farther in saving our gun rights than most other things that are being done.
Thank you. Very much. [8D]
Do not like the NRA policy? Join it and change it from within!...
I beg to differ. Neil Knox was about as high up in the NRA as possible and Wayne the Vichy and his pet PR firm decided that is 100% pro RKBA stance was "too extreme" and gave him the boot.
The "voting membership" means almost nothing to Wayne's PR Machine other than as a fundraising pool.
And I say that as a long ignored Voting Life Member.[V] THe NRA gets my annual ballot, but the GOA and JPFO get my meager RKBA dollars.
Perhaps you need to read a bit more.
Where else but a gun based forum would the thirst for gun freedom exist more strongly ?
When people see and observe the 'Primere' Gun Rights Organization selling them out..where are we supposed to go ? Hillarys' web site ?
Surely one could understand..if one tried really hard..how WONDERFUL this site could REALLY be..if we had our freedom to buy and sell FREELY on this site..person-to-person ? Could you IMAGINE the surge in sales ?
Can't do that, tho..IN PART BECAUSE THE NRA HELPED STOP MAIL ORDER SALES....
Perhaps you need to read a bit more.
+1
MARCH 1968 EDITION
PAGES 22 AND 23.
Then go here and learn the REAL truth about this NRA supported new gun control...
http://www.gunowners.org/a010808.htm
It is amusing to me for the NRA types to stoutly proclaim that 'NOBODY has been hurt by this fine new law'..stupidly forgetting that laws don't take effect overnight...that 5-10 years down the road is when the REAL horrible things begin to happen...
AMERICAN RIFLEMAN MAGAZINE,
MARCH 1968 EDITION
PAGES 22 AND 23.
Damn pickenup, you beat me to it.[:D]
Of course, we'll probably have to C&P the relevant sections, since that issue has all but disappeared and unless it is on a spoon and gently held directly up to his "NRA adoring" lips, he won't believe it.
Go figure.
I read a lot. Quote me issue and page # from the Americian Rifleman where gun control is promoted and I will gladly check it out. Will stand corrected if I am wrong.
Here you go sir. This post is right here on Gun Rights and Constitutional Law. Read the original, opening post. It has multiple DIRECT quotes from the National Rifleman edition that pickenup provided for you.
No apology will be necessary from you, just a new set of "open eyes" is sufficient.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=293126
Sarah Thompson, M.D.
A lot of people claim that NRA stands for "Not Relevant Anymore".
I wish it were true. Unfortunately, the NRA is about as irrelevant as Chuck Schumer, Dianne Feinstein and Frank Lautenberg - and much more effective at promoting gun control. The NRA is relevant; but it's Not Rational Anymore.
Thanks to the NRA, we have the National Firearms Act of 1934, the Gun Control Act of 1968, Brady registration, and Project Exile. Now, in addition, we will likely have six more years of Orrin Hatch and four more of Mike Leavitt.
That's right. The NRA spent a lot of money and went to a great deal of trouble to support and endorse Utah's elite anti-gun duo. They helped Hatch get the Republican nomination for his re-election and helped keep Leavitt from losing his nomination.
Most of you are probably familiar with Senator Hatch, and his abominable S. 254, the Juvenile InJustice Bill. Now that the NRA has done everything possible to give Hatch cover for his gun-grabbing ways, I expect the bill will explode out of the conference committee and land right in the middle of Clinton's desk. Hatch's own version of the bill (not including amendments by other anti-gun senators) includes the following:
Mandatory trigger locks with each sale
Mandatory registration of all gun show and pawn shop transactions
Mandatory registration of all firearms repairs
Mandatory 5 year prison sentence for parents whose children responsibly use certain semiautomatic firearms without written permission.
Increasing BATF funding by $40 million
Mandatory lifetime ban on firearms ownership for anyone who commits certain crimes as a juvenile
Hatch's excuse is that these are "pro-gun" provisions that will "protect" gun owners. Apparently he believes that if this bill is passed, the anti-gun forces will simply go away.
