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Highjacked!
chaoslodge
Member Posts: 790 ✭✭✭✭
This is actually a thread for calling each other names. If you can't be an absolute jerk please participate elsewhere.
[:D]
There might be a real advantage to a government, bent on controlling its population, in respecting the 2nd Amendment. Completely doing away with any regulations concerning the RTKABA could be a grand propaganda coup.
A significant part of the population would perceive itself as being empowered again and stop "agitating" over the injustices of gun control. The political establishment could crow loudly about how it had restored the rights of Americans and claim whatever mandates it wanted to from the political capital it would reap.
While day to day safety from criminals would increase with the citizenries ability to personally protect themselves, their ability to protect themselves from their government would be hardly any different than it was with gun control. Government is always going to have a technological and organizational edge over its citizens. While there may be a few gun owners who would be able to organize themselves and afford technology that would be on a par with LE and the military, they will be the exception. Bread and circuses will be enough to distract most of the population from even bothering with firearms.
[:D]
There might be a real advantage to a government, bent on controlling its population, in respecting the 2nd Amendment. Completely doing away with any regulations concerning the RTKABA could be a grand propaganda coup.
A significant part of the population would perceive itself as being empowered again and stop "agitating" over the injustices of gun control. The political establishment could crow loudly about how it had restored the rights of Americans and claim whatever mandates it wanted to from the political capital it would reap.
While day to day safety from criminals would increase with the citizenries ability to personally protect themselves, their ability to protect themselves from their government would be hardly any different than it was with gun control. Government is always going to have a technological and organizational edge over its citizens. While there may be a few gun owners who would be able to organize themselves and afford technology that would be on a par with LE and the military, they will be the exception. Bread and circuses will be enough to distract most of the population from even bothering with firearms.
Comments
Well if you really don't mind I will. You asked.[:D]
Yeah Hunter but we all know you can do better than that. Please elaborate so I understand why I am an idiot (armed idiot [:p] that is)
Well ..you got a good start, there.
The problem I see, from MY perspective is ..the Second Amendment is only the anvil I beat continually ..as the most important of the varied Rights we are accorded from God.
The INSTANT that Right is fully recognized ..then we turn our attention somewhere else ..Emanate Domain, the Budget, corruption, road blocks..
There will be NO `honeymoon' given the government just because they decided to obey the Constitution in ONE area.
Grasp the concept of what I am saying ?
Pardon me, also, if I stridently disagree with your analysis of quote:"Government is always going to have a technological and organizational edge over its citizens. While there may be a few gun owners who would be"..
For I believe that is EXACTLY why we are not total servants of the Elites today ..they are not positive YET that they can win an all-out war with an aroused, infuriated citizenry..with the outmoded, limited weaponry we still have today.
There is where you make a mistake...IN MY OPINION ONLY !!
quote:I agree with you on an all out scale. I was referring more to their being able to deal with anything regional or even more localized.
You get Americans pissed off enough..and 'all out' is the ONLY way they know how to kick azs.
While Gun Rights would surely kick off the fuss, if they were banned, say...LOTS of people are ticked off about multitudes of things being pushed in this country.
Heard about 160 thousand parents in California ordered to send their children to the propaganda camps ? Just another nail in somebodies coffin...Somewhere, somehow, there would be the spark that will ignite the passions of REAL Americans...and the Second is just a part of it.
[:D][:D][:D]
quote:Originally posted by Hunter Mag
Well if you really don't mind I will. You asked.[:D]
Yeah Hunter but we all know you can do better than that. Please elaborate so I understand why I am an idiot (armed idiot [:p] that is)
I was trying to be nice, you don't know how hard that is.[:D]
Gun rights from God? LMAO!!!!
Show me in your Bible. One which day did God invent guns?
I thought the Chinese invented gunpowder.
Besides, there is no God. Or Tooth Fairy. Or Easter Bunny. Hell, there's not even a Santa Claus.
Interesting name you pick for yourself.
Using a pipsqueak round, you are forced to shoot repeatedly.generally missing the first dozen or so shots.
Much like what happens in what you call a `brain' .. really just a mass of protoplasm that quivers now and again to stimulus from without. Being a small, weak `organ' ..I use that term loosely, in your case.it is unable to form a coherent argument ..and must resort to all sorts of bluster and blow to distinguish itself.
