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Which lubri sizer to buy?
aap2
Member Posts: 203 ✭✭✭
I'm starting to cast lead bullets for most of my guns now that I am retired. A lot of my bullets are rifle bullets so the quantities are not as high as handgun bullets; I have always pan lubed with a home made kake cutter but it's time to buy a lubri sizer. A new Saeco, RCBS or Lyman is within my budget; any opinion on which one is best? I like the Star, but my volume may not justify the expense. I have read review that the new RCBS is poorly made and that the Saeco leaks if the lube is heated; I'm not sure if these are valid concerns. Are the older units of these 3 brands any better? Thanks.
Comments
I use just straight 5050 Alox/beeswax no heat required and maybe some of my own mix. I don't think those heated lubes are all that good, but the look nice and aren't as sticky.
Straight through. The dies them self have 2 or 3 rings of holes and are tapered you can fill up one or two rings with #8 bird shot this way you can match the lube to a bullet with one / two / or three grease grooves. You should be able to lube 60 a minute. I have lubed and sized over 300,000 rounds of semi wadcutter 45ACP bullets with mine.
The pass through style is by far faster and better and you don't have an ejector to adjust for each bullet length.
If I HAD to size, and I can't imagine that nightmare, I would get a Star or the Lee sizing equipment. Lubri-sizers simply do not improve the accuracy of the bullets and will, if you aren't careful, really destroy the accuracy of the bullets.
I adjust bullet diameter by playing with alloy composition. So far, I have not had a single mold that was so far out of dimension that I couldn't fire the as-cast bullet and, if I did, sizing that oversize bullet is NOT the path to accuracy.
Maybe the "science" has changed, but back then, any sizing more than 0.003" down would destroy the accuracy of bullet and any sizing down, other then just "kissing" the bearing surface to lube would increase groups at 25yds by at least 0.5".
YMMV, but that is how things were...
Before anyone comments about shooting lead out of a Glock save your breath, I have shot over 25k of lead through my G34 with no leading. The bullets are hard and lubed. My friend shoots lead out of his HK too with no problems. Soft lead can give you problems in any caliber, if the bullets are too small diameter, too much pressure, too little pressure, or if the bullets are not lubed you can have [very] bad things happen.
Oh, and 231/hp38 is the powder for me, I love the results I have been getting. I have have bad results with fast powders as many others I shoot with have also. The powders of choice among my fellow lead shooters are: Unique, 231, greendot, and one old rich guy with lots of money used N340 at $100 per four pounds with his Major .40 loads.
If you are key-holing with a Glock you are under stabilizing the bullets in the polygonal rifling and losing accuracy. Lead bullets simply can no be formed to follow the twist without skipping or deforming. Put a cut rifling barrel in and see the difference.
I do not worry as much about hardness as I do the PROPER lube and even more important the proper SIZE for the barrel.
I have a old Lachmiller sizer, it became the RCBS IIRC, I have sized well over 200,000 bullets with it, it still works great. All of them different brands work just fine, the key is getting bulk Alox and Beeswax to make your own lube economically.
"I drive cast bullets up to 2,000 FPS with out issues in both a 30-06 and 8MM Mauser."
Is that with a gas check? Just curious. I use gas checks when I push my 44 mag loads above 1200fps or I get lots of leading.
My point and experience is that soft lead [or even hard lead] with fast powders and enough power to cycle the gun gives me erratic results. I do shoot out of a glock but also with my M&P 9, I have shot my Beretta 92 with red dot and it was more like a shotgun pattern when it hit the paper. Not all of these pistols are polygonal, I do admit that these are bullets I bought and they came sized and lubed from the manufacturer. And they did not lead up the barrel in any of the guns, just that they were terribly inaccurate.
I've heard many a story with .38special that the sweetest load is a hollow base 147gr wadcutter with 2.8gr of bullseye. Maybe correct lubing is the answer.
My molds are going to arrive Thursday, I'll make some bullets and lube them with LLA and I'll see what happens. Lubing is the biggest question mark in my mind right now. I've been shooting and reloading for over twenty years but this is my first casting attempt. I'm going to start with 200gr round nose .45 bullets which seem to be more forgiving because of the lower pressure and speed.
I'll probably be back with some questions of my own.
I think you will find that bullseye shooting is the most critical type of pistol competition. At 50 yards the gun should shoot under 1-1/2 inch ten shot groups.
Perry shooter is a top ranked bullseye shooter and may correct me but I can not think of a single bullseye shooter using powders on the slow side. Bullseye powder, (AKA flammable dirt) is still one of the top powders used in the 45ACP. I use 4.4 grains of N-310 driving a 200 grain SWC at 830-850 FPS. It is very accurate at 50 yards, is a FAST powder and is not a wimp load.
