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Spent primers

Gunman760Gunman760 Member Posts: 140 ✭✭
edited November 2014 in Perry Shooter Competition Shooting and Reloading Forum
I have a question for you gentlemen of greater knowledge than I. I have been reloading for many years (38), but this is the first time I have experienced this problem. I am getting ready to reload some 7mm mag. casings and while full length resizing, I noticed that only the primer caps or tops were coming out. It looks like all of the outside perimeter of the primer is still in the casing. Am I crazy, or is there something weird going on here? Thank you in advance for all of your knowledge and help. Terry
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    babunbabun Member Posts: 11,054 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Some ???
    1] Are they factory primers or reloaded already?
    2] Have all of them been shot in the same gun?

    If reloads, may have too hot and primers were about to fail.
    Same gun, check the face of the bolt, does it have a firing pin bushing
    in it? May be bad.
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    Gunman760Gunman760 Member Posts: 140 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Babun, I have resized 10 casings and only 1 primer came out whole. These are factory loads all shot out of the same Remington 700 BDL LH rifle. I will have to pull the bolt and look at that. Thank you for the suggestions. Terry
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    zimmdenzimmden Member Posts: 237 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Do you have the proper size depriming rod (pin)in the FL sizer. A small pin may push out only the center of the primer. Let us know.
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    AmbroseAmbrose Member Posts: 3,164 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I want to be sure I understand you correctly. The cylindrical portion of the primer cup remains in the primer pocket?? I have a few more years reloading than you and I haven't had that happen. Of course the day ain't over, yet! I've done thousands of military cases with crimped and sealed in primers and they always came out. The primers would bulge sometimes and I'd break a pin once in a while but never left part of a primer in the case. I can't imagine that there's anything wrong with your equipment or your method. What does the disc and the anvil that you pushed out look like? From here, I'm guessing the factory is experimenting with a new primer sealant that effectively welded the primer in place. Or is it possible that some one used a super glue as an after market attempt to seal the primer against moisture? What brand of cases?
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    XXCrossXXCross Member Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Most of us that have done a fair amount of reloading have probably
    had a similar experience on a limited scale. My guess would be that the brass used in that batch of primer cups is too hard. When a primer is pushed out of a case, it actually stretches and becomes smaller....unless it's too hard, then it separates.
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    Gunman760Gunman760 Member Posts: 140 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Zimmden; as far as I know, it is the proper size decapping pin. I use RCBS dies and I have not changed anything on them. Ambrose; I have never had anything like this happen either. It's like someone made a cut parrallel to the face of the primer. The disc is pretty much flat with an indent from the firing pin. These are all older factory Remington shells. By older I mean probaby made at least 10 to 15 years ago. Thank you to all of you who have responded with your imput. It is greatly appreciated.
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    charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,579 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have seen this issue a few times, perhaps 10 individual cases over about 50 years. Do the primers had a colored sealant? Or maybe someone along the way super glued them in as an waterproofing measure?

    Try some other rounds (from a different lot) in your rifle to see if it happens again. If it doesn't that should rule out rifle and die issues, leaving it a fluke with that lot. 15 years; maybe a little older to the previous "Great Primer Shortage" and some sub-standard stuff made it threw,
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    jonkjonk Member Posts: 10,121
    edited November -1
    I'm sorry, but what you say doesn't make total sense. You say that "just the primer caps or tops are coming out, the outside perimeter is still in the casing."

    A primer has two pieces. The cup and the anvil. Are you saying that the cup is coming out and the anvil is staying in, or that the decapping rod is punching through the primer and not removing either part? Because there is no 'cap', 'top', or 'outside perimeter' to discuss.

    A picture is worth a thousand words, if you can take a picture of what's happening.

    I have had it many times with crimped military cases, that the decapping rod punched through the primer and didn't remove it. But I don't think that any factory loaded cases have crimped primer pockets. I presume that you didn't get some European made berdan stuff.

    So again, kind of at a loss as to what's happening.
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    babunbabun Member Posts: 11,054 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    With 55,000 psi's brass moves.[:D]

    Look at these badly cratered primers, I bet just the "tops" of the cups will be popping out, like the op says.
    image001.jpg

    What if a thinner pistol primer was used??? It may have deformed itself so much that it finally separated when the decapping pin hit it??


    Here was my concern about the bolt face. Bet those primers came out in pieces.[xx(]
    burnt_223_bolt_face.jpg
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    bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,664 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I understand what you are saying; it has happened to me. The anvil with the TOP of the primer is being removed by the decapping pin. The body of the primer is still in the pocket.

    I took a broken drift pin punch and ground a hook shape into the stub, I used it to pry the remnants of the primer out of the pocket. It takes a bit of fiddling to get the hook the right size, right shape, right sharpness to work but work it will.

    Not sure why it happened but my guess is a very brittle primer cup compounded by some moisture, corrosion causing the primer walls to seize the case walls so well it won't release in the press.
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    Gunman760Gunman760 Member Posts: 140 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I am trying to upload the pictures now so you gentlemen can see what I am trying to describe. bpost, I think you know exactly what is happening. I am just dumbfounded as to what caused this. Maybe it is just the fact that these are older cartridges.
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    Gunman760Gunman760 Member Posts: 140 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Can't seem to get the pics into the message. HELP
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    babunbabun Member Posts: 11,054 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Gunman760
    Can't seem to get the pics into the message. HELP

    you have to have your pics on a website host,such as photobucket, imageshack, hunt.com or others.

    then you use their website page to load to here. You can not load from a device or pc directly here.

    [:(]
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    Gunman760Gunman760 Member Posts: 140 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    KIMG0005_zps3cab3dd9.jpg.htmlhttp://s1288.photobucket.com/user/Gunman760/media/KIMG0007_zpse1b77c43.jpg.html
    Ok, I think I got this to work. The first picture is before the casings were resized, and the 2nd pic shows the casing on the right with the full spent primer removed, and the casing in the middle and on the left with only a part of the primer removed.
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    charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,579 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Those primers are cratered bad. I suspect the load is on the way hot side for your rifle. The good news is they aren't completely flat at the edge and they didn't fall out when you extracted the cases.
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    babunbabun Member Posts: 11,054 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by charliemeyer007
    Those primers are cratered bad. I suspect the load is on the way hot side for your rifle. The good news is they aren't completely flat at the edge and they didn't fall out when you extracted the cases.


    yeap,but you said there were factory loads????
    See the brass flowing up around the firing pin dent?
    Thats a sign of heavy loads usually. Or a gun problem.

    KIMG0007_zpse1b77c43.jpg
    [img]<a href="http://s1288.photobucket.com/user/Gunman760/media/KIMG0006_zps772c689f.jpg.html&quot; target="_blank"><img src="http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b487/Gunman760/KIMG0006_zps772c689f.jpg&quot; border="0" alt=" photo KIMG0006_zps772c689f.jpg"/></a>[/img]
    [img]<a href="http://s1288.photobucket.com/user/Gunman760/media/KIMG0006_zps772c689f.jpg.html&quot; target="_blank"><img src="http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b487/Gunman760/KIMG0006_zps772c689f.jpg&quot; border="0" alt=" photo KIMG0006_zps772c689f.jpg"/></a>[/img]
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    bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,664 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You can't use primers to "read" pressures. Your cases look normal, a slightly oversize firing pin hole, weak firing pin spring and several other factors can allow primers to look like that after firing. See how the cup edges are still rounded, that is not indicating high pressure.

    A FLAT primer, like the one Babun posted pics of where the line between case and primer is almost gone is indeed high pressure signs.

    My bet is still what I posted originally. I have seen it before, don't know what caused it and saved 90% of the cases by prying out the cup walls as I described.
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    Gunman760Gunman760 Member Posts: 140 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks to all of you who have taken the time to respond and give input and observations. It is greatly appreciated. There are 3 more rounds left to fire out of that box and then it is finished. I will be loading a 150 gr. bullet instead of the 175 gr. that was the factory load. Terry
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    Gunman760Gunman760 Member Posts: 140 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    For anyone that is interested, this is what the primers look like after they have been punched out of the casings.http://s1288.photobucket.com/user/Gunman760/media/KIMG0009_zpsbbb4ee4b.jpg.html
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    AmbroseAmbrose Member Posts: 3,164 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You may not want to bother trying this especially since you have only a few cartridges left. I would try removing the decapping assembly from the die and the shell holder from the press. Set the shell holder on the bench and slide a case into it. Drop the decapper into the case making sure the punch is in the flash hole. Now try tapping the primer out with a plastic hammer. Maybe the shock rather than a steady push might break the primer loose (or maybe not!).
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    MobuckMobuck Member Posts: 13,793 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I've seen this happen with cases that had been outside(as in range collected) and the primer corrodes in the pocket.
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    Gunman760Gunman760 Member Posts: 140 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Mobuck, these are factory loads, not reloads. I keep all of my ammo in a cool dry place. Just thought you should know. quote:Originally posted by Mobuck
    I've seen this happen with cases that had been outside(as in range collected) and the primer corrodes in the pocket.
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