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barrel leading continued

nemesisenforcernemesisenforcer Member Posts: 10,513 ✭✭✭
gas checked the 357 bullets and that seemed to have solved most of the issue. There's still some, especially when they get a little quick or I shoot a couple dozen in a row, but it's much easier to clean out now.

As for the 45, if I keep the loads VERY mild (500 fps) there's no problem. As soon as I get into the 700 fps range, the lead starts stripping off pretty intensely. The good news is, it gets knocked loose easily with some jacketed bullets and scrubs out nicely with a brush and copper scrub pads.

The bullets have all been lubed, sized (.452), and lubed again. I shoot a Taurus 1911 and SIG 220. I'm using VN-330 powder.

Any suggestions?

Comments

  • 62fuelie62fuelie Member Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You may want to try a harder alloy. If things are clean at 500 fps, but lead forms at 700 something is to blame and a soft alloy is usually the first suspect. I used 700X for my 1911 and BDA-45 (early version of the P-220) with the 200 grain cone nose from Berry's back when they made unplated bullets. The alloy was fairly hard and I had no leading problems.
  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,669 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You should be able to drive a 45 ACP to maximum pressure velocities and see ZERO leading for hundreds if not thousands of rounds.

    I shoot at least 500 and probably closer to 750 rounds of "snappy" target loads between cleaning, I have never seen any lead in my 1911 match pistol.

    I would:
    (1) slug your bore to get the ACTUAL grove diameter.
    (2) Try some OLD wheel weights, if you lead with them, you have size issues.
    (3) make sure your lube is a good one, Alox Beeswax.

    Leading is caused by several factors, size being the most important followed by lube then alloy. Speeds up to 2,000 FPS are possible when paying close attention to proper sizing and lube.
  • nemesisenforcernemesisenforcer Member Posts: 10,513 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by bpost
    You should be able to drive a 45 ACP to maximum pressure velocities and see ZERO leading for hundreds if not thousands of rounds.

    I shoot at least 500 and probably closer to 750 rounds of "snappy" target loads between cleaning, I have never seen any lead in my 1911 match pistol.

    I would:
    (1) slug your bore to get the ACTUAL grove diameter.
    (2) Try some OLD wheel weights, if you lead with them, you have size issues.
    (3) make sure your lube is a good one, Alox Beeswax.

    Leading is caused by several factors, size being the most important followed by lube then alloy. Speeds up to 2,000 FPS are possible when paying close attention to proper sizing and lube.


    Don't have access to old wheel weights so no luck there.

    For lube, I'm using Lee's Alox which I've heard is good, but I'm not an expert, obviously.

    I'm sizing at .452, wonder if I should go to .453?
  • nemesisenforcernemesisenforcer Member Posts: 10,513 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by bpost
    You should be able to drive a 45 ACP to maximum pressure velocities and see ZERO leading for hundreds if not thousands of rounds.

    I shoot at least 500 and probably closer to 750 rounds of "snappy" target loads between cleaning, I have never seen any lead in my 1911 match pistol.

    I would:
    (1) slug your bore to get the ACTUAL grove diameter.
    (2) Try some OLD wheel weights, if you lead with them, you have size issues.
    (3) make sure your lube is a good one, Alox Beeswax.

    Leading is caused by several factors, size being the most important followed by lube then alloy. Speeds up to 2,000 FPS are possible when paying close attention to proper sizing and lube.


    could the powder be the culprit? Producing too much pressure or heat and cutting the bullets?
  • charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,572 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think you can get tin and antimony or wheel weight lead off e-bay. Maybe the lube is the problem (I have never used liquid alox), .453 might do the trick. I feed my 45acp with bullseye, 231 or unique. The more you shoot the guns the smoother the bbl gets and will lead up less. Copper jacketed bullets will break your bbl's in faster. Have you tried other cast bullets from like Laser Cast?
    http://www.midwayusa.com/product/610196/oregon-trail-laser-cast-bullets-45-caliber-452-diameter-230-grain-lead-round-nose-box-of-500
  • nemesisenforcernemesisenforcer Member Posts: 10,513 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by charliemeyer007
    I think you can get tin and antimony or wheel weight lead off e-bay. Maybe the lube is the problem (I have never used liquid alox), .453 might do the trick. I feed my 45acp with bullseye, 231 or unique. The more you shoot the guns the smoother the bbl gets and will lead up less. Copper jacketed bullets will break your bbl's in faster. Have you tried other cast bullets from like Laser Cast?
    http://www.midwayusa.com/product/610196/oregon-trail-laser-cast-bullets-45-caliber-452-diameter-230-grain-lead-round-nose-box-of-500


    The barrels should be broken in by now as I've been shooting jacketed bullets for years and just recently started using lead bullets.

