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585HE,Cases In Production, Tested Strong----
hubel458
Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
585 HE ---Tested Super Strong --
If you've followed our work in the 12ga FH thread you've seen
our 585 HE cartridge and its development. there are barrels
of cases and more being made.
We have put it in all kinds of guns, and tested it with 650gr
bullet over 3000 fps as heavy load to test the brass, and also
for lighter game like deer and hogs and target fun we found
that some of 440gr- 540gr 58cal Minie bullets work great.
First picture shows it next to 505 Gibbs, it has same overall
loaded length as a Gibbs. Holds 190gr ball powder under bullets...
Second picture is a barrel of cases..
Third representative of types of guns we have it in.Ed
.
.
.
We get asked about recoil. Guns are weighted a little, thick pads,
can be ported, use moderate loads, they shoot nice...And moderate
loads still much faster than 577NE. And can be built without
costing a years pay.
Most local users(only 1 in 10000 hunters go Africa) can
shoot lighter .585 Minie bullets, which load for about 75 cents each,
once you have cases. Great for target fun, hogs, deer, etc... Cases
last forever. We can load to any power level we need or want.
We have a way to get 100 cases, dies, barrel to put in something.
There is a die and barrel supply available.
.
Asked about using in a #1, And it's perfect case for the Ruger #1.
The few #1s ever done in 577, they had to relieve
metal behind the action shoulders that breach block
rests against because of rim. Ours don't have to and the #1s
extractors I've seen work better with belted case than big rimmed.
Ours holds more powder, cases built for extreme pressures.Ed
If you've followed our work in the 12ga FH thread you've seen
our 585 HE cartridge and its development. there are barrels
of cases and more being made.
We have put it in all kinds of guns, and tested it with 650gr
bullet over 3000 fps as heavy load to test the brass, and also
for lighter game like deer and hogs and target fun we found
that some of 440gr- 540gr 58cal Minie bullets work great.
First picture shows it next to 505 Gibbs, it has same overall
loaded length as a Gibbs. Holds 190gr ball powder under bullets...
Second picture is a barrel of cases..
Third representative of types of guns we have it in.Ed
...We get asked about recoil. Guns are weighted a little, thick pads,
can be ported, use moderate loads, they shoot nice...And moderate
loads still much faster than 577NE. And can be built without
costing a years pay.
Most local users(only 1 in 10000 hunters go Africa) can
shoot lighter .585 Minie bullets, which load for about 75 cents each,
once you have cases. Great for target fun, hogs, deer, etc... Cases
last forever. We can load to any power level we need or want.
We have a way to get 100 cases, dies, barrel to put in something.
There is a die and barrel supply available.
.
Asked about using in a #1, And it's perfect case for the Ruger #1.
The few #1s ever done in 577, they had to relieve
metal behind the action shoulders that breach block
rests against because of rim. Ours don't have to and the #1s
extractors I've seen work better with belted case than big rimmed.
Ours holds more powder, cases built for extreme pressures.Ed
Comments
I am a big bore researcher, gunnut, and wildcatter,
and have posted our work around the net.
Under the name of the thread, 12ga From Hell
I have worked on 12,10,8,4ga, wildcat 700s and up and
down. And have tested long 28, 24, 20ga cases.
Favorite wildcat that is gaining numbers is the 585 Hubel Express.
Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia.
A nicely stocked Ruger #1, nice dark grained stock.
It is owned by the poster, ''tankhunter'' on the AR forums.
Built by his smith who has a reamer.
Guys there can get cases from Bertram.
There are 3 barrels of cases in US.. Here is picture of 585HE in
nice stocked Enfield..First one in FL. First 585HE in TX guy
has it on Y-tube, Second picture is barrel of cases.
And they are now making another dozen barrels of cases.Ed
We get asked about recoil. Guns are weighted a little, thick pads,
can be ported, use moderate loads, they shoot nice...Moderate/hunting/target
loads still much more energy than 577NE. And can be had without costing a
years pay.
Versatility. Most none elephant hunters can use on lighter game, for
example, shoot lighter .585 Minie bullets, which load for about 75 cents each,
once you have cases. Great for target fun, hogs, deer, etc... Cases
last forever. We can load to any power level we need or want.
There are more variety of .585" bullets, jacketed,turned, lead, than any other
caliber over 458. Here are about a third we have found..
Including some extra long and heavy for whisper, subsonic type load,
with 4000 ft lbs energy. That's huge energy for subsonic cartridge
Case doesn't need special made shellholder, number 31 RCBS fits fine.
Dies available now are CH4D, 3 die set, with one inch thread.
It is a straight belted case that holds up to 190gr of doublebase powder.
To bottom of most bullets. It has effiencies of 37+%, where necked cases
in 50cal trying to get same energy, are about 29%.
