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First reloaded .45LCs were a fail

JackBwrJackBwr Member Posts: 1,756 ✭✭✭
Just took my Ruger blackhawk .45LC out to see how my reloads would shoot. They're actually new loads. Was using new brass. I thought I had the bullets crimped well but I guess not. Maybe I didn't seat them low enough?

I fired the first one and it sent all the bullets forward, in the cylinder. They were still in the cases but they came forward. I know the crimp is working because I accidentally sent an empty case up into it and when I tried setting a new bullet into it, it was tight. With a normal casing, they would slide right in.

Also, the powder wasn't burning off. I suspect because the bullets came out too easily? There was probably 0.1, maybe 0.2 of a grain left in every casing, unburned powder in the cylinder and in the barrel. Using 5 year old IMR4227. 24 grains each. Every one weighed individually. With this powder, it leaves almost no air space in the casing.

I fired 6 shells and quit. The last one, the case got blown backwards against the back of the gun. Quite a bit of kick to them. Should I just seat the bullets deeper? I must not have had the groove down past the crimp.

Comments

  • reloader44magreloader44mag Member Posts: 18,783 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    What grain/type bullet were you using?
  • bambambambambambam Member Posts: 4,814 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Did your bullets have crimp rings?
  • JackBwrJackBwr Member Posts: 1,756 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Theyre 250 grain .452 Hornady HP-XTPs and they do have crimp rings. Ill try to get some pics.
  • reloader44magreloader44mag Member Posts: 18,783 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by JackBwr
    Theyre 250 grain .452 Hornady HP-XTPs and they do have crimp rings. Ill try to get some pics.
    Where did you find the load data calling for 24.0gr IMR4227?...that seems WAY too hot for that grain bullet
  • Riomouse911Riomouse911 Member Posts: 3,492 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is John Taffin's loads with a 255 gr lead and 4227:

    18.0 gr. H4227 938 fps

    19.0 gr. H4227 994 fps

    20.0 gr. H4227 1029 fps



    I prefer 9.0 of Unique with the 255 gr LFP, right about 960 FPS.


    Oh yeah, these heavy bullets need a GOOD crimp, or they'll all slide forward and tie up the revolver.
  • JackBwrJackBwr Member Posts: 1,756 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by reloader44mag
    quote:Originally posted by JackBwr
    Theyre 250 grain .452 Hornady HP-XTPs and they do have crimp rings. Ill try to get some pics.
    Where did you find the load data calling for 24.0gr IMR4227?...that seems WAY too hot for that grain bullet


    Nosler Reloading book 5th edition. Its the old IMR4227 from 5 years ago. Not the new formula since Hodgon took them over. It's supposed to be 89% load density at 24 grains. Maximum load is 25 grains. This is for 250 JHPs.

    Here's the bullets I'm using:

    2012-09-22_15-35-14_939_zps312385aa.jpg


    Heres a pic of the shells. The lower one is a completed one that I thought was good to go. The upper one shows how far the bullet slid out on all of them in the cylinder after one shot.

    2012-09-22_15-38-48_130_zps3be56093.jpg

    Here's a bullet laying next to the case showing how deep they're currently seated. On the middle case, you can see the crimp line just back from the front edge, roughly right in the middle of the ring on the bullet.

    2012-09-22_15-39-34_416_zps378d8315.jpg

    I don't know if it's doing a taper crimp or a roll crimp. I don't really understand the difference. I followed the directions with lowering the die after it was set and backing the bullet seating plug back up. I'm using a RCBS single stage with RCBS carbide dies.

    They fire but they're obviously too loose.
  • reloader44magreloader44mag Member Posts: 18,783 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think you need to seat the bullet to the center of the canalure/crimp ring..with a heavy roll crimp...your OAL should be OK with this method...my 2 cents
  • charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,579 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It looks more of a taper crimp to me, ask RCBS what your dies are suppost to produce. You should be able to get the bullets to hold with more adjustment.