    I've used commercial lead bullets before and never had a problem but the whole reason for casting my own is to save as much money as possible.
  • charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,572 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ok. Then harder lead, different lube or bullet profile, increased size and lastly powder/primer are the order I work with to try for no leading. +1 for cheaper bullets or I'd be shooting about 90% less than I do now.
  • nemesisenforcernemesisenforcer Member Posts: 10,513 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by charliemeyer007
    Ok. Then harder lead, different lube or bullet profile, increased size and lastly powder/primer are the order I work with to try for no leading. +1 for cheaper bullets or I'd be shooting about 90% less than I do now.


    I've tried shooting them as is, with no sizing, and both calibers still fouled the barrels.

    am I using too much lube? Not enough? I've heard the Lee Alox is top notch.
  • nemesisenforcernemesisenforcer Member Posts: 10,513 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ok, so for the 45, I lubed up some bullets and ran them through the 1911 without sizing them since they chambered just fine; same issue.

    So, I don't think it's sizing unless it is and I'm stupid.

    I'm using wheel weight lead and every place I've looked said that should be hard enough for most purposes short of full magnum loads.

    Am I missing something?[?]
  • charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,572 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    My first choice for lube is 50%beeswax50%alox applied in a lyman 45 sizerluber. Midway doesn't list a .453 but has a .454 for the old 45Colt. I'm thinking that all thoses little points in a tumble lube design might be the problem. As lead cools the antimony crystalizes out first. The bullets feel harder to the touch but the lead holding those crystals is softer. This why you need tin in the alloy if you have antimony. Older Lyman casting books have a good explaination. Wheel weights have lots of antimony and would make better bullets with the addition of tin. Old type set metal linotype makes good hard bullets that respond to dropping the bullet from the mold into water.
  • nemesisenforcernemesisenforcer Member Posts: 10,513 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by charliemeyer007
    My first choice for lube is 50%beeswax50%alox applied in a lyman 45 sizerluber. Midway doesn't list a .453 but has a .454 for the old 45Colt. I'm thinking that all thoses little points in a tumble lube design might be the problem. As lead cools the antimony crystalizes out first. The bullets feel harder to the touch but the lead holding those crystals is softer. This why you need tin in the alloy if you have antimony. Older Lyman casting books have a good explaination. Wheel weights have lots of antimony and would make better bullets with the addition of tin. Old type set metal linotype makes good hard bullets that respond to dropping the bullet from the mold into water.


    I dropped the 357s into water after casting but just let the 45s cool normally. The 357s seem to lead less, but this could be due to a number of factors, obviously.

    I'll look into getting some tin, but I've already cast hundreds of bullets and don't really want to melt them down and start over.
  • charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,572 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thinking about your problem; do you flux and stir your alloy a lot while casting. I have a bottom drop electric pot but do not use very often as I can't seem to retrain myself to flux and stir often. I use a lyman pot and dipper. The stirring is every ladle full and I flux with beeswax when I see scum floating.
  • rongrong Member Posts: 8,459
    edited November -1
    I use Oregon trail Laser cast bullets
    in all my handguns cept for the Glocks,
    and as long as I keep under 1000 fps
    leading doesn't seem to be an issue.
    Of course,I've never tried to push
    this self imposed limit, it's a "left over"
    from the days when I could buy good cast
    bullets from Northeastern.
  • nemesisenforcernemesisenforcer Member Posts: 10,513 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by charliemeyer007
    Thinking about your problem; do you flux and stir your alloy a lot while casting. I have a bottom drop electric pot but do not use very often as I can't seem to retrain myself to flux and stir often. I use a lyman pot and dipper. The stirring is every ladle full and I flux with beeswax when I see scum floating.


