Anyone Load for a 8X56mm Mannlicher Schoenauer

spirits

I already have the "Cartridges of the World" and "Philip Sharpe?" load recommendations for loading the 8X56mm MS. I was wondering if anyone had any "personal experience loading for this cartridge" and if you do what loading data you use. The rifle is a Mannlicher Schoenauer Model 1908.

Thank You

jaegermister

I load this as well as various other obsolete European 8mm cartridges.
I always load "light", reason being these are old guns, old wood, why punish them? Light loads give better case life. I use 4895 powder in almost all, it is a large grain powder and fills cases better with light loads. 40 gr 4895 is "my" top for this caliber (170gr bullet), and before that I work up from 35gr to 40gr for each individual gun. The trick is bullet selection. In order to get good mushrooming or upset at around 2000fps I have found the Speer 170gr .323 hot core (product code 2283) to be best. I have never got good accuracy with bullets less than 170gr(8mm) and all bullets above 170gr(8mm) performed poorly at mushrooming although accurate at my velocities.

spirits

jaegermister

I will try the Speer 170 grain hot core with IMR 4895 next; and I agree with you about loading for these older rifles.

The first twenty "Quality Cartridge cases fired by the previous owner" I loaded using the components on hand and I thought I was being very conservative. I used Hornaday 170 grain round nose soft point and four sets (i.e., 5 cartridges each) of powder loads of 40, 41, 42, and 43 grains IMR 4064 seating the bullet's cannelure just above the neck's mouth. (Note: I did slug the Model 1908's barrel and the groove diameter is 0.323"; and the rifle's headspace appeared correct using a Stoney Point gauge, two of the fired cases at the extreme ends of the shoulder's datum point lengths, and pieces of cellophane tape.) The IMR 4064 loads for the 170 grain bullet were at the low end of the 8X57mm JS loads I found in several new and old reloading manuals. The cases were also sorted using the Stoney Point gauge, trimmed and case mouths deburred, primer pockets reamed to the same depth, and flash holes deburred.

I'll let you know how my reloads shoot.

Thank You

Kenneth

jaegermister

If you have a chrono it really helps, mostly in establishing consistent
velocity, which comes from consistent pressure which can vary due to barrel/bullet/powder combination. Helps you find that perfect load which varies with each firearm. With todays' electronics chronographs are really affordable.

Stout Shooting

I have the same rifle and realy like it. A friend reloaded some cartridges for it but I don't have the data he used. Ken Waters has the book Pet Loads and it has data on it if you can find the book.

jaegermister

When you are working up your load test fire with rounds in the magazine. Inspect the rounds in the magazine for recoil contact. Sometimes excessive overall length allows bullets to be pushed back into the case neck during recoil. With the bullet far forward in the neck there is less support and resistance to nose damage.This will effect the magazine rounds accuracy by causing their bullets to be seated at a tilt in their cases. Don't just accept single feed performance, duplicate the entire full magazine hunting situation. Normally I like to bring a bullet just up to the rifling, in a single shot break open, but in a bolt action box magazine this may cause magazine feed problems or allow for recoil bullet nose contact.

jonk

It is almost identical to the 8X57 Mauser, just a mm shorter. The Mannlicher action is a little weaker than the 98, but on the flip side, most load manuals you find soft pedal the data in case anyone uses it in a Gewehr 88- a Mannlicher action.

I'd just use 8X57 data and stay off the max loads.

spirits

To All/

I ordered The Rifle Magazine #175 June 1995 from Wolfe Publishing, this issue has Ken Waters' article on loading for the 8X56mm MS.

To jaegermister/

I've read James Carmichael a lot about reloading and I think you are referring to bullet obturation. It is caused by the bullet not being concentric with bore and the bullet becomes elongated (i.e., not all sides of the bullet are the same length). Thus, when the bullet leaves the muzzle there is an unbalance of forces on the bullet's base which can not be very good for accuracy.