    Their less than steller websight has a roll crimp die, the carbide 3 die set doesn't say what the seater die is.

    https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/MainServlet?storeId=webconnect&catalogId=webconnect&langId=en_US&action=ProductDisplay&screenlabel=index&productId=4296&route=C09J043N023

    http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/crimp.cfm
  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Heavy crimp with heavy loads.
    Winchester primers are used for both magnum and standard loads.
    They may give you more complete combustion.
    It looks like you're starting out with max loads.
    .45LC brass being very thin, may not give you enough restraining force
    to resist recoil with jacketed bullets. Greater bullet pull might be in using gas checked lead bullets with deep crimp grooves to bite into.
    In the past, upon some gunwriter's recommendation, I used magnum primers in all revolver loads to address the unburnt powder issue.
    Currently it's a big no-no.
  • dg101windg101win Member Posts: 751 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Two things I noticed in your post. You used new brass and a bullet would slip right in.

    Did you first run the new brass through the sizing die then did you flare the case mouth prior to seating the bullets? If not then probably not enough neck tension to help hold the bullet.
    This along with a weak crimp would allow the bullets to move forward upon firing the first round.

    I agree seat the bullets out just a tad bit more to allow more of the crimp to be in the crimp groove.
  • JackBwrJackBwr Member Posts: 1,756 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by dg101win
    Two things I noticed in your post. You used new brass and a bullet would slip right in.

    Did you first run the new brass through the sizing die then did you flare the case mouth prior to seating the bullets? If not then probably not enough neck tension to help hold the bullet.
    This along with a weak crimp would allow the bullets to move forward upon firing the first round.

    I agree seat the bullets out just a tad bit more to allow more of the crimp to be in the crimp groove.


    I was wondering about that. I thought I was doing the right thing because the case lengths are exactly the dimension they were supposed to be. I thought if I resized them, they might get too long and then I'd have to trim them. I don't have a case trimmer yet but will get one soon, hopefully.

    I am using Winchester WLP primers. Does it look like the crimp is far enough back on the case?
    The directions for these RCBS dies says you can get a roll or a taper crimp out of the same die, depending on how you set it up. Which one should I be going for?

    I loaded 50 of these and shot 6 of them today. What should I do now with the 44 I have left? Should I try to seat them deeper and put more of a crimp on? Or should I pull the bullets, dump the powder, run through the re-sizer (even though it's new brass) and then seat them deeper and try to put more of a crimp on?

    Yes, most of the bullets would barely fit in the casing and would slide down but I didn't think it mattered. The cases probably do need to be tighter for these to work right.
  • charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,579 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I don't see how you can get a roll crimp or a taper crimp out of the same die. Good roll crimp for mag loads in a wheel gun. Only load one at a time in the cylinder and shoot them.

    Except for my 22 Jet I have never trimmed cases for my pistols. Some go thirty+ times before they split at the neck. I did modify the seater die on my Lee 44 mag die to better tolerate varying case length. Crimping requires a certain amount of feel or you need to use of kind of brass and uniform the length to be able to just set the tool up nad process away.

    +1 for good hard cast lead bullet. Lyman 452424
  • navc130navc130 Member Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    That load is a maximum load for T/C Contender and Remingto XP-100 only. Not recommended for revolver, according to the Lyman Reloading Handbook 47 Ed. Bullets should always be a friction fit into the case. You SHOULD NOT be able to insert a bullet with your fingers. Possibly sizing the new cases will resolve that issue. Different brands of cases will have slightly different wall thickness and you may have to experiment to get the right fit. For revolvers a good heavy roll crimp is proper, right in the middle of the crimping groove. Please read up in a couple of good reloading books, especially about maximum loads. You are lucky to be shooting a Ruger with that load. It produces .44 Magnum velocity / pressure.
  • dg101windg101win Member Posts: 751 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Just out of curiosity is this your first time loading at all or just first time for loading for handguns?
    Most manuals show pictures of proper crimps.

