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Help with scope mount issues - UPDATE
AzAfshin
Member Posts: 2,985 ✭✭
A couple of months back I bought a Savage Scout rifle. I put three rounds through it with the iron sights at 25 yards into pretty much one hole (could barely see the 3 clovers). So the rifle shoots fine.
I purchased a mid-price 3" offset one piece scope rings and mounted a Nikon Monarch on the scope. The ring piece is on the rifle pretty tight. The rings on the scope each have 4 screws torqued to 25. So everything is snug.
Took it out to 100 yard indoor range and it's grouping 6-7". I know I'm sub-moa shooter, the rifle shoots well, the scope is snug, and I used a string at 100 yards to get my scope leveled out.
Why is it grouping so bad? What am I overlooking?
I purchased a mid-price 3" offset one piece scope rings and mounted a Nikon Monarch on the scope. The ring piece is on the rifle pretty tight. The rings on the scope each have 4 screws torqued to 25. So everything is snug.
Took it out to 100 yard indoor range and it's grouping 6-7". I know I'm sub-moa shooter, the rifle shoots well, the scope is snug, and I used a string at 100 yards to get my scope leveled out.
Why is it grouping so bad? What am I overlooking?
Comments
Have you cleaned the bore with a good copper solvent like Shooter's Choice. JB Bore paste is helpful with new barrels. At least one fouling on a clean bore before looking for groups.
Maybe warm ammo as opposed to cold outside ammo, same for the barrel.
With good secured mounts and shooting proven ammo I'd look at the scope.
The eye relief is perfect for me, that's why I went with the offset rings. As for the height, it's a bit higher than my other rifles, but not by a lot.
The bore and all surfaces were cleaned very well (all copper was removed), lubed, and bore was wiped with a dry boresnake prior to shooting.
Ammo temp shouldn't be an issue since both instances were shot at an indoor range.
I wonder if offset scope rings are known to have torsional issues. Maybe I should go with higher quality rings. Or it could be the scope is a dud.
Swearengine, I do have the proper eye relief with the 3" offset. This let's the scope sit 3" closer to my eyes so I don't need a scout scope. As for the cheek weld, I have an adjustable cheek pad.
I do appreciate all the feedback gents. Please keep them coming because this one has me stumped. The only thing I haven't done yet is to mount a laser on the rifle barrel to see if the scope is moving between shots (or maybe the crosshairs are moving).
Trying to make something what it wasn't originally designed to be can incur some speed bumps. I'd blame inconsistent eye position first.
I'm starting to lean towards this theory. I'm going to take the scope off, shoot with irons, then shoot with an eotech red dot, then put the scope back on and see what happens.
Bear in mind guys, I may not be a worls class shooter, but can shoot sub-moa consistently. 6-7" groups at 100 yards are so bad that I can't think of one single thing being wrong, so it must be a bunch of things going wrong. So I'm going back to basics and looking into every suggestion all you guys have made. Try to eliminate each one-by-one. May sound painful, but I love shooting, so it's as painful as trying to have a baby [:D]
The rifle always shot a little better with their ammo. I gave it to friend who didn't mind buying factory ammo. The rest of the 100+ firearm's preform better with my ammo.
Keep good notes and good luck.
If you shoot enough ammo, the entire side of the barn is one ragged hole.
3" Offset: The rifle is a scout rifle, as such the railing for the scope mount does not come all the way back over the breech, so in order to get the scope at the correct eye relief it needs offset rings (like an AR offset rings, but on a bolt rifle).
The eye relief is perfect for me, that's why I went with the offset rings. As for the height, it's a bit higher than my other rifles, but not by a lot.
The bore and all surfaces were cleaned very well (all copper was removed), lubed, and bore was wiped with a dry boresnake prior to shooting.
Ammo temp shouldn't be an issue since both instances were shot at an indoor range.
I wonder if offset scope rings are known to have torsional issues. Maybe I should go with higher quality rings. Or it could be the scope is a dud.
Your using the wrong scope you should be using a LER pistol scope and not offset rings to make up for the eye relief.
quote:Originally posted by AzAfshin
3" Offset: The rifle is a scout rifle, as such the railing for the scope mount does not come all the way back over the breech, so in order to get the scope at the correct eye relief it needs offset rings (like an AR offset rings, but on a bolt rifle).