When I shoot my reloads I'll bring my watch calipers and check if there is any change in the overall cartridges' lengths as I shoot a full magazine. Keeping track of the cases will be easy, since the cartridge cases are already numbered from the earlier Stoney Point sorting of the cases' shoulder datum point lengths.

Kenneth

jaegermister

I have understood bullet obturation to describe how a bullet swells to fill the bore. A civil war period minie bullet(ball) obturates at the bullet base. In any event you are aware of magazine bullet damage from recoil. Depending on how far the bullet is seated in the neck can lead to insufficient support and the bullet seated back into the neck case off center. The bullet then begins it's travel from the neck case slightly off center ,the rifling cuts in and holds it there rotating the bullet off center, it leaves the muzzle with a slight yaw.
I only brought this up because many shooters fail to test fire at the range under actual hunting conditions. After you have fired singularly, allowing for cool down and are satisfied then do a full magazine test.
You would be surprised at how much a fully loaded tubular large caliber magazine on a lever action rifle will effect barrel vibration. Not all rifles but check it out.
You got a nice smooth action stalking rifle, and I like how a 8mm handles the heavier 170gr + bullets better than a .30cal and yet not as big as the larger .30+ cal cartridges. Do some testing to insure you are getting good mushrooming.

spirits

jaegermister

You're correct sorry for the confusion. Obturation is how the gases upset the bullet's base as in the case of the lead slugs, the mini-ball, and possibly skirted pellets to fit the bore.

I don't know if there is a single word for the type of deformation a bullet undergoes when it starts out miss-aligned with the bore axis. I think, the bullet deformation is primarily due to shearing forces but these forces are not equal on the bullet's sides. Then the bullet's profile becomes like a parallelogram but with unequal sides (i.e., a quadrilateral).

This weekend I should get a chance to shoot the 8X56mm and see if there is any effect on the cartridges due to recoil.

Kenneth

Ambrose

The cartridge-specific spool magazine of the Mannlicher Schoenauer rifle makes it pretty difficult to deform bullets from recoil. The cartridges are quite effectively held in place at the shoulder preventing the tips of the bullets from being damaged or the bullets themselves from being pushed back by contacting the front wall of the magazine. Also, the 8x56 cartridge is quite mild so it is doubtful that enough inertia would be created to pull the bullet forward from the case.

spirits

Shot the Mannlicher Schoenauer 1908 today.

The 40 grain IMR 4064 load with the Hornaday 170 grain round nose soft point was more accurate than the 41, 42, and 43 grain loads. Using the 200 meter leaf on the rear sight, I was able to shoot five into about one and a half inch (first shot through a clean was just a little high) with the last four clustered together into less than an inch at a range of about 50 yards. All five were shot from the magazine; and there was no change in the overall cartridge length due to recoil. The recoil felt something like my 0.308 Ruger rifle. Considering that the bullets could not be seated out to just miss the lands (Note rifle has about 3/8 inch free bore.) and the fuzzy sight picture due to the rear iron sights and my old eyes, accuracy was very acceptable. There was also no pressure signs(i.e., no noticeable flattening of the primers) except that the primers backed out just a bit. Even better, I didn't even have to adjust the iron sights for the 50 yard range.

jaegermister

If you intend to hunt suggest you do some bullet performance tests.
Again I have found the 170gr hot core by speer to be excellent. I firmly believe that bullet upset or mushrooming taking place in the right area and depth is critical. Varmint shooting or shooting into thick water soaked catalogs will give you evidence.

spirits

The Speer Hot Core 170 grain 0.323 bullets are on MidwayUSA back order.