    You will find that a lot of people do not trim handgun brass. I never have. I am shooting some brass I have had for almost 40 years.
    My opinion you seated the bullets just a tad too deep. Ideally I like to see a little bit of the crimp ring(cannelure) on the bullet to be showing after I crimp them. With these loads you need a heavy roll crimp.

    My copy of Nosler book 4th edition also shows 25 graims as MAX. It is never a good idea to start where you did at 24 grains. A safe start woud be 10% below max or in this case 22.5 grains.

    DO NOT seat them any deeper this would raise the pressure and while a Ruger Blackhawk is strong I would not want to put it to the test.
    In your pics you show a loaded round and a round where the bullet walked. Load yours to a length between those 2.

    Hope this helps.
  • perry shooterperry shooter Member Posts: 17,390
    edited November -1
    Read my Stick at top of this forum THOUGHTS ON CRIMPING REVOLVER LOADS
  • babunbabun Member Posts: 11,054 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You do realize that you are loading at the very top of the pressure limits of ALL .45LC loads listed. That load of yours, in a PROPERLY assembled shell is the highest c.u.p of just about anything.

    http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

    I am very worried about your "thinking" because it is the "old" 4227,
    it's okay to use that load. Older powders must be handled with more caution than a brand new can of the same thing. {Read that as start low and go up slowly}
  • JackBwrJackBwr Member Posts: 1,756 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by dg101win
    Just out of curiosity is this your first time loading at all or just first time for loading for handguns?
    Most manuals show pictures of proper crimps.

    You will find that a lot of people do not trim handgun brass. I never have. I am shooting some brass I have had for almost 40 years.
    My opinion you seated the bullets just a tad too deep. Ideally I like to see a little bit of the crimp ring(cannelure) on the bullet to be showing after I crimp them. With these loads you need a heavy roll crimp.

    My copy of Nosler book 4th edition also shows 25 graims as MAX. It is never a good idea to start where you did at 24 grains. A safe start woud be 10% below max or in this case 22.5 grains.

    DO NOT seat them any deeper this would raise the pressure and while a Ruger Blackhawk is strong I would not want to put it to the test.
    In your pics you show a loaded round and a round where the bullet walked. Load yours to a length between those 2.

    Hope this helps.


    Thanks a lot for all of the replies. This has been very helpful.

    Yes, this was my first time loading ammo myself. I've had most of the equipment for about 8 years. I slowly acquired more. Then I had the brass, bullets and powder for a few years. Large pistol primers were scarce for a while and hard to locate without paying the hazard fee. So I put it on the back burner again. This summer, I got the urge to finally try this. Somebody on here was selling the primers and paying the hazmat fee so I bought them. And I bought a good scale that I can trust. Finally got to the point where I could do something.

    Been a couple months since I've had the primers. So I sat down, learned how everything works and loaded a few this week.

    That is awesome that you don't have to trim pistol cases. That will save some time and money in the short term. How about .45ACPs in semi-auto pistols? Will they get too long or can you re-size them a few times without a problem?
    I need something to clean cases. Don't know whether to go with one that uses the media or the new ones with fluid.

    Anyway, back on topic... The Nosler manual 5th edition that I have only gives 3 loads for this size bullet with this powder. 24, 24.5 and 25 grains as being a max load. So I went with 24, the low one. I know this is high for the older style revolvers. If I was loading for one of those, I would have used the previous page and the lighter load.

    After firing a few, I do agree that it's probably more than I needed to use. I think I'm going to pop them all open, dump the powder and go with 20 grains. I don't need to push the limits and beat the gun up. I was originally only going to load 10. Wish I would have stuck with that plan.