Being imprinted with various and sundry liberal, secular humanist, socialist pathways, it is no wonder occasionally it will lash out at those with the capacity to actually think for themselves..
the Second Amendment is only the anvil I beat continually ..as the most important of the varied Rights we are accorded from God.
Gun rights from God? LMAO!!!!
Show me in your Bible. One which day did God invent guns?
I thought the Chinese invented gunpowder.
Besides, there is no God. Or Tooth Fairy. Or Easter Bunny. Hell, there's not even a Santa Claus.
For a person whom spends time critcizing the bible, and God given rights, YOU never spent a day reading the bible have you? OBVIOUSLY not. There are MANY instances where the people WERE armed. Even in the New testament, Jesus' follwers were armed.
Perhaps IF you read the bible and had ANY level of reading comprehension, you would then understand. Yet, I belive you can't meet that criteria.
If you DON'T want to believe in God OR Jesus, then thats all well and fine with me. HOWEVER, to understand where the FOUNDERS got the glorious idea of our rights and the sacred documents of this country, you MUST understand the bible as well.
Simple enough, you don't READ, therefore you don't UNDERSTAND.
If God had wanted you to fly, he'd have given you wings.
If he'd wanted you to have guns...LMAO!
Say...what did Jesus carry? I've heard Glock, but I don't believe it. God wouldn't have picked a furrin' gun, he'd have chosen American. What did God arm him with? 1911? Bazooka? LMAO!
God given rights? Guns? What's that, the Jehovah auto? The Yahweh pump? BBWWWHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
to understand where the FOUNDERS got the glorious idea of our rights and the sacred documents of this country, you MUST understand the bible as well.
Huh? What do Jefferson, Washington, Adams, Franklin have in common?
Hint: Not one Christian among them. They'd have, and did, wipe their arses with your Bible. LMFAO!!
Freemind -
If God had wanted you to fly, he'd have given you wings.
If he'd wanted you to have guns...LMAO!
Say...what did Jesus carry? I've heard Glock, but I don't believe it. God wouldn't have picked a furrin' gun, he'd have chosen American. What did God arm him with? 1911? Bazooka? LMAO!
God given rights? Guns? What's that, the Jehovah auto? The Yahweh pump? BBWWWHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
Read the bible you pinhead. They carried swords. That WAS as far as modern weaponry had advanced at the time. IF there had been modern weaponry that WE have availible, they would have carried that.
The premise of self defense/self preservtion is MORE than evident.
To say yet AGAIN "Simple enough, you don't READ, therefore you don't UNDERSTAND".
Take you useless tripe somewhere else. You obviously have nothing of substance to add here on this forum.
Really, freemind? How about you READ this -
"The Christian right is trying to rewrite the history of the United States as part of its campaign to force its religion on others. They try to depict the founding fathers as pious Christians who wanted the United States to be a Christian nation, with laws that favored Christians and Christianity.
This is patently untrue. The early presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the absurdities of the Old and New testaments.
Then this-
George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion.
Then this -
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -- Thomas Jefferson (letter to J. Adams April 11,1823)
Then this -
James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
Then this -
Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian."
Then this -
Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention, said:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian.
And this -
The words "In God We Trust" were not consistently on all U.S. currency until 1956, during the McCarthy Hysteria.
And this -
The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The treaty was written during the Washington administration, and sent to the Senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required by the Senate, but only the third time a vote was unanimous
And finally, try reading the US Constitution -
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
So, pinhead, Jeebus freak, how can you possibly claim, as you do -
HOWEVER, to understand where the FOUNDERS got the glorious idea of our rights and the sacred documents of this country, you MUST understand the bible as well.
They sure as Hell didn't get it from Christianity.
Go back to school and get your GED, ignorant person. Maybe then you'll be able to keep up with the conversation. For now, you're an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
*attribution, of course to the Wms. Faulkner & Shakespeare
I have one tiny thing bothering me, tho ..perhaps you will deign to enlighten me.
Where did the Bill of Rights come from;..In other words, what is the meaning of it ?
And does it place any limits on the government ?
Glad to be of help. Educating the ignorant is always useful.
I have one tiny thing bothering me, tho ..perhaps you will deign to enlighten me.
Where did the Bill of Rights come from;..In other words, what is the meaning of it ?
And does it place any limits on the government ?