    I stir and flux what I think is fairly regularly, but how often should I do it? I do it whenever I add more weights and a few times in between. Is that enough?
  • charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,572 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I stir at every 4 bullets ie a ladle full to fill my 4 cavity lyman. Flux maybe every 10 minutes, not really sure I never timed it, I just look at the surface of the alloy. Tin will float to the top like cream, but looks dull gray and wrinkley. Flux puts it back in the alloy.

    Maybe you should try a different lube.
    http://www.midwayusa.com/product/785628/lyman-alox-bullet-lube-stick-hollow

    For testing you could rub the lube onto the bullets then size. Real PITA but costs nothing and unused lube is flux. You could make a Kakecutter and cut them out of a pan of lube see an old lyman book.
  • nemesisenforcernemesisenforcer Member Posts: 10,513 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm thinking the Lee Alox is the problem because I'm reasonably confident that I'm not screwing anything else bad enough to cause the leading.
  • charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,572 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This is the mold I use. Very reliable feeder, only leaded new bbl's.
    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=288049548
    Must be 150,000+ threw around 12 1911's, maybe alot more, got tired of looking for the brass. Wheel guns eject it into the brass bucket.
  • nemesisenforcernemesisenforcer Member Posts: 10,513 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by charliemeyer007
    This is the mold I use. Very reliable feeder, only leaded new bbl's.
    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=288049548
    Must be 150,000+ threw around 12 1911's, maybe alot more, got tired of looking for the brass. Wheel guns eject it into the brass bucket.


    I'd really prefer to not have to buy new molds, especially ones that cost over double what I paid for my current ones.
  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,669 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    nemesisenforcer; I am sorry this problem is cropping up for you.

    Please email me your address and I will mail you some bullets I cast from wheel-weights. One is a Lee mold, NOT TUMBLE LUBE, and the other is a flat based copy of the old H&G 68 made by a guy in Serbia for cast-boolit members.

    You can test shoot them and see if they leave lead in your bore.

    I have shot both of these bullets with 10.2 grains of blue-dot with no issues and routinely shoot them with 6.0 of Unique, my favorite plinking load, neither load leads in my 1911 or cut rifleing Glock 21.
  • charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,572 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You the man bpost. I would have offered but last year on my deathbed I gave my 45acp stuff to a neighbor. He wants to give the stuff back and just have me load for him, not sure thats a good deal but then he doesn't shoot alot.
  • DBMJR1DBMJR1 Member Posts: 1,854 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm curious about your difficulties. I use a Lee six cavity aluminum Tumble lube mold in .38/.357 loads. I can push my bullets to 1050 before I start to see any leading in my Black Hawk. My Dan Wesson 6" barrels leads at slower speeds with the same bullets.

    This is soft lead. From roof jacks.

    I do water drop them, but you have to be careful, cause water dropping can cause a pure lead bullet to shrink, negating any benefit by causing a loose fit in the bore.

    You can buy pewter trinkets at thrift shops. Picture frames, mugs, statues . . .

    Pewter's mostly tin. It helps to fill out the mold more evenly and can help with shrinking. A 1:20 ratio is probably plenty.

    I push my .38's at ~690fps over my chrono. Fast enough to knock down the plates. I have zero problems with any lead in any pistols at these speeds.

    I'm using hp-38 in .38's and AA9 in .357's
  • nemesisenforcernemesisenforcer Member Posts: 10,513 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm hoping the issue is something that I'm doing re: the bullets and not the powder, as I have pounds of the stuff I'm using (VN-330) and am loathe to not use it.
  • charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,572 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I don't think it is you. I don't think it is the powder. Perhaps the lube or bullet design. I would take bpost up on his offer, and try hand lubeing some of your. I have remelted lots of bullets to change alloy, better than throwing them downrange with poor results. Oh and big plus for sticking with a program to solve problems rather than quitting.
  • nemesisenforcernemesisenforcer Member Posts: 10,513 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by charliemeyer007
    I don't think it is you. I don't think it is the powder. Perhaps the lube or bullet design. I would take bpost up on his offer, and try hand lubeing some of your. I have remelted lots of bullets to change alloy, better than throwing them downrange with poor results. Oh and big plus for sticking with a program to solve problems rather than quitting.


    I'm not sure I'm going to stick with it, though. I've already spent a lot of money and I'm considering cutting my losses and just going back to commercial bullets for reloading. Man's got to know his limitations and this is looking like one of mine. I've already got enough things in my life that I'm stupid or suck at and I don't need another one.
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