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Help with scope mount issues - UPDATE

AzAfshinAzAfshin Member Posts: 2,986 ✭✭
A couple of months back I bought a Savage Scout rifle. I put three rounds through it with the iron sights at 25 yards into pretty much one hole (could barely see the 3 clovers). So the rifle shoots fine.

I purchased a mid-price 3" offset one piece scope rings and mounted a Nikon Monarch on the scope. The ring piece is on the rifle pretty tight. The rings on the scope each have 4 screws torqued to 25. So everything is snug.

Took it out to 100 yard indoor range and it's grouping 6-7". I know I'm sub-moa shooter, the rifle shoots well, the scope is snug, and I used a string at 100 yards to get my scope leveled out.

Why is it grouping so bad? What am I overlooking?

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    swearengineswearengine Member Posts: 1,329 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    What do you mean by offset?
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    charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,579 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    What is the eye relief to your scope? Is it an extra high mount?

    Have you cleaned the bore with a good copper solvent like Shooter's Choice. JB Bore paste is helpful with new barrels. At least one fouling on a clean bore before looking for groups.

    Maybe warm ammo as opposed to cold outside ammo, same for the barrel.

    With good secured mounts and shooting proven ammo I'd look at the scope.
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    AzAfshinAzAfshin Member Posts: 2,986 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    3" Offset: The rifle is a scout rifle, as such the railing for the scope mount does not come all the way back over the breech, so in order to get the scope at the correct eye relief it needs offset rings (like an AR offset rings, but on a bolt rifle).

    The eye relief is perfect for me, that's why I went with the offset rings. As for the height, it's a bit higher than my other rifles, but not by a lot.

    The bore and all surfaces were cleaned very well (all copper was removed), lubed, and bore was wiped with a dry boresnake prior to shooting.

    Ammo temp shouldn't be an issue since both instances were shot at an indoor range.

    I wonder if offset scope rings are known to have torsional issues. Maybe I should go with higher quality rings. Or it could be the scope is a dud.
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    charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,579 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would try a different scope first. Do your rings seem to fit the scope tube well?
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    swearengineswearengine Member Posts: 1,329 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    With a scout rifle set up. I don't believe you have proper eye relief unless you have scout style scope which will have 6-8 inches of eye relief. You could also be suffering with parallax. And to top it off, the rings are too high and you are bringing your face off the stock and not maintaining a proper cheek weld every shot.
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    AzAfshinAzAfshin Member Posts: 2,986 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The rings fit pretty good. I lapped them and they seem to hold fairly good.

    Swearengine, I do have the proper eye relief with the 3" offset. This let's the scope sit 3" closer to my eyes so I don't need a scout scope. As for the cheek weld, I have an adjustable cheek pad.

    I do appreciate all the feedback gents. Please keep them coming because this one has me stumped. The only thing I haven't done yet is to mount a laser on the rifle barrel to see if the scope is moving between shots (or maybe the crosshairs are moving).
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    bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,664 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Me thinks you have a scope issue. I just ran into one helping a friend T-giving morn. Try ANY different ammo you might have to see if the grouping is the same.
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    MobuckMobuck Member Posts: 13,862 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Trying to make something what it wasn't originally designed to be can incur some speed bumps. I'd blame inconsistent eye position first.
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    AzAfshinAzAfshin Member Posts: 2,986 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Mobuck
    Trying to make something what it wasn't originally designed to be can incur some speed bumps. I'd blame inconsistent eye position first.


    I'm starting to lean towards this theory. I'm going to take the scope off, shoot with irons, then shoot with an eotech red dot, then put the scope back on and see what happens.

    Bear in mind guys, I may not be a worls class shooter, but can shoot sub-moa consistently. 6-7" groups at 100 yards are so bad that I can't think of one single thing being wrong, so it must be a bunch of things going wrong. So I'm going back to basics and looking into every suggestion all you guys have made. Try to eliminate each one-by-one. May sound painful, but I love shooting, so it's as painful as trying to have a baby [:D]
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    charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,579 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I bought a Remington Varmint Special in 223. All I could in Germany was factory Remington ammo. Rifle shot great. Get home and start to reload for it. 3 sets of different dies in 5 different presses nearly every powder, primer and bullet available at the time late 70's.