You could always do a little research to learn what you should have been taught in grammar school - you know basic History and Government courses.
The Bill of Rights? It's limits on government are pretty plain, aren't they? They were instituted by the founders to prevent abuses of power which they had experienced. After all it is written in English. Questions sometimes still may arise - when that happens, the SCOTUS settles them.
Oh and as far as the bible peddlers, I just had gotten home from a 3 month mission, and had been awake for nearly 50 hours. I answered the door wearing boxer shorts, a sig p239, and a really grumpy expression...
I also did not live in the best of neighborhoods. It might be wrong to admit that my weapon did not get discharged because that would mean a longer intervention of my sleep by police....
Since man instituted the BOR..Man can change them..sorta at will. Hm ?
Each and every one of them is pretty important (the quartering of soldiers is a bit out of touch, but it was important at the time)... Those who are in power the career politicians will fiddle with our rights we have on paper because they can, but these rights have been cut a little deeper than what is in the parchment. We were born with these rights and only we can give them up, whether by ignorance, or fear ....
It is true, the constitution can be amended. Indeed that is where the BOR came from, they are the first ten amendments. Here's the procedure, right from 8th grade Civics class -
The Amendment Process
There are essentially two ways spelled out in the Constitution for how to propose an amendment. One has never been used.
The first method is for a bill to pass both houses of the legislature, by a two-thirds majority in each. Once the bill has passed both houses, it goes on to the states. This is the route taken by all current amendments. Because of some long outstanding amendments, such as the 27th, Congress will normally put a time limit (typically seven years) for the bill to be approved as an amendment (for example, see the 21st and 22nd).
The second method prescribed is for a Constitutional Convention to be called by two-thirds of the legislatures of the States, and for that Convention to propose one or more amendments. These amendments are then sent to the states to be approved by three-fourths of the legislatures or conventions. This route has never been taken, and there is discussion in political science circles about just how such a convention would be convened, and what kind of changes it would bring about.
Amendments can be made, and later repealed. Remember Prohibition?
Is there an adult education program near you?
What do you make of 20,000++++ Gun laws ?
I see guns as more of a hazardous material and should be trained how to use them correctly... Rather than banned
Oh BTW what would happen if we banned all guns tomarrow (including ammo)
economically over a million would be without jobs, and we would loose billions in tax dollars... how bout them apples?
I go away for a weekend to get my RSO certification and look what happens to my thread.
What do you make of 20,000++++ Gun laws ?
To tell the truth I don't know what to make of it. What do you make of exceptions to the 1st, amd especially the 4th, which Bush is violating 100,000 of thousands of times?
As far as the 2nd, that is now before the SCOTUS, and there should be an answer by about June. They have the question whether there can be exceptions to the 2nd or not. It's squarely on their plate.
Unfortuntely this SCOTUS has a history of ruling for big government and big business, and against individual rights.
Highball if you were a congressmen then "Shall not" would be "why not"
I see guns as more of a hazardous material and should be trained how to use them correctly... Rather than banned...
Ok. Who decides the criteria? Ted Kennedy? I could design a "training"/qualification program that NO ONE (who wasn't politically connected) could pass.
That's a big problem with many of the "May Issue" CCW States. There is no objective criteria. If you aren't connected, you don't pass.
Now, if you are going to try the old "Drivers License" ploy, well, I've got a treat for you - I published an article about that very thing back during the Clintoon administration which utterly shreds that argument... because it would GUARANTEE that I could carry my CCW in NYC/DC/Chicago - AND it would GUARANTEE that I could carry my gun WITHOUT A LICENSE pretty much anywhere else.
Think about it for a minute, and you will understand.
Almost. I'll admit that I will not vote for any republican. If Obama's the dem, I'll vote for him.
quote:As far as the 2nd, that is now before the SCOTUS, and there should be an answer by about June. They have the question whether there can be exceptions to the 2nd or not. It's squarely on their plate.
I tire of this...I take it back about you converting me. Didn't really happen, you see.
What is going to occur is if the Supremes come down on the side of 'No Personal Right' to own firearms is...on the day the government requires you to 'turn them in'...you will turn them in.
Force of law...for you there is no higher authority...and you and TR and Slumlord and the 4 million members of the NRA...and 90 % of gunowners WILL TURN THEM IN !!
I, on the other hand, recognize that there is INDEED a higher authority then government...I was given INALIENABLE Rights by that authority ..and I will resist until dead.