The loads tested at high pressures about 65,000 psi, when extracting, the
weight of the bolt after opening pulled cases out. We've fired moderate
loads in singleshots that we mono-blocked barrels into and the cases fall
out after firing. Here is a nice single with 585HE in it.
Here is picture of first 585HE put in MRC PH. PH mag box feeds the
585HE cases as it comes from mfg. Ed
stocks, and they are rugged for extreme weather. And they
don't break under heavy loads.
And with their hollow butts very easy to add weight to take up
recoil. If lead and epoxy added to a complete fill of the hollow,
too much weight, so I found a nice cheap substitute. We started
using rubber coated mouse balls that we have a big pail of.
They are steel with rubber coating, and right weight.
And won't rattle with coating, and we hold them in tight with
a piece of dense foam pressed under butt pad.
We get asked about how much speed potential we have. And
we start by mentioning cases can hold 190-200 gr of ball powder
with the bullets loaded out.long. 200gr settled good in picture.
And more fun shooting, using 4 black powder substtiute pellets
under a Minie bullet. Nice cloud of aromatic smoke,
Pictured is 4 54cal pellets under the Minie. Ed
The barrel of our 585HE is .585" bore and rifled 24ga bore, are same size. And some of
58cal Minie bullets available to buy or cast are .585-.687" and work in the 24ga case fine.
Now we found a fast, easy way to get 24ga brass cases, just get 577NE brass and reduce
the rim from .750" to 24ga size of .720" and re-stamp casehead 20ga . Using 3" 577 brass.
We made 24ga chamber for 3" case, brass fits and the regular 24ga 2.5" plastic works also.
Our 585HE has same overall loaded length as a 505 Gibbs.
Holds up to 190gr ball powder under bullets...Any gun that can be set up for Gibbs can feed
the 585HE. The long bolt actions work, like Enfield, BBK, Savage, Ruger, MRC PH, etc,
and it is tested in break actions and falling block actions where length is not a factor..
First picture is the 585HE in a NEF we mono-blocked a 585 barrel into.
Second picture is couple cases loaded with CEB solid turned brass bullets.
Third picture is 585 in a FBW falling block action we adapted to fit into one piece stock. Ed
.
over 50 cal, and no it is not, as we applied for and got a
sporting cartridge exemption few years ago.
First picture is base view of cases new and old. On the left is the
4 new ones that come with no headstamp that I stamped,
and the 6 new ones in the middle has a 585 stamp.
We got a barrel full without stamp and guys can wildcat
them and put their own headstamp on..
Second is side view with some in # 31 holders.No special
holders needed. .Notice how uniform belts are on the new
shiny ones. Dark ones are ones I made years ago.
Third is one with bore rider bullet in with others behind. Maybe make
a great long range target/hunting cartridge.Like using Barnes bullets
Got a guy setting up one with long heavy barrel for that.
Cases are made super strong, made in the same factory run as the super
high pressure Cheytac cases. The base of our case is same size ahead of
belt as 408 Cheytac/505 Gibbs bases. Done with same cups and draws,
uses different header, bunter, and sizer. Here is picture of the one we made
and the factory one sectioned showing the strong built inside corners.
These are not old style balloon head junk cases.
We and CH4D have die sets, Manson makes reamers, and we have some.
Reamer specs all set and in the chambers made with them, the cases
extract at the highest pressures.
Here is pic of one we set with 585HE in a Greener GP..Ed
cases and other cases that were Nyati clones. These were straight basic,
long, untrimed cases, so I could get the longer case we wanted.
We get asked about the process of doing it and here is picture sketch
showing original case, a case with the start of a belt step, and finally
a case after it is swaged and sized. Note the belt diameter ends up the
same as the base diameter of the original brass. These cases we made
years ago was how we got the 585HE started and tested and some guns
done. This process can only work with original cases that have a thick
corner radius to leave plenty of thickness ahead of the belt. In doing this
process with different wildcats we have found cases that wouldn't work.
Ourcases have a diameter that works with regular .700" dia bolt guns,
without extreme machining on the bolt, as opposed to 577NE and Trex.
Here is picture of our case held in a Ruger bolt, as an example..
And our case is large enough capacity to get the power, without being an
oversize, soft case. Thicksided cases relative to size of the case are much
harder to deaw harden the heads and the lower body back up to proper
strength, because of the extreme annealling needed, in the drawing
and heading operations in the mfg process.
Our cases are made with same cups and draws as the ultra high pressure
Cheytac cases, and our real high pressure tests show they perform with
no extraction problems. We tested 70,000 psi loads.
We have experimented with black powder type of loads and the
Minie bullets, The Minies we use are the ones measuring .585".
Also for reduced loads with lesser amounts of powder we found
that 24ga wads work perfect in the case, like in this picture.
WE did couple guns in smooth barrel to test hollowbase Minies.