    The rifle always shot a little better with their ammo. I gave it to friend who didn't mind buying factory ammo. The rest of the 100+ firearm's preform better with my ammo.

    Keep good notes and good luck.

    If you shoot enough ammo, the entire side of the barn is one ragged hole.
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    armilitearmilite Member Posts: 35,483 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by AzAfshin
    3" Offset: The rifle is a scout rifle, as such the railing for the scope mount does not come all the way back over the breech, so in order to get the scope at the correct eye relief it needs offset rings (like an AR offset rings, but on a bolt rifle).

    The eye relief is perfect for me, that's why I went with the offset rings. As for the height, it's a bit higher than my other rifles, but not by a lot.

    The bore and all surfaces were cleaned very well (all copper was removed), lubed, and bore was wiped with a dry boresnake prior to shooting.

    Ammo temp shouldn't be an issue since both instances were shot at an indoor range.

    I wonder if offset scope rings are known to have torsional issues. Maybe I should go with higher quality rings. Or it could be the scope is a dud.




    Your using the wrong scope you should be using a LER pistol scope and not offset rings to make up for the eye relief.
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    AzAfshinAzAfshin Member Posts: 2,986 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by armilite
    quote:Originally posted by AzAfshin
    3" Offset: The rifle is a scout rifle, as such the railing for the scope mount does not come all the way back over the breech, so in order to get the scope at the correct eye relief it needs offset rings (like an AR offset rings, but on a bolt rifle).

    The eye relief is perfect for me, that's why I went with the offset rings. As for the height, it's a bit higher than my other rifles, but not by a lot.

    The bore and all surfaces were cleaned very well (all copper was removed), lubed, and bore was wiped with a dry boresnake prior to shooting.

    Ammo temp shouldn't be an issue since both instances were shot at an indoor range.

    I wonder if offset scope rings are known to have torsional issues. Maybe I should go with higher quality rings. Or it could be the scope is a dud.




    Your using the wrong scope you should be using a LER pistol scope and not offset rings to make up for the eye relief.


    What's the difference? I know the difference between a pistol scope with a large eye relief and a rifle scope with a 3.5" eye relief. But why should the mounting make a difference? These mounts are used on AR's all the time so why would they not work in this case?
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    armilitearmilite Member Posts: 35,483 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by AzAfshin
    quote:Originally posted by armilite
    quote:Originally posted by AzAfshin
    3" Offset: The rifle is a scout rifle, as such the railing for the scope mount does not come all the way back over the breech, so in order to get the scope at the correct eye relief it needs offset rings (like an AR offset rings, but on a bolt rifle).

    The eye relief is perfect for me, that's why I went with the offset rings. As for the height, it's a bit higher than my other rifles, but not by a lot.

    The bore and all surfaces were cleaned very well (all copper was removed), lubed, and bore was wiped with a dry boresnake prior to shooting.

    Ammo temp shouldn't be an issue since both instances were shot at an indoor range.

    I wonder if offset scope rings are known to have torsional issues. Maybe I should go with higher quality rings. Or it could be the scope is a dud.




    Your using the wrong scope you should be using a LER pistol scope and not offset rings to make up for the eye relief.


    What's the difference? I know the difference between a pistol scope with a large eye relief and a rifle scope with a 3.5" eye relief. But why should the mounting make a difference? These mounts are used on AR's all the time so why would they not work in this case?


    The whole thing is that these mounts are designed to be used with long eye relief scopes. Scout rifles are designed to use LER scopes.
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    AzAfshinAzAfshin Member Posts: 2,986 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    This is how I'm using the offset rings to mount a regular scope so I don't need LER scope. Is this not an acceptable use?


    [img][/img]20151216_093029_zpsrgvuozsz.jpg
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    charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,579 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    That setup screams harmonics at me for some reason. Do you have any dampening pressure at the tip of the forearm?
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    FrancFFrancF Member Posts: 35,278 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Something looks backwards to me. Sure the scope mount does not go the other direction? (Not being Snarky) Something in that photo is not right...
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    AzAfshinAzAfshin Member Posts: 2,986 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm not sure how the harmonics would affect the scope. Bear in mind that with the iron sights the rifle shoots just fine.