You are now free to go back to practicing your secular humanism on more gullible people.
Btw...the quotes you throw about with gay abandon can be countered by other quotes...all day long. You have proved nothing.
Then there is TR fFox ..who persists in his childlike attacks about how professing that there is a higher authority then government as being Taliban like.
Children ..some of them get to be 65 years old and never grow up.
See ..I will point to just ONE difference ..for the intellectually challenged.
We that espouse a return to the Constitution ..many if not most of us appear to be Christian (perhaps not so funny, that) DEMAND a strict accounting for personal behavior that crosses the line into harming other people.
Misuse a gun ..get slapped with SERIOUS consequences ..not the crapola administered today.
I have absolutely no desire to force anybody to do ANYTHING.save leave me and mine alone.
Most of YOU, on the other hand ..you anti-gunners ..delight in forcing an an entire population to do your bidding.
Why ? I expect because fear rides with you constantly ..ever moment of every day ..the fear that you cannot handle a situation. You desire the government to handle it.
That's the same story as Eliot Spitzer - claims God gave him the inalienable right to bang hookers. Can you prove him wrong? LMAO!
Get professional help. You've got some serious psychiatric issues. That nonstop paranoia reminds me of Obama's preacher.
Highball:
Get professional help. You've got some serious psychiatric issues. That nonstop paranoia reminds me of Obama's preacher.
Bull poop (and everyone knows what should be there) Highball is not paranoid. I have experienced first hand what can happen when a bunch of "do gooders" think they have the answer for the ills of society. So have the populations of Germany, Russia, China etc,...
Our rights come from a higher place than any government. They come from within. They come from the very human ability to judge between right and wrong and when it is not clear to wrestle with the decision. Christians call it providence. I am not sure what the proper agnostic term is but it is just as relevant with or without a deity getting involved.
Highball:
That's the same story as Eliot Spitzer - claims God gave him the inalienable right to bang hookers. Can you prove him wrong? LMAO!Doesn't matter what "god" gave him or not.
His WIFE didn't give him the right, and SHE is the one who he had the contract with.
He broke the contract with her, just as assuredly as Ken Lay of Enron did with his shareholders. In either case, it shows a pattern of "abuse of power" that should preclude him fom holding Office.
I'm a Libertarian. I don't care who bangs who. What I care about is hypocritical meanies who will arrest people for doing the same things they do.
Who bangs who and why is not a 2nd Amendment issue - except to the extent that the same meanies try to take MY RKBA away while ensuring THEY continue to have heavily armed guards.
If you want to talk "Psychiatric" issues, bring it on. I can show FAR more clearly that those who support Gun COntrol are psychiatricly unballanced than an absolutist Pro RKBA position is.
And FWIW, if you need a triple-tap of .223 to get your point across, you haven't been trained enough. [}:)]
I've got BIG problems with "mandatory".
Should you be trained in Gun Handling? Absolutely.
Should I force you (note the word FORCE) to be trained? Absolutely NOT.
The Government is Force. The Government should have NO say in "training" anything except their own troops.
Period.
And, FWIW, I carry in Chicago.
5 women died in Tinley park because they trusted their lives to Emperor Daley and 911.
I prefer trusting my life to ME... and 9mm. (ok... .357... [;)])
Punishment for stupidly flashing a gun around wantonly..someone shooting you.
An AD because you are stupid and fooling around with a gun in public place...prison term..and perhaps more.
The tv spends HOURS on homosexuality, who's screwing whom, and fat white guys with beautiful wives.
In an enlightened society, there would be some part of that time devoted to firearms training...and in and around EVERY TOWN in America would be public firing ranges...free for all to shoot..complete with an old Gunny willing to train anybody that comes along.
There is no possibility of EVER having a society like that as long as we gun owners are too ignorant to even conceive of it...is there ?
As long as the prevailing attitude is ..'God ..I am glad the government restricts firearms from this group...or that one", how can their possibly be advances made in the GENERAL population ?
Without educating GUN owners ..we have no chance at all with the totally clueless.
Unfortunately, Many if not most gun owners are `clueless'.witness this very forum, and the vitriolic attacks on those of us DARING to support the Constitution.
Takes no courage at all to attack a single man, standing alone. These people are scared snitless to actually point to the Beast and declare it hopelessly corrupt.