Welcome to casting, the process if learning to cast is a blast, the satisfying results are even better!!!!
This site is the Mecca of casting bullets.
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/
Hello Nord All of us are open to others testing and posting their results. The one thing I request from anyone is to only change one thing at a time when testing. I found out years ago a repeatable bench mark with known loads will go along way towards good Data I have both a known lot started out with 2000 rounds of match 230 grain Ball ammo and also 3000 rounds of Match 185 grain 45ACP semi wadcutter . I use this to check my pistols and also to compare my loads in the same pistol I use a Ransom rest at 50 yards in my opinion this is the ONLY TRUE way to test. I am looking forward to seeing your results Karl AKA Perry Shooter
Tonight I just returned from a falling plate match and of course one of the main topics we talk about is reloading/powders/bullets,,,,and of course right now some politics. One of the guys is a Grandmaster ICORE shooter who casts and lubes lots of his bullets. He is not afraid to experiment and has used everything from axel grease to peanut butter [not chunky] to lube his casts. When I talked to him about my theory and results he said that the area of the pressure and rate of burn is something he is always discussing with others. He shoots a 627 8 shot and uses jacketed bullets to make major. The powder he uses is titegroup. But for his .45 loads he shoots cast lead and also uses titegroup. I asked him about pressure vs. diameter or area of the base of the bullet. We threw around some ideas/theories and then someone started talking about making major with 9mm jacketed loads in open class and that was that. Subject changed.
So I am going to continue reading but I do want to emphasise my own results with 9mm,,,that fast powders give me problems with lead,and slow powders seem to give a 'softer' push to the bullet. In fact tonight they were tack drivers as I finished fourth.
A friend and I are going to the range to experiment with different loads and different powders with the same bullets with pad and paper in hand. I am sure I will be reading more of your posts and making a few comments and letting you know my own results.
I have a four-pound jug and like it.
It is a really fast powder, using charge weights close to Bullseye or Red Dot but burning much, much, much, MUCH cleaner.
At cast boolits there is a whole forum dedicated to bullet lubes; Since ALOX 2138F is no longer made its substitute has been the subject of much discussion. I have about 10 pounds of 50-50 Alox-beeswax left, when it is gone I will need to find a substitute.
Congrats on your finish!!
I find this very interesting. I'm new to casting, the molds have not arrived yet and lubing the bullets is one of the biggest unknowns for me right now. I shoot in pistol competitions and mostly I shoot 9s, I have been shooting lead for five years now out of my Glock and now my M&P 9. I agree that loading lead 9mm is more complex than other larger calibers and I have also found that if they are pushed too hard you get erratic results [keyholing]. The lead bullets I have been buying are truncated 125gr hardcast from Missouri bullet. Reading all this info on lubing and now looking at the Magma onine [total setup $1k] is not for me, looks like I will be tumbling mine in LLA mixed with beeswax. Do any of you have a hardness tester? The hardness of the alloy is almost as important as anything else especially with 9mm and .40 which operate at higher pressures than .45/38.
Before anyone comments about shooting lead out of a Glock save your breath, I have shot over 25k of lead through my G34 with no leading. The bullets are hard and lubed. My friend shoots lead out of his HK too with no problems. Soft lead can give you problems in any caliber, if the bullets are too small diameter, too much pressure, too little pressure, or if the bullets are not lubed you can have [very] bad things happen.
Oh, and 231/hp38 is the powder for me, I love the results I have been getting. I have have bad results with fast powders as many others I shoot with have also. The powders of choice among my fellow lead shooters are: Unique, 231, greendot, and one old rich guy with lots of money used N340 at $100 per four pounds with his Major .40 loads.
I think you mean SLOWER powders, don't you [?]
They don't come much faster than 231/HP38
They don't come much faster than 231/HP38"
DC, I did mean slow. Titegroup [which I have never tried] bullseye, reddot, and promo, which I have been using are faster than 231.
I should clarify that all my issues/problems have been with 9mm lead bullets. I shoot both lead .40 and .45 with all of these faster powders with no problems and fine accuracy, 9 is my 'head scratcher'.
Titegroup is the powder of choice among most of the real competitive shooters I compete with,,,,but all that shoot 9 or .38 use jacketed bullets. Not one of them use lead. The guys [and Gals] shooting .45 on the other hand go to titegroup and lead like a duck goes to water and they have great results. One very good shooter told me his load was a 200gr wadcutter with 5.1 grains of titegroup which gave him a powder factor of over 180 which will allow him to qualify in any cold weather condition.