Other notable accomplishments of Utah's senior senator include:
Overseeing the Waco cover-up and declaring that the government had done nothing wrong
Voting against a prohibition on US troops serving in combat under UN command
Voting to confirm notoriously anti-gun Surgeon General, David Satcher, an advocate of fraudulent anti-gun "junk" science.
Voting to confirm liberal, activist judges including Richard Paez, Marsha Berzon, and Margaret Morrow
Refusing to allow the Freedom from Union Violence Act to emerge from the Senate Judiciary committee, thus endorsing violence as legitimate political activity.
Supporting the Chemical Weapons Treaty
Supporting taxpayer funding for the National Endowment for the Arts
This no doubt explains why the NRA flew Wayne LaPierre out to Salt Lake City to defend Orrin Hatch against angry gun owners. It no doubt explains why Charlton Heston sent me a letter explaining that "Senator Hatch has been one of the most committed, principled and consistently effective advocates of your Second Amendment rights on Capitol Hill. He's stood with the NRA and fought to protect your constitutional freedoms when others lacked the courage or the stamina to do so."
The last time I saw Sen. Hatch, he waggled his index finger at me and told me I was too stupid to understand how things are done in Washington and I should trust him to do the right thing. Maybe he's right; I certainly don't understand how registering my guns, rewarding the murderous BATF, and throwing me in prison for taking my son shooting with a 10-22 protects my rights.
Was Hatch at least better than his opponents? Absolutely not! Both (defeated) challengers Greg Hawkins and Frank Guliuzza are committed gun rights advocates who made their opposition to gun control a highlight of their campaigns. Hawkins failed to force a primary by only 53 votes out of 3500. By endorsing the only anti-gun candidate, and helping to eliminate the pro-gun candidates, the NRA made sure we'll have a choice between an anti-gun Republican and an anti-gun Democrat in November.
While it's not much of an excuse, it is true that Hatch was a supporter of gun rights twenty years ago when he was a freshman senator. This is more than can be said for Governor Mike Leavitt, who has never been an advocate of gun rights.
While Leavitt is best-known nationally for his support of an internet tax, here in Utah he's leading the gun control charge. He has actively supported the following:
Banning concealed carry in schools and churches (regardless of the wishes of the school or church authorities)
Prohibiting firearms possession for anyone convicted of one of a long list of misdemeanors, including spanking a child
Increasing fees for carry permits, background checks, instructor permits, etc.
A lifetime ban on firearms possession for anyone committed to a mental institution, even if the commitment was wrongful or the person recovered fully
Allowing public schools to question children about their parents' firearms ownership and use without parental notification or permission
Prohibiting firearms possession by juveniles adjudicated delinquent without a jury trial
Expanding prohibitions on handgun possession to include long gun possession
Calling a special session of the legislature specifically to enact gun control legislation
Yet, the NRA donated $10,000 to Leavitt's reelection campaign, and then endorsed him, writing: "Your record of accomplishment reflects the priorities and beliefs of the NRA membership, and we believe you are uniquely suited to be the Republican nominee for Governor of Utah in 2000.We look forward to continuing our relationship with you in the years ahead to continue preserving and protecting Utah's rich Second Amendment and hunting traditions."
Once again, all three of Leavitt's opponents, including current challenger, Glen Davis, are committed gun rights advocates, who focused on gun rights in their campaigns, attacked Leavitt's anti-gun record, and put their commitments in writing. Had the NRA chosen to support a pro-gun candidate, that person might now be Utah's Republican gubernatorial candidate.
The bottom line is that in Utah's two most critical contests, the NRA went out of its way to support and endorse the ONLY anti-gun candidate in each race! This is sickening beyond words.
What is going on here? I have no way of knowing for sure, although I hear those Potomac Swamp vapors are toxic to higher brain functions. But I have some ideas.
