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Barnes LRX in 264 win mag

hadjiihadjii Member Posts: 971 ✭✭
Wondering if anybody has any experience with this combination? I'm trying to find an acceptable load with this bullet in my Ruger 77 Hawkeye. Ive worked with IMR 4831 all morning. At 54.0 grains, I'm getting a 3/4 inch group, but according to the lyman 50th manual, that's below starting load, the nosler lists it at the low end or below. The barnes manual I have doesn't list the LRX bullet. As soon as I load 55 grains and up to 58 grains, the grouping really opens up. I haven't chronographed the 54.0 grain load, but my concern is that I'm not getting the velocity I want or should get a with the 264. I've tried the start load of 58.0 grains of 7828SSC, and it was at 2 inches or better grouping, which to me isn't worth a hoot. OAL length I have been loading at is 3.300. I'm wondering if a 1-9 twist is too slow. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Comments

  • nononsensenononsense Member, Moderator Posts: 10,648 ******
    edited November -1
    hadjii,

    First of all, Barnes recommends the use of a 1:8" twist or faster. Now this doesn't necessarily hold true unless you're trying to use a mid-velocity cartridge like the 6.5x47 Lapua in a shorter barrel.

    Second, you're about 8 to 10 grains of powder short for the loads to approach the upper end of the pressure curve. Your loads are barely enough to get the bullet past the muzzle...[:D]

    Re-25
    H-1000

    You could try H-4831 but 64 grains will be the top end, I think.

    Call Barnes to get some updated info.

    Best.
  • hadjiihadjii Member Posts: 971 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Nononsense, I don't know how I can be 8-10 grains short when the nosler manual lists 58.5 grains as max for a 130 grain accubond. The hodgdon website lists 57.8 grains as max for a 130 grain bullet, and the lyman manual lists 59.0 grains as max for a 129 grain bullet. I started at 53.0 and went to 58.0, and the only group that was acceptable was 54.0. All others sucked. I also tried 63.0 grains of 7828ssc, and the 3rd shot locked up the bolt. Ain't gonna do that again. The only thing I can figure is the twist is too slow.
  • charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I never liked 4831 in a 264 Win mag. I also never cared what the velocity was - group size is everything to me.

    The extra long bearing area of all copper bullets is a factor in loading data and twist rate required. I would think 1-9 is enough if you push them fast enough. A .75" group indicates a stable bullet to me. Try some regular 130 gr good bullets and see if you can get below .75" I like bullets three to five thousands out of the rifling with as little run out as I can get. I prefer a full case of powder or nearly so, even lightly compressed.

    Harmonics are interesting. I like 5# of up pressure at the end of the stock with the rest of barrel free floating.

    So is that .75" group at 100 yards?
  • hadjiihadjii Member Posts: 971 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Charliemeyer, I've shot 3 groups of 130 grain swift sciroccos today, loaded with REL 17, which I interchange with IMR 4350 grain for grain. All 3 groups were between 5/8 and 3/4 inch at 100. Shot a group of 139 grain norma fmj's and it was a fuzz over 1/4 inch as well as a group of 140 grain remington accutips, where 2 shots were literally through the same hole and 1 shot 3/8 inch to the 3:00 position. I never load max loads, and always put accuracy ahead of velocity, but was just a bit concerned that loading so low, I wouldn't get adequate velocity for the bullet to do its job.
  • charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would guess that at the lower velocity of perhaps 2600 fps the bullet will work as nicely as at 2900 fps.

    Always good to actually check terminal performance. I'm currently working up a load for all copper bullets in a 223 for a friend. Group size is 1/3 of cheap bullets at about 3 times the price.
  • nononsensenononsense Member, Moderator Posts: 10,648 ******
    edited November -1
    hadjii,

    You and I have danced around these same subjects for years without problems. Here is what I am observing and you can make your choices from there on:

    I note that Nosler has declared a case capacity of 78 grains for their proprietary cases. My Winchester cases (from a 1999 batch) hold 82.2 grains. So right off the bat there is a 4 grain difference if you're using Nosler cases.

    If you refer back to the powders I suggested, they are noted as being slower but complete burning powders for filling medium magnum cases to 100%. When you check the fill ratios for the Nosler or Hodgdon, you will see that the ratios sit around 75% - 85% of capacity. Well, their load for Retumbo sits at 88% but the pressure reading is 45, 000 PSI with an anticipated velocity of 2987 fps.

    Here's what I'm suggesting. Stop with the faster powders as the fill ratio stinks and the achieved velocities are not what they could be with slower powders. I can get to where they suggest with a smaller cartridge (6.5mm Creedmoor) using the same bullet.

    H-1000 will get you to 3150-3200 fps with a slightly compressed load running at an optimum pressure of approximately 56-58,000 psi.

    I am noting though that you detected a stiff bolt lift on one load which should not have been a problem. You might want to check to see the chamber and throat length just in case something like a carbon ring has shown up.