I know this has nothing to do with lubing although that subject did come up. A couple people use the Lyman luber and one has the Star luber [which he loves] But one of the best shooters there uses Lee dies [the same ones I bought] and tumble lubes the bullets with alox and beeswax, he does not even size them and he gets outstanding accuracy. I am hoping for good results when I start casting and already am making plans to spend some time with these people learning the little fine points that can make all the difference.
Then I went to 452AA with the 200 SWC.
I couldn't get good groups with a lead bullet in my 9mm,s. Found a 124/125JRN shot best using PB.
When I was shooting a 45, the best groups I ever got was with 800X.
Then I went to 452AA with the 200 SWC.
I couldn't get good groups with a lead bullet in my 9mm,s. Found a 124/125JRN shot best using PB.
I have not used 800x yet. My goal is to load with the same powder for everything I compete with.
I was given a pound of some older IMR PB and tried it in my 9mm loads, it worked well and I was suprised how dense it is [very fine grain]. I prefer to fill up the case more.
I had an old pound of 452 and its what made me give 231 a try as I read that 231 replaced it when 452AA stopped production. I had very good results with it and have started using it since. Worked up a good load with .40 and will soon work on a .45 when I start casting.
I still have quite a bit of Promo left too. Its a shotgun powder with the speed and almost exact speed of Reddot. Anyone else try this powder?
Do you know of anyone who does not resize their bullets after casting? Are they close enough out of the mold?
What do any of you think about tumble lubing with Lee Liquid Alox?
This is going to be interesting and I look forward to it.
Posted - 10/10/2012 : 6:10:56 PM
I still think you are approaching the 9MM accuracy issue from a dubious starting point. If you drop a CUT rifling barrel into the 9MM me thinks you will see and amazing increase in accuracy with lead bullets no matter what powder is used......
Well that may be true although I shoot quite a few different 9mm pistols. My Browning Hi-Power keyholed the worst and the glock gave me the best groups. It would be strange that out of ten rounds, five would be at point of aim with a few fliers and one or two almost off the paper at 25 feet. Since I have been using 231 all of them make a 2 inch ragged hole in the middle. I was nailing the plates at 25 yards last night too and it works with my Glock 34, m&p9, and my Six 228. I have not tested them with my Beretta, Star, or Browning Hi-power yet! I know the Glock does not have a cut barrel, don't know what kind the others have although the rifling is different and has lands and grooves. Just what is a "cut" barrel? I know quite a bit but if I knew everything I would not be posting here.
any time you get KEY HOLE it is most times caused by too small of a bullet not giving the bullet proper rate of spin . I have one Colt Lighting rifle Will not hold 24X24 inch paper at 25 yards with any 32-20 ammo available reloading supplied bullets will fall through the .317 diameter BORE. Used 32 S&W hollow base wadcutter bullets and WALA sub one inch groups at 25 yards. I personally never liked dipped lubed Bullets . none ever worked for me as to group size.
The standard barrel can also be made by hammer forging or by pulling a carbide broach through the hole ironing the rifling shape into the steel. They too will have something for the lead bullet to grab and impart spin. The polygonal rifling works with the relatively hard jacketed bullets forming them to the bore, making them spin but reducing friction as it does so. The theory is to increase MV and decrease copper fouling.
When shooting lead through polygonal rifling there is not enough hardness, even with the hardest cast bullet, to come close to a jacket. The bullet may spin some but will invariably as fouling builds up start to skip, it will be inconsistent. When it skips it is not getting spun, accuracy will suffer and key-holing is a great indicator of an unstable bullet. Another indicator is accuracy sucks.
A standard rifling pistol that shoots jacketed bullets well but sprays cast bullets is most likely suffering from bullets too small in diameter. The general rule of thumb is AFTER you slug your bore to determine its diameter you add .001 and size your cast bullets to that diameter.
The Glock barrel is designed for jacketed bullets period. I saw a huge accuracy issue with my G-21 with lead bullets until I learned why. I purchased a Match grade cut rifling barrel and the gun will come close to some 1911 bullseye pistols in accuracy at 50 yards.
The biggest issue with a Glock 21 for bullseye competition is the crap trigger and a grip size more proportioned to a gorilla, or a guy using two hands to hold the dang thing.
The first bullets I am going to cast are 200gr .45 to be shot out of my Kimber or Gold Cup. I have an experienced friend/fellow shooter who will help walk me through the finer points and with a little luck things will work out. I don't load alot of 45 simply because of the cost of the bullets, I can load 9 for about half. I get lead for free so casting my actually save me some money. [I hope] At least make it as cheap to load as 9s.