The NRA's business is gun control. Without gun control, the NRA would be reduced to teaching firearms safety and use, hunter education, and sponsoring sporting events. These are important and necessary functions, and the NRA does a good job with these non-political tasks. But the big money, the media attention and the glamour are in gun control. No gun control means no million dollar contracts, no dinners with celebrities, no lavish expense accounts, and no TV appearances.
The NRA needs gun control. So the NRA perpetuates gun control. They support anti-gun politicians, and when those anti-gun politicians propose more gun control, the NRA sends out more letters screaming for help, and another few million dollars roll in. What a scam!
Of course in order for the scam to work for very long, the NRA also needs to appear to be doing something. They need to be able to claim that they helped to elect pro-gun politicians. This means that the NRA is necessarily more concerned with supporting a winner than with supporting pro-gun candidates. Thus the NRA supports whomever they think will win, rather than the most pro-gun candidate.
The Utah governor's race is a perfect example. Mike Leavitt is solidly anti-gun, but the media insisted he was a "sure thing", with an 80% approval rating. So the NRA endorsed him, instead of any of the pro-gun candidates. They goofed. Gun owners hate "Slick Mikey", and booed him right off the stage. They forced Leavitt into a primary with pro-gun candidate Glen Davis. The NRA destroyed the best chance they had to elect a pro-gun governor of Utah, and may end up irreparably damaging the rights of Utah's gun owners. Even the Utah Shooting Sports Council, the NRA's usually docile ally, is furious at this betrayal.
These shameful shenanigans allow the NRA actually to support gun control by colluding with the media and the gun-grabbers. The anti-gun forces moan endlessly about the NRA and its "extremist" views, even though the NRA is neither "extreme" nor even very "pro-gun". The media then define the sides as NRA vs. Handgun Control, Inc. (HCI), giving us a choice between NRA sponsored gun control and HCI sponsored gun control. This completely eliminates the possibility of NO gun control from the discussion, and thus from the minds of the public. If your choices are limited to NRA gun control and HCI gun control, you can bet you'll end up with - you guessed it - gun control!
The problem here is not ordinary NRA members, many of whom are solid pro-gun, pro-liberty folks, many of whom I consider friends. These people don't believe that Mike Leavitt is "uniquely suited to be the Republican nominee for Governor of Utah". They're hard-working, responsible Americans who don't deserve to have their hard-earned money spent on anti-gun politicians.
If you're a Utah NRA member, you gave over $.50 to Leavitt this year! Meanwhile, all three of the pro-gun candidates combined spent less than the $10,000 the NRA gave this anti-gun zealot. What might have happened had the NRA decided to support one of the pro-gun challengers? (Consider that Glen Davis got 46% of the vote while spending only $3,000. It's mind boggling!)
What happened in Utah must not be allowed to happen in other states. It's time the NRA's reprehensible support for gun control and anti-gun politicians is exposed to NRA members and to the public. It's time people realize that the NRA is doing more harm than good. It's time to send the NRA the same message we send to people like Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy - NO MORE GUN CONTROL! Otherwise the NRA may end up endorsing Hillary Clinton this fall!
Please write to the following people to protest the NRA's support for gun control:
Mr. Randy Kozuch
NRA/ILA Director of State and Local Affairs
National Rifle Association of America
11250 Waples Mill Road
Fairfax, VA 22030
Mr. James Baker
NRA/ILA Director
National Rifle Association of America
11250 Waples Mill Road
Fairfax, VA 22030
You can also call 1-800-392-8683.
Nearly three years ago, I wrote the following Letter to the NRA:
When you decide to stop selling our birthright,
When you decide to stop supporting permits,
When you proclaim that each and every one of us is innocent until proven
guilty; that we need not subject ourselves to "background checks",
registration or bureaucracy,
When you refuse to tolerate evil,
When you are willing to call evil by its rightful name,
When you are willing to call genocide by its rightful name,
When you stop distracting yourselves and others with peripheral issues,
When you learn that a compromise with the devil is no compromise at all,
Then, and only then, will you have my support.