    I will look at my books and see what I need to know about a roll crimp. I also have the Hornady 7th edition but dont currently own any of the powders listed in it yet.
  • JackBwrJackBwr Member Posts: 1,756 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by babun
    You do realize that you are loading at the very top of the pressure limits of ALL .45LC loads listed. That load of yours, in a PROPERLY assembled shell is the highest c.u.p of just about anything.

    http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

    I am very worried about your "thinking" because it is the "old" 4227,
    it's okay to use that load. Older powders must be handled with more caution than a brand new can of the same thing. {Read that as start low and go up slowly}


    I've read a lot of forums on loading .45LC and I know it was towards the higher end because I haven't seen anybody talking about loading them with this much. But I read them after the fact. I was going by the book so I thought it was ok.
    From what I've read in other conversations, the IMR4227 of the past is not the H4227 of today. Supposedly it's a different formula. The book I'm using was out around the time I bought the powder. It's the only reference I had for using this powder.
    Hornady 7th ed. doesn't have new or old IMR powder as an option, even though they list 10 different options.
  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    First thing is to unload all that ammo.
    Remove the decapping pin and resize the brass.
    Use a starting load of that 4227 and crimp bullets heavily.
    Don't load more than 12 pieces and test before loading a box or more.
  • MIKE WISKEYMIKE WISKEY Member, Moderator Posts: 9,961 ******
    edited November -1
    the others have covered your problems well but note; 4227 (any of them) will not burn 'clean' in any straight walled (pistol) case, it works well with 'hi end' loads but still leaves a lot of unburned powder in the barrel.
  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I don't know about that last one.
    Unique, 4227 and 2400 leave grains in low pressure calibers. Unburnt powder residue decreases as pressure goes up as in 30 carbine, 357 and 44 mag straight cases which operate at twice the 45LC pressure.
    Rifles in these low pressure straight walled calibers do a better job of burning these powders.
  • bambambambambambam Member Posts: 4,814 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Just saw your pix.

    You need more crimp. The bullets look to be taper crimped. Role crimp would be my choice.

    As stated before, crimp in the middle of the cannelure(crimp ring).

    I haven't checked your load data, just be sure it's in the published data relm.
  • Riomouse911Riomouse911 Member Posts: 3,492 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You asked about taper crimp/roll crimp. There is a sticky at the top of this page that explains what they are. Personally I like the top of my case crimped right in the center of the cannelure on jacketed bullets...provided it's the proper Over All Length (OAL).

    I've had bullets jump from too little crimp myself, it's part of the learning process with these heavy-bullet cartridges. The suggestion to load a few and try them out before cranking out a bunch rings true. I had to re-crimp over 150 rounds after my first few jumped the cases because I didn't follow that little maxim....plus getting the revolver cylinder unbound was a beast as well.

    If you can, get a can of Unique and use that for your next batch. IMO it's a very consistent and easy-to-use powder with a variety of mid-range loads in these big-cased cartridges, including the XTP bullet you have. As a (minor) plus, it doesn't take 20+ grains to get there so a pound goes a bit further than some of the others as well.
  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,664 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Get some Unique. It is a lot better powder for your purposes. I have never found 4227 to be any where near the usefulness of other powders. Even Blue Dot would be a better choice for you IMNSHO.
  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I agree with those that posted 4227 isn't a good choice for this round in this firearm. Even though the Hodgdon Data includes it. Hodgdon, data also limits out at 24.6 gr. The number one rule in reloading is start low and work up. I've never started at mid-range or higher in any caliber unless I've already worked with it a bunch or accidentally started too high. That mistake made me take a serious look at how to attain a starting point. We've had a bunch of new calibers, bullets, and powders in the past 10 years. So, the old standby's work. But new stuff might work better. As long as you work up from a safe starting point.

    Next. As you noted you could get the bullets to slip right in to the unsized case. I've never had, pistol or rifle, cases where you could slip the right sized bullet into it. Are you sure you had the right sized bullets? Maybe the wrong size bullets got put into your box. Did you measure them? The bullets sliding into unsized cases would have had me measuring and checking both bullets and cases to see why.
    Pulling the remaining 44 bullets and powder and re-loading them (with a more suitable powder) would be my recommendation.

    The taper you have there appears to be a taper crimp not a roll crimp. Anytime you load a revolver, you need a roll crimp. Make sure the die is a roll crimp. Some dies are made with either as different kinds of firearms require one or the other. Check this on your die. You might also set your die down a bit on a case and see it eventually rolls and doesn't taper crimp.