After shooting my reloads, I checked the distance from the head of the case to datum point on the case's shoulder using the Stoney Point Guage with the 0.375" bushing. I also used a Lee Decapper to deprime the fired cases first. All the cases' shoulders measured 0.002" to 0.005" shorter compared to their measurements before shooting them. The headspace may be on the long side. I have a 257 Roberts in a 1950 Mannlicher Schoenauer (MS) rifle which has about 0.01" too much headspace; and each firing usually shortened the cases' datum point measurement. (Note that the 257 Roberts cases were necked sized using a Lee Collet die and load was a Nosler 115 ballistic tip just 0.010" off the lands using H4831 according to the loading data in the Hodgdon manual.) From what I was able to determine the cases were being shortened by the impact of that MS heavy firing pin driving the cases into the chamber's shoulder area. I replaced the old 257R fired cases with new cases; and the new cases were first run through a 7X57mm FL sizer and then I used a 257R FL sizer to resize the neck very carefully to leave a small bump at the case's shoulder which was compressed against the chamber's shoulder. This one initial step in sizing the new cases cured the shortening of the cases; and thereafter, I only neck sized the cases like I usually do when I reload.

A similar procedure could be done with the 8X56mm MS cases too.

I wonder if any other reloaders for Mannlicher Schoenauers have run into this problem?

Ambrose

If you have access to a chronograph, I would suggest you check the velocity of your loads. My rifle in 8x56MS is a 1908 Manlicher Schoenauer carbine with a 19.5" barrel. I have loaded 46.5 gr of IMR4064 with a 170 gr Speer semi-spitzer bullet and the velocity was 2274 fps according to my Oehler. I can't imagine 40 gr of IMR4064 would produce as much as 2000 fps.

spirits

Ambrose

Glad to see someone else uses IMR 4064 for loading the 8X56mm MS. I choose the lighter loads for safety considerations; and I was primarily looking for a light accurate load. The 40 grains IMR 4064 with the Hornaday 170 RN SP is accurate enough for stalking feral hogs at less than 50 yards with the only shot I take is behind the ear (or I don't shoot).

Yesterday, I received The Rifle #175 from Wolfe Publishing. Ken Waters in his 8X56mm pet loads stopped at 44.5 grains IMR 4064 with the Sierra 175 grain bullet in a 1908 MS rifle but he was using modified new 8X57mm cases which were a little oversize (~ 0.005") near the head to begin with. He was getting approximately 2400 ft/s with his 1908 MS rifle.

What cases do you use in your reloading and do the primers ever back out any with your higher IMR 4064 loads?

Thank You

Ambrose

I am using modified Winchester 8x57 cases and I haven't had any trouble with primers backing out.

I have that Ken Waters article in the Rifle magazine and you will note that his most accurate load was 44 gr. of Reloader 15 with the 175 gr Sierra. I have not tried that load. My rifle came to me without a rear sight so I had to improvise and I haven't been able to come up with what I would like. That and, as you mentioned, old eyes do not contribute much to accuracy.

The best load I've tried is 45 gr. IMR3031 with 170 gr Hornady RN for 2333 fps and two 5-shot groups that average 2.67" @ 100 yds.

I do not think that these rifles, in good condition, are that feeble (and apparently Ken Waters thinks the same). Loads that generate 2000+ ft/lbs of muzzle energy should be entirely safe, even conservative. A 170/175 gr bullet @ 2300 fps produces that kind of energy and is not much more than the .30/30 and .32 Special.

These old rifles are fun to put back into use and, like you, I don't want to abuse them. Good luck with yours.

v35

Back off your sizing die to let necks come forward and get rid of the excess headspace.

dutchwind

If you've only got one, you can decap and neck size it in an 8x57 Lee Loader and save a huge amount of wear & tear on your brass; your regular 8x57 loading die'll work, too--just stay away from full-length resizing. I've found at least one good load for 150gr Hornadys at 2600; with my Pachmayer swing-off scope I still get better than 3" groups at 100--2" with factory loads (the old Winchester-Western 200gr). Buy a couple of boxes and treat the brass right; you'll shoot a long time. It'll take anything in North America with the right bullet placement--and that's what hunting's all about. Mine has a Weaver 2-1/2x post scope, by the way. Mine likes the 170 Speer, the 170 Hornady RNSP and 195 SP, and the 175 Sierra, too. Have fun--and mind yer topknots! windy

spirits

dutchwind

Found a 8mm Mauser FL die and it works great for just neck sizing the 8X56mm case except for that last mm of the neck near the shoulder which doesn't matter since the bullets seat tight enough.

Thanks