Until that time, may your chains rest lightly.
I'm still waiting for a response.
And for Not Rational Anymore to come to its senses.
(C) 2000, Sarah Thompson, M.D., and The Righter
Dr. Thompson is Former Executive Director of the Utah Gun Owners Alliance.
http://nrawol.net/
There are also people who should not drink alcohol, breed, drive a car or be allowed to continue to breathe for that matter but these are another issue.
We all agree that we do not want additional firearms restrictions. Less is better. No restrictions is not going to happen.
As long as the NRA bashers are supporting other orginazations and doing there part to let the powers that be know what we want, I have no problem with them. The great thing about this country is that we can disagree on issues without realy hateing each other.
Going to have to dig for awhile to find that 1968 Rifleman!
You guys hold a grudge as long as my ex-wife!
There was a comment about mail order guns being outlawed. Guns are bought and sold and sent throughout the country through this and other websights every day. I buy & sell guns this way all the time. Yes there are rules. Yes I do not like it either but we have rules in most thing we do.
I thought gentleman could agree to disagree. So now I am blind because I do not totaly agree? Thought I saw the last of this attitude in grade school
There is absolutely no room for disagreements about Gun Rights...sorry.
Either you believe in and support the Second Amendment.OR YOU DON'T.
Your continued support of the NRA means you do not support that document..so, no.'gentlemen' cannot agree to disagree.
Review the list of countries that have adopted Gun bans ..and the staggering numbers of the dead from totalitarian regimes.
Please don't even attempt to tell me that `it cannot happen here'.that will only reveal the utter lack of common sense I assume you possess.
The laws you so blithely pass off are merely the beginning of the end.witness the complete lack of humiliation you feel crawling on your belly begging your daddy to buy a gun.
The VERY IDEA that a full grown man feels no shame having to beg to buy a tool needed to defend his own and loved ones life is as fine an example of the feminization of America a person could possible give..For a man feels it keenly.
In my BLIND opinion, we will lose all our rights with this attitude.
We can bicker back and forth forever. Unless we fight together on what we agree on rather than fight over the details we are all lost. Hope you spend as much time and effort fighting for our rights in the real world. I keep my elected officials aprised of my objectios to their proposed restrictions.
Got no idea where this thing about beging for tools came from. I definately believe in and defend the second ammendment. I never said I accept or agree with current restrictions.
I NEVER said it can't happen here. I will happen here if you and I keep argueing with each other and do not each personally do something about it. I would be glad to lend my financial support to the orginization of your choice. I recieive a dozen or so gun publications monthly and bi monthly. Have hardly ever seen mention of another pro gun orginization. I am not to proud to support another orginization, the orginization of YOUR choice. Who do you recommend?
quote:In my BLIND opinion, we will lose all our rights with this attitude.
Yes..blind is the operative word. You ALREADY lost the Rights you speak of..replaced with permission from the government.
quote:We can bicker back and forth forever.
We are not bickering. We that support the Constitution are pointing out to you that don't the error of your ways. Your strawmen that you keep setting up merely is your attempt to confuse the issue.
quote:Unless we fight together on what we agree on rather than fight over the details we are all lost. We have found nothing we agree on, yet.
What you consider 'details' I consider the heart of the matter...the power of the government to control firearms..and you and the NRA agreement with that power.
quote: Hope you spend as much time and effort fighting for our rights in the real world.
So you are not 'real'..ehhh ? Lt496, Pickenup,Freemind, Chas,Old Ironsights..and the dozens more on this site are figments of my imagination ? Really ?
These forums have given those of us supporting the Constitution the means to compare notes, to find that we are not alone in our objections to the sell-out of the NRA..