    FrancF, you are correct and not snarky at all. I have mounted the rings backwards on purpose. Theoretically, the mounting direction shouldn't make any difference, but if you know of a reason it should, then that might be why I'm having issues.
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    charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,579 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The rifle is a system. There is a big pendulum of weight that can oscillate at one end of the barrel, if there is no dampening force the barrel could be affected at the muzzle end.

    If the rifle still shoots good with iron sights, then its the mounts or the scope that is likely the problem.
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    perry shooterperry shooter Member Posts: 17,390
    edited November -1
    IMHO you are asking for parallax problems with this set up take the rifle as it is with scope mounted put it in some kind of way Sand bages or even laying on a table so you can look through the eye piece end without touching the rifle in any way and the cross hairs on an opject at same distance you want to shoot now move just your head "no contact at all with the rifle" and watch the cross hairs in relationship to where they are on the object move your head left 7 right Up and down do the cross hairs seem to move on the target if so that is your problem the scope parallax is either out of spec or something loose in the lens of the scope you can do the same test with just the bare scope not even attached to the rifle
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    AzAfshinAzAfshin Member Posts: 2,986 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Perry, the scope has parallax adjustment and I used the method you mention to get it as close as possible for 100 yards. I've actually been shooting this out of a lead sled with the scope too [:0] This problem is a real head scratcher. The fam will be out of town for vacation the next couple of weeks, so I'll have plenty of time to work on this problem. I'll post if I figure out the problem.
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    armilitearmilite Member Posts: 35,483 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by AzAfshin
    This is how I'm using the offset rings to mount a regular scope so I don't need LER scope. Is this not an acceptable use?


    [img][/img]20151216_093029_zpsrgvuozsz.jpg



    That whole set up looks totally wrong to me. What power is that scope ??? Just screams to big. Try using the right scope mount with a 4x LER pistol scope.

    I've only had one problem with a scope and mount on a rifle. I had a Weaver 3x9 mounted on a Leatherwood carry handle scope mount. No matter what I did that scope would not shoot right. No matter what I did it wouldn't work. I'm guessing it had more to do with the scope being so high over the barrel. You got at least 2" of hight over your barrel that may come into play as well.

    By using the correct mount with the correct scope you can lower the scope over the bore.
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    Tailgunner1954Tailgunner1954 Member Posts: 7,734 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Point 1, just because it "groups" at powder burn range, doesn't mean the rifle shoots "well"
    Point 2, get rid of that wonky looking mount set up and shoot the rifle at 100yd with only the irons.
    IF it groups decent at 100 with irons, than start with a basic LER setup (mounted onto and over your rail), again at 100.
    IF it is grouping better than it did with irons, than you can start addressing the use of a rearward mounting system.

    Personally, if I wanted a rear position scope, I'd skip the whole rail/extended ring system and have the receiver drilled & tapped for "normal" mounts.
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    AzAfshinAzAfshin Member Posts: 2,986 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ok, finally had a chance to take the rifle with shown setup to the range yesterday. Took all my tools, 5 different brands of ammo each at 3 different grains, and another shooter (in case the problem lies with yours truly).

    I took the scope off, tightened all the screws to spec, mounted the scope back on, made sure things were tight again.

    We both shot the 150gr American Eagle ammo and the best group (from yours truly) was about 6 inches at 100 yards.

    Next, Fusion ammo gave a group size of 1 inch at 100 yards for 150gr, 165gr, and 180gr.

    BINGO, we have our culprit. American Eagle 308 ammo SUCKS, not my setup, not me, and not my equipment.

    I am surprised that it made such a huge difference and wonder if I should send an email to them.
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    charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,579 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Interesting. Can you check the bullet runout on the bad ammo.
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    NeoBlackdogNeoBlackdog Member Posts: 16,818 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I wonder how it would do with some Federal 168 grain Gold Medal Match. You might shrink that group even more!
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    AzAfshinAzAfshin Member Posts: 2,986 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by charliemeyer007
    Interesting. Can you check the bullet runout on the bad ammo.


    That's an interesting idea. If that's the problem then I can fix the few hundred rounds I have left.
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    swearengineswearengine Member Posts: 1,329 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If you would have told us in the OP that you were using 2 different types of ammo, we would have mentioned that right away.

    Curious as to what the grouping at 25 yards is with the American Eagle?
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