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30-30 vs 30 WCF
toad67
Member Posts: 13,019 ✭✭✭✭
What is the difference between the 2? Thanks.
Todd
Todd
Comments
W.D.
It's pretty common in older calibers to see many different names. Lotsa old gun makers apparently didn't want a rivals name on their guns, so Marlin would mark a gun .44-40, Winchester marked it a 44 WCF, etc...leads to mucho confusion.
(You still see it today; S&W calls the .357 Sig the .357 Auto in the M&P line.)
It's a neat old collectible you have in your hand.
It always drives me nuts to hear how "American Riflemen" did it all with guns that were much more suited to 200 yds. than current European arms of the time that would reach 2000 yds. (Win model '94 vs. Mauser 1892/1893/1894/1895...)
i always thought the 30-30 started as a smokeless round
What do you think the -30 stands for?
Edit:
To be clear, the round was definitely not developed as a smokeless cartridge. Same with the 30-40 Krag. You will find that amount of black powder quite coincidental with the size of each case. That second number denotes how much black powder the case will hold. The U.S. Army adopted the .30-40 Krag as smokeless in 1992. But, not before they had to do more trials to see if the powder would in fact perform. I doubt that within two years, civilians were getting their hands on such a huge military advancement in technology as smokeless powder. The same pretty much holds true for Europe. Unless you had connections, you didn't get smokeless powder.
Another point of note was in 1898, during the Spanish-American war, many Americans bemoaned how you could not see the Spanish shooting their Mausers, but they could always see the big puff of white smoke our rifles (including Teddy Roosevelts vaunted 30-40 Carbines) put out.
.30-40 was for 40 grains of smokeless powder... and came out 3 years before the .30-30 as America's first small bore smokeless powder cartridge.
What the Mausers had over the Krags in spades were better powders, a rimless case, higher pressures, higher-velocity with lighter-weight 173 grain spitzer bullets over the rimmed Krags' medium pressures, and slow, heavy, 220 grain round nosed bullets.
Cartridges of the world states that the .30-30 was Americas first small-bore smokeless-powder sporting cartridge, first marketed in 1895. The extra "30" was for 30 grains of smokeless powder: "The orginal loading used a 160 grain softpoint bullet and 30 grains of smokeless powder." It does state that .30-30 was "an older way of describing a caliber based on black powder."
.30-40 was for 40 grains of smokeless powder... and came out 3 years before the .30-30 as America's first small bore smokeless powder cartridge.
What the Mausers had over the Krags in spades were better powders, a rimless case, higher pressures, higher-velocity with lighter-weight 173 grain spitzer bullets over the rimmed Krags' medium pressures, and slow, heavy, 220 grain round nosed bullets.
And how do you think those "higher pressures" were attained. If you are hearing that the American powder of the 1890's was smokeless, you too are drinking the Kool-aid[8D]. Maybe in the propaganda world, but it sure wasn't 'smokeless'. Certainly not near as smokeless as real smokeless powders. Call it what you want, but it was NOT smokeless.
That said there was only one cartridge used in the Spanish-American war by us that really was smokeless, and that is the 1895 6mm Lee/.236 Navy. It used a new (real) smokeless powder called rifleite. A close derivative of cordite. It was supplied by a British company who actually was making 'smokeless' powder. Unfortunately, many people who have their minds made up before they are forced to look at results made the decision that this rifle should go away. And it did. Fortunately for us, so did the .30-40 Krag. And the .30-30 never got adopted as some had hoped. There was never much impetus behind that anyway.
Sorry to disagree with you on this, but I'm going to have to go with Mr. Barnes' descriptions of the .30-30 and .30-40 as America's first "smokeless powder" military round (1893 for .30-40) and sporting (1895 for .30-30). If he had been wrong about it when he first wrote it in 1965's first edition of Cartridges of the World, somebody would have proven him wrong and changed it over the last 12 editions published.
It wasn't "black powder" in the .30-30 or .30-40, period. America's version of smokeless powder certainly was not as good or clean as "smokeless" European stuff was, heck, they had about a 10 year head start on it. (A Frenchman invented it as we pretty much know it today in 1884. British Rifleite came about in 1893 or so, improvement led to Cordite in 1889.) But the numbers used in the .30-30 and .30-40 was not ever meant to designate a charge of black powder as loaded in other American rounds such as the .45-70, ..38-40, .44-77 Remington, etc. These were true black powder rounds.
Sorry to disagree with you on this, but I'm going to have to go with Mr. Barnes' descriptions of the .30-30 and .30-40 as America's first "smokeless powder" military round (1893 for .30-40) and sporting (1895 for .30-30). If he had been wrong about it when he first wrote it in 1965's first edition of Cartridges of the World, somebody would have proven him wrong and changed it over the last 12 editions published.
Sorry to disagree with you, but I'll have to go with the first 'smokeless' powder, small bore round as being the .303 Savage. (1893, read the patent stamped right on the rifles barrels {hint: look for hi-pressure steel}) So, it's {edit: 30-30} certainly not the 'first' and it's certainly not the best. As with a lot of things that sell well it only had the 'best' marketing.
The best way to make a million dollars in America is make something you'll make a dollar each on, ...and sell a million of them. There's your Winchester 1894.
The Savage 1895 ultimately became the sporting 1899 model. The hammerless action, rotary magazine etc. that became the 1895 was first patented by Arthur Savage in 1893. Savage arms was founded in 1894.
The .303 Savage had a bit more oomph than the .30-30, and the 1895/99 rifle did allow for pointed bullets. As a past owner of a 99F in .308, the action is much stronger, too. As we all know. the 99 didn't supplant the Marlins and Winchesters and died a slow, but undeserved, death.
We're splitting hairs here, but the (1894) .30-30 was strictly a sporting cartridge, the (1894) .303 Savage and (1892) .30-40 Krag were military trials smokeless powder cartridges that was then offered to the sporting world. In any event (and getting back on topic), the 30 WCF and .30-30 were the same thing with a different name.
Agreed, getting back to the original subject, .30-30 and .30 WCF are one and the same.
The .32 Win Spl came out in the 1894 rifle in 1901 thereabouts, and with the slower twist and slightly larger bore the thinking was for the blackpowder and/or cast bullet reloader. As we all know it's not really that much different than the 170 gr loading in the .30-30..other than in retail price and ammo availablity.. which means the .32 Spl will harvest your deer, hog, or black bear pretty darn well within it's range. [:)]