Each one of us reach out to how many others ?....
quote: I keep my elected officials aprised of my objectios to their proposed restrictions.A waste of time. They are going to do what they want in the end...and the quicker the better, in my opinion.
quote:Got no idea where this thing about beging for tools came from. When you go buy a chainsaw, or an axe, or a hammer...do you ask permission from ANYBODY to do so ? Or do you walk in and buy it ?
Funny thing IS....they COULD restrict all those items...BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT COVERED UNDER THE SECOND AMENDMENT !!! Yet you feel perfectly comfortable crawling on your belly begging from officials to buy items specifically delineated in the BOR as UNTOUCHABLE BY THE GOVERNMENT !!
quote:I definately believe in and defend the second ammendment. I never said I accept or agree with current restrictions.Your continuing support for the NRA...even after learning about the darker facts..speaks VOLUMES about exactly where you stand.
quote:I NEVER said it can't happen here. I will happen here if you and I keep argueing with each other and do not each personally do something about it.
I. personally, AM doing something about it..educating as many people as I can about their precious heritage. NOT the mess of pottage the NRA puts forth...the REAL reason for the Second existing.
What are YOU doing ? Sending money to the NRA...to contribute to the total loss of your own guns, in the end...
quote:I would be glad to lend my financial support to the orginization of your choice. I recieive a dozen or so gun publications monthly and bi monthly. Have hardly ever seen mention of another pro gun orginization. I am not to proud to support another orginization, the orginization of YOUR choice. Who do you recommend?
Ask some one else that question. My belief is that the system is too far gone for political means to solve the problem.
My belief is that the only solution is to allow the corrupt slimebags their head. They will ban guns in a very few years, if allowed...
And then John Q. Beer Belly can make the decision to obey the Constitution...or the government.
Can you trust a government that taxes you, then gives your money to other people, other countries, and for causes you do not approve of?
Can you trust a government that is regulating everything, treating you as if you are child of the state?
Can you trust a government that sanctions waterboarding, voiding habeaus corpus, and can wiretaps with a warrant?
The whole issue here is trust. You think the government at all levels, Federal, State, and local, can really decide what is best by limiting what firearms can be owned? Why is it we are supposed to trust our government to have all the cool toys... Nukes, bioweapons, tanks, artillery, fighter aircraft, full auto weapons, grenades, etc., and we cannot be trusted to have a semi-auto pistol with more than 10 round in the magazine ( at least where I live)?
Ask yourself this question--If this is a government of the people, by the people and for the people, why are some of the people better armed than others? are government people "more equal" than others, even in a so-called democracy? From whom does the government supposed to derive it's powers from?
slumlord44, the issue of RBKA is tied to some many other issues related to government.
Can you trust a government that taxes you, then gives your money to other people, other countries, and for causes you do not approve of?
Can you trust a government that is regulating everything, treating you as if you are child of the state?
Can you trust a government that sanctions waterboarding, voiding habeaus corpus, and can wiretaps with a warrant?
The whole issue here is trust. You think the government at all levels, Federal, State, and local, can really decide what is best by limiting what firearms can be owned? Why is it we are supposed to trust our government to have all the cool toys... Nukes, bioweapons, tanks, artillery, fighter aircraft, full auto weapons, grenades, etc., and we cannot be trusted to have a semi-auto pistol with more than 10 round in the magazine ( at least where I live)?
Ask yourself this question--If this is a government of the people, by the people and for the people, why are some of the people better armed than others? are government people "more equal" than others, even in a so-called democracy Constitutional Republic? From whom does the government supposed to derive it's powers from?
[:D]Nicely done.[;)]
quote:I thought gentleman could agree to disagreeAbout sports teams, Chevy/Ford, Blonde/Redheads...you bet.
There is absolutely no room for disagreements about Gun Rights...sorry.
Either you believe in and support the Second Amendment.OR YOU DON'T.
Your continued support of the NRA means you do not support that document..so, no.'gentlemen' cannot agree to disagree.