    Fortunately for you, the gun you have is an extremely strong one. Therefore, forgiving of what happened. I suggest going to a low pressure powder such as Unique, Bullseye or some other 'flammable dirt' type powder and start low and work up.

    -good luck
  • jonkjonk Member Posts: 10,121
    edited November -1
    Yes, size the cases. Any good loading manual includes these instructions, as do many die sets, when dealing with new brass. If you don't feel like pulling them you could load one round into the cylinder at a time, shoot, then load one more round, etc.

    Regarding the load being high end,if you are SURE that your powder and manual are of similar vintage AND you are using the exact recipe listed including cases and primers, you are good to go, though as said, other powders would be a better choice.
  • gotstolefromgotstolefrom Member Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    H e l l o J a c k ! !

    Add your email address to your profile here.
    Some of the guy's that gave longer replies might have gone with an email if it was available...

    Also, I have generally found that Email replies were more detailed and had information attached or pasted in the email....something that gets cumbersome in the forum "space".
  • JackBwrJackBwr Member Posts: 1,756 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks for all the advice guys. I popped all the bullets out tonight, dumped the powder, and sized the cases. I never ran them through the first die because I was using new brass and didnt think it was necessary. So I left the primers in them, backed the pin up and ran them into it. Wow they went in tight. It definitely narrowed them up.
    Then I belled the case mouths with the next die. Then I think I got the seater die set just right. The groove was just peaking up over the top edge of the case and the crimp seemed to be good. I followed the directions for a roll crimp.

    I only loaded 15 of them this time and I went with 20 grains of powder. My only question now is about case bulge. The directions mention it. The bullets seated alot tighter this time. Should you be able to feel the back of the bullet through the casing? It does bump out slightly. But the crimp line only comes down about 1/8".
  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,664 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It is common for the case to be pushed out a bit where the bullet is. You now have good case tension on the bullet!

    I still recommend you get some Unique powder for the 45LC, you will like it.
  • 1935Lee1935Lee Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    My only question now is about case bulge. The directions mention it.

    Normanly I keep my mouth shut[:I] but if there was a reloader within driving distance you should pay him or her a visit. All cases will bulge if you overdo the crimp. your dies are a roll crimp not taper!

    Your orginal problem was caused by two factors, not sizing the new brass and to hot of a load. Experence is something we get a few minutes after we need it. Reloading will always be a learning experence no matter how long you've been doing it.

    http://www.hodgdon.com/hodgdon.html when ever I have a load question

    you might want to consider a Lee factory crimp die for the 45 Colt[:)]
  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,664 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote: The directions mention it. The bullets seated alot tighter this time. Should you be able to feel the back of the bullet through the casing?
    I think he means the BASE of the bullet. And yes that is common, normal and to be expected. If you over crimp a straight walled cartridge you are more apt to push the case down making a wrinkle.
  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,664 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Soreshoulder,
    He is loading the 45 LC AKA the 45 Colt, not the 44 mag.
  • JackBwrJackBwr Member Posts: 1,756 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by bpost
    quote: The directions mention it. The bullets seated alot tighter this time. Should you be able to feel the back of the bullet through the casing?
    I think he means the BASE of the bullet. And yes that is common, normal and to be expected. If you over crimp a straight walled cartridge you are more apt to push the case down making a wrinkle.


    Thanks for all the help again. Yes, I did mean the base, you can feel through the casing a bit. The bullets are actually not seated deeper, I left them out a slight bit more. You can just see the groove over the casing. I followed the directions in the die set for putting the crimp on and what I was doing made sense this time. I can see a faint line on the case where the crimp stops. It's only maybe a 1/16th down. I believe they're going to work now.
  • goodgunpartsgoodgunparts Member Posts: 103 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Surprised no one commented on changing the powder measure to lower then specified in the book.

    It is my limited understanding that you should not go under or over recommended powder measure.
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