    Cast off the frustration and start a new day!

    Enjoy the process!

    Best.
  • hadjiihadjii Member Posts: 971 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well, this is what I know for sure nononsense. You have a vast, vast amount of experience, knowledge, and expertise that I do not have, and so I respect your opinions immensely. As such, I'm not willing to supersede the parameters set forth by the reloading manuals, so when a particular manual says that x amount of powder is the max recommended charge weight, then I respect that as well.
    Frustrated? Nope,not at all. I have a rifle that will shoot extremely well considering the only part that isn't factory is the stock. I was merely asking a question. I just happen to have a box of Barnes LRX bullets, and a supply of 4831 and 7828 powder. If I can't get my rifle to shoot these bullets with the powder I have, heck, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, I'll just not buy any more. As far as enjoying the process, I absolutely do. If I was retired, and had unlimited resources (as in money), I'd fool around all day with these projects. However, such is not the case.
    And so, I'll just scrap the barnes bullets and stick with what does shoot well. I seriously doubt any deer I shoot will know the difference anyway.

    Best
  • Okie743Okie743 Member Posts: 1,975 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I reload for and play around with 264 Win mags, one of my favorite long range calibers.

    You might try H4831 and H1000 powders.

    I use 120gr and 140 gr premium bullets like nosler partitions and the 264 guns really likes the Nosler accubonds for excellent one hole accuracy. I glass bed the guns and float the barrels starting 2 inchs in front of the chamber area. I do not shoot 5 shot groups with a 264 and I always make sure that the gun places the first shot of a COLD barrel reload at same point as the 2nd and 3rd shot.

    Load a 3 shot min load of each powder and a middle of the range load with bullets you want to test. If you hit onto a slow burning powder that the GUN LIKES for accuracy the powder load will not be critical.
    Can vary up or down by 1 1/2 grains or more and still have excellent accuracy)

    I have yet to see a 264 win mag that likes IMR4831 for accuracy with most any bullet and if it does kinda like it the powder load will be very critical and accuracy will vary with temp and time of day, and how you hold your mouth, USUALLY.

    I use the less expensive flat base 120 gr Sierra Spitzer varmiters for varmits, coyotes and have put them on ground at 550 yards using same powder loads as the Noslers but don't use this bullet for deer sized game out of a 264, the bullet will blow up like a hand grenade (usually) at close range at the High velocity when it hits a bigger animal and not penetrate.
    I also do not use any Hollow point rapid expanding bullet out of 264 for big game.
  • hadjiihadjii Member Posts: 971 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks okie for the input. I've noticed one thing with my 264, and that is that it shoots 140 gainers better than anything else. I did manage to shoot a 5/8 inch group with 156 norma oryx's though, but can't remember what powder I used. My rifle also shot one of its best groups with 140 rem accutips and IMR 4831. 2 shots through the same hole, 1 shot 3/8 inch to the 3:00. So far, my go to load is REl 17 and 130 swift sciroccos. I want to say 54.5 grains, but I'm at work so I can't say for sure.

    My 264 has had some work done that I did myself. Put on a $650 dollar mcmillan stock, pillar bedded, action and 2 inches of barrel glass bedded, and replacing trigger spring and honing the mating surfaces. Trigger is at 2 3/4 pounds. Not quite as good as the timneys on my other 77's, but still better than factory.

    Okie, I just looked at the hodgdon data center to do some comparisons. Retumbo tops the velocity for 130 grain accubonds at 3090 fps at max recommended load. H1000 and IMR 4350 are virtually the same at 3005 and 3007 fps respectively. IMR 7828 was at 3053, and the others were mostly in the 2950ish range. Not alot of difference, really.
  • Okie743Okie743 Member Posts: 1,975 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Only way to really know what a gun likes for accuracy is testing and then I let the gun tell me what it likes instead of me telling the gun what is SHOULD like from looking at SUGGESTED loads.

    Quite often I've seen guns that are same caliber, same make and appear to be twins but not like the same reloads for accuracy. (and sometimes the two identical LOOKING rifles don't even like the same bullet style, bullet weight or powder)
  • nononsensenononsense Member, Moderator Posts: 10,648 ******
    edited November -1
    hadjii,

    Apparently I have come across as being slightly pedantic with regard to my analysis of your predicament. It has never been my intent to tell you or anyone else that they should violate the stated variations written in loading manuals. EVER. If I have given you that impression, I apologize for not being more specific.

    Here is an article which supports some of my conclusions drawn from an entirely different viewpoint. There is some good load data as well as chronograph data with regard to several loads.

    http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.264+Winchester+Magnum.html

    I will suggest that you try to get some chronographic data, which you said you were working on.

    I have reams of data which supports the loading process I use and the results are slightly different from yours which is why I suggested the powders I did.

    