Review the list of countries that have adopted Gun bans ..and the staggering numbers of the dead from totalitarian regimes.
Please don't even attempt to tell me that `it cannot happen here'.that will only reveal the utter lack of common sense I assume you possess.
The laws you so blithely pass off are merely the beginning of the end.witness the complete lack of humiliation you feel crawling on your belly begging your daddy to buy a gun.
The VERY IDEA that a full grown man feels no shame having to beg to buy a tool needed to defend his own and loved ones life is as fine an example of the feminization of America a person could possible give..For a man feels it keenly.
Yep, in some people's mind, gentlemenly disagreement is fine. Until you disagree with something they don't want you to disagree about. Kinda like the Taliban and Islam.
slumlord44, your heart is in the right place. I used to feel the same way. I still love my country, and the Constitution. But if you have to wait till re-election to vote a politician in office, it's too late, the damage is done! Besides, too many of the sheeple will still vote for them, because while he is taking away our rights, he is seducing them with welfare perks to vote for him again. Worse, the executive of the US government has garnered so much power unto itself, it is no longer answerable to either us or Congress. Now Congress still could do something to check the runaway power of the President, but they care so divided among themselves, that they cannot get enough of a majority to do so.
For example, I wrote my Republican Congressman asking him to encourage Congress to over-ride the President's veto on the ban to prevent the CIA from using severe interrogation techniques such as water boarding. All he did is send me a form letter that was non-committal, and state that our personal liberties must be weight against the interests of national security.
The NRA does not want the controversy over RBKA to end--If it did, they would be out of business. So they play both ends in the middle, while they continue to enrich themselves with NRA fees and contributions from the gun manufacturers.
quote:HighballI figured if I got you going long enough you would tell me where you realy stand. You have given up so shut up.
Your stupidity is showing, again.
"GIVING UP" is your speciality..you and the NRA.
Were I 'given up' as you so proudly proclaim...some errent electrical current firing randomly in your brain giving you that 'thought'..I would not be here attempting to educate you.
quote:You refuse to spend a dime towards any orginization that may help the fight. YOU and those with your attitude are the problem. Blaming the NRA is a cop out.
Been there..done that. Seen my RIGHTS being gutted steadily over the last 40 years..all with the help of people like you.
quote:Blame the politicans-yes. Give up on fighting the government and you are done!
Once again..you presume too much.
TRFox;
I am about done being nice to you. You have 100 % gone over to the dark side...and I pity you.
You, Sir, have cast your lot with those that will disarm and murder your loved ones one of these days...rest easy, knowing that.
You gave up. You admited it. I have not. If you refuse to continue the fight and/or put your money where your mouth is, shut up.Just watched John Adams on HBO. If he had your attitude we would still be a British colony.
You gave up. You admited it
Yessir..you are right.
I gave up on useless endeavors.
I gave up on supporting people that refuse to uphold the founding documents..
I gave up on rotten corrupt politicians.
I gave up on begging politicians to please obey the Constitution.
I gave up on sending money to organizations that sat down with the devil and took my Rights away.
I gave up on common citizens too illogical to follow the trail enough to even get a DIM grasp of what they are losing by blindly following mis-leaders.
I gave up believing that somehow gun owners that support gun control will magically transform into mighty gladiators on my side the day the gun ban happens.
I gave up wanting to push this problem off on our children ..cowardly turning my back on the problem, hoping against hope that I can retain some small gun permissions as long as I live, at least..
I gave up stupidly crawling on my belly begging for permission to buy a gun ..while I might do it yet today, it is with a sense of real revulsion for the garbage that forces me to do so.and that includes the anti-gun gun owners out there.
I gave up believing that CCWs' is somehow GOOD.that taking a Right and making it permission from slimy bureauRATS is just sooo cool.
Yeah.I have given up.
Just too bad you aren't smart enough to do so.