The eye relief is perfect for me, that's why I went with the offset rings. As for the height, it's a bit higher than my other rifles, but not by a lot.
The bore and all surfaces were cleaned very well (all copper was removed), lubed, and bore was wiped with a dry boresnake prior to shooting.
Ammo temp shouldn't be an issue since both instances were shot at an indoor range.
I wonder if offset scope rings are known to have torsional issues. Maybe I should go with higher quality rings. Or it could be the scope is a dud.
Your using the wrong scope you should be using a LER pistol scope and not offset rings to make up for the eye relief.
What's the difference? I know the difference between a pistol scope with a large eye relief and a rifle scope with a 3.5" eye relief. But why should the mounting make a difference? These mounts are used on AR's all the time so why would they not work in this case?
quote:Originally posted by armilite
quote:Originally posted by AzAfshin
3" Offset: The rifle is a scout rifle, as such the railing for the scope mount does not come all the way back over the breech, so in order to get the scope at the correct eye relief it needs offset rings (like an AR offset rings, but on a bolt rifle).
The eye relief is perfect for me, that's why I went with the offset rings. As for the height, it's a bit higher than my other rifles, but not by a lot.
The bore and all surfaces were cleaned very well (all copper was removed), lubed, and bore was wiped with a dry boresnake prior to shooting.
Ammo temp shouldn't be an issue since both instances were shot at an indoor range.
I wonder if offset scope rings are known to have torsional issues. Maybe I should go with higher quality rings. Or it could be the scope is a dud.
Your using the wrong scope you should be using a LER pistol scope and not offset rings to make up for the eye relief.
What's the difference? I know the difference between a pistol scope with a large eye relief and a rifle scope with a 3.5" eye relief. But why should the mounting make a difference? These mounts are used on AR's all the time so why would they not work in this case?
The whole thing is that these mounts are designed to be used with long eye relief scopes. Scout rifles are designed to use LER scopes.
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FrancF, you are correct and not snarky at all. I have mounted the rings backwards on purpose. Theoretically, the mounting direction shouldn't make any difference, but if you know of a reason it should, then that might be why I'm having issues.
If the rifle still shoots good with iron sights, then its the mounts or the scope that is likely the problem.
This is how I'm using the offset rings to mount a regular scope so I don't need LER scope. Is this not an acceptable use?
[img][/img]
That whole set up looks totally wrong to me. What power is that scope ??? Just screams to big. Try using the right scope mount with a 4x LER pistol scope.
I've only had one problem with a scope and mount on a rifle. I had a Weaver 3x9 mounted on a Leatherwood carry handle scope mount. No matter what I did that scope would not shoot right. No matter what I did it wouldn't work. I'm guessing it had more to do with the scope being so high over the barrel. You got at least 2" of hight over your barrel that may come into play as well.
By using the correct mount with the correct scope you can lower the scope over the bore.
Point 2, get rid of that wonky looking mount set up and shoot the rifle at 100yd with only the irons.
IF it groups decent at 100 with irons, than start with a basic LER setup (mounted onto and over your rail), again at 100.
IF it is grouping better than it did with irons, than you can start addressing the use of a rearward mounting system.
Personally, if I wanted a rear position scope, I'd skip the whole rail/extended ring system and have the receiver drilled & tapped for "normal" mounts.
I took the scope off, tightened all the screws to spec, mounted the scope back on, made sure things were tight again.
We both shot the 150gr American Eagle ammo and the best group (from yours truly) was about 6 inches at 100 yards.
Next, Fusion ammo gave a group size of 1 inch at 100 yards for 150gr, 165gr, and 180gr.
BINGO, we have our culprit. American Eagle 308 ammo SUCKS, not my setup, not me, and not my equipment.
I am surprised that it made such a huge difference and wonder if I should send an email to them.
Interesting. Can you check the bullet runout on the bad ammo.
That's an interesting idea. If that's the problem then I can fix the few hundred rounds I have left.
Curious as to what the grouping at 25 yards is with the American Eagle?