Found that they work for shot in our case. Holds 3/4 oz of shot.
Put a 24ga card on top and glue it in.
The one setup in the the NEF, with a 585 barrel monoblocked
into it and gun weighted, with thick pad, is the first in TX
and there is video put on ytube by the owner-- URL below-- Ed
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc
If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide
next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed
I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an
extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga
one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger
than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one
on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed
it lead to the idea of the little brother of our 585HE, a 24ga FH.
Very suitable for shotgun only deer areas, with a very effective load.
And a huge supply and variet of bullets and slugs.
Same rifled bore as our 585HE, same barrels work.
Using brass cases they get loads like 577NE which is same bore.
And many guys like idea of 577/585 size without spending
10 grand. 650gr at 2000 and 540 gr Mines at 2200 fps not too bad.
And for lighter non-African dangerous game we use a variety of
lighter 58cal saboted and lead Minie bullets as well as heavy ones..
First is picture of a Minie bullet with a seal we made from 24ga
BPI brushwad, Seal fits up inside the hollowbase of the Minies.
We make them by cutting brush wads in half, without the cushion.
Next picture is of 28cal Hornady ML sabot with .452" pistol bullets
of 250 to 300 gr in them for lighter high speed load, for 24ga FH.
Nice for deer and target fun. And all these will
still shoot in 585HE also.
Next picture is idea for the 585HE Whisper subsonic load with long,
real, heavy bullets, shown with dummy bullets in the cases.
Idea came from an experimenter, Bret in MN, and with a 1600 gr
bullet at subsonic 1050 fps gives 4000 ft lbs, a huge amount
over other subsonic cases guys have made. And can have subsonic
loads with the regular 750 gr bullets also.With 1000gr, etc.Ed
That stock helps reduce recoil in this lighter gun. Ed
Here is some of the barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
Most of the McGowens profiled and few are straight blanks.
Others from another place in paper wrap are the slow twist and
others are smooth .In back are some of the cases and die sets.
Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like. Usually
set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga
size to 577NE, to the 585 Nyati with the picture of Ross Seyfreid
shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses
off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over,
to our 585HE the strongest yet.
The 577NE is an offshoot of the 24 gauge caliber, only they went
eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short
cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the
577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, with black powder,
then on to drawn brass cases, then to 577 BP Express. then
to 3" cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet of
.570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet
diameter ended up at .585". This bore diameter of cartridge guns
and muzzle loaders it is real interesting on how they developed
and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider
was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all
over the British Empire, by the millions.
Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have a
24ga FH, a l regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and
reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And
stamp the cases 24 ga.
For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing
the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding
reasonable rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, same for 24ga.
The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are
a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned case made.
Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH,
break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug
goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.
Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed
to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles
energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel
gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which
actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.
So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun. 24ga, with 458WIN power.
.Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.
Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga
and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed
They are CEB solid nose bullets, and hollowpoints.
This bullet is turned solid with wide meplat or wide hollowpoint. .
Here is break action being set up for the 24ga FH. It is done by mono-blocking
in a .585"/24ga barrel. With the 3" 24ga brass case running 35,000 psi,
a moderate load, with 440gr minie, it gets about same power
as some loads in the 458Win. Ed
It holds lead as well as jacketed.
Here is a long turned streamlined bullet in our 585.
I do like Enfields to put our 585 in, and one of the reasons is
they have bigger bolt lugs than most, by bigger they have more
cross section where the lug is on the bolt body. And the left lug
is longer forward so as to support the case, after the bolt face is
opened for the bigger case, as the extractor
pushes the case to the left.
Anyone wanting to import barrels, actions, cases, etc into Canada from
here can work through Prophet River Firearms in Lloydminster, AB.
The here being the US, and with our group here, also having
barrels, dies, cases, and McGowen with barrels in stock,
CH4D with 585HE dies in stock, shops with # 31 shellholders.
And later a few retail outlets setup with cases in stock...Ed .
PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places 14.5
cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases
being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes
like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times.
And in a PTRD with almost a 5 foot long barrel can get 650gr
spitzer bullet to the same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using
3 times as much powder. 3300 fps. Or get a 900gr at 2800.
Great possibilities for fun shooting. And tactical use in a place
where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where
steel cases are scarce. A 100 cases do over 2000 reloads.
I like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns. .
Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by
cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on
inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like
Ruger 77 handle, one on the right . Something even a novice
like me can do.....
A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr
ones in our 24ga FH. The hollowpoint can range in weight 450gr
to 700gr.. The 24ga FH is nice complement to our
585HE for the shotgun only deer hunters... Ed
here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds .451/.452" light
bullets 225 to 300 gr. A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil
but a big bang and satisfaction. That sabot is one made for ML, but
with .452" bullet in it is a real tight fit in brass cases, to stay
in place and give good ignition. A 250 gr bullet would go about
mach 4 with a top load..
Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long.
It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow
sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of .980" ..The 5th, 6th,
7th blanks on bottom are straight 1.375" 585 regular twist blanks.
One in paper wrapper is slow twist 585 barrel...Ed
I have followed your threads on this project for many years, it has been very interesting and informative. Thank you for all of the time and expense you have put into this project, and for sharing it on this forum.
W.D.
It is .585" diameter and 650 gr and these particular ones are a
hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as
hard as copper jacketed softs. These have a flat base, and
fairly streamlined..
But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they
can be soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture
of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE.
Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out. Ed
and one setting up 24ga FH. Another friend setting up a 585HE
handed out a bunch of cases and info sheets at the SCI convention.
We are getting some more reamers made. Some more dies sent
here. Another pallet load of cases coming.
Here is picture of a light spitzer bullet in the 24ga FH case,
will work in 585 also. Good for hunting and medium range
target work.
Here is picture of 585HE we did in the FBW with regular two
piece stock.We put a tenon on the forearm to wedge into the
front of the action below the barrel and a tight barrel band
on the front. Ed
180 ft lbs recoil.ED
Full power hunting loads in 12lb 585 gun about
180 ft lbs recoil.ED
That is one heck of a slam!
I fired a 460 Whby mag and it was stunning at around 100 Ft. lbs. 180 is unimaginable. [B)][:0]
http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm
more speed than 577NE loads, the guy AUS killed couple buffalo
like a train run over them using those moderated speeds.
But top loads don't hurt me just gives a good hard shove.
Gun balance and powder types are main factors in how
the recoil impulse is felt.Ed
we have barrels of cases and more coming and many available
in stock in AUS, many guys with Trex guns can't get cases.
Here is picture of a neat falling block that could work for our
585HE with little work, the Wickcliff.
Here is picture of the singlestack mag box we built for Enfields
fitted to the bottom of BBK action.Very little changing and
it fits a lot of different actions, as a fixed magazine, with its
own feed lips,and we load from the top.Ed
singleshot test gun. We used a composite stock we
adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs.
And speaking of singleshots a fellow in the Yukon is
just finishing up one in a Ruger #1.
Here is one reason to like 585 calibers is bullet varieties,
this picture is only about half the bullets and slugs
we know of, and most can easily found. Ed
Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1, that was done in Australia.It was set up
for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed the
first AUS buff, killed by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can
go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings..
https://www.facebook.com/swanbarrels/videos
Here is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the
style of a CZ stock and metal will be finished with a Gun Kote finish.
Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a
singleshot test gun. We used a composite stock we
adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs.
Enfield in back, you can see it is longer.
And speaking of singleshots a fellow in the Yukon is
just finishing up one in a Ruger #1. ..ED
was first in records in the fifties, It was made from BMG brass shortened to 2.70" long
and necked up from 50 cal to .585" with a little sharper shoulder..
They rebated the rim quite a ways to fit 98 Mauser bolt.Used a special action.
Listed as a shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under
a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case, where our 585HE holds
180gr under a 750gr'.
We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base
and would need a BMG sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter,
and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when
guys did big wildcats they took what was available, to rework, and maybe
they could have used the 3" spotter case if they could have found a barrel full.
Here is picture of the M&G Mag .Ed
Guy did a real nice job, with what looks similiar to a Weatherby style shoulder.
Kinda outdoes Weatherby & Cheytac. We have cases with no headstamps for wildcatters.
First picture I got sent me today off of facebook and this one is from the great sniperforums.
Another fellow is planning on shortening the 585HE to maybe 2.4", for use Marlins and Henrys,
and other leverguns, redoing their 45-70s. With the belt they will have good headspace control.
Without a rim that takes up circular space, say like our 24ga FH, but which is perfect for
break actions like our 24ga FH in a Magtech...Ed
He is going to make couple later necked down to 416, and 458.
There is another guy working on doing one necked down to 357 wildcat.
Here is a picture of our poster Biebs on AR, 585 HE, in a MPI stock.
He used a big Enfield action, with a fancy jeweled bolt.
We found couple other big actions for our 585, that can even feed really
long overall length loaded cases, like 4.5" long or more, if you are
using long pointed bullets for real long range target and hunting work.
One is Lawton 8000 Cheytac action, and the other is Stiller Cheytac actions
made similiar, justa newer version. Both actions come in 1.45" diameter
and a 1.60" diameter recievers.
And Vestals Gunsmithing in Virginia does great work, decent prices, has
these actions and will build you fancy 585 HEs. .. He has, working with
another guys mag box setup, setup an extra long, good working, single
stack, center feed, magazine..He has our 585 HE reamer on hand, we have
barrels, cases, and reloading dies..Ed
Feel free to start a new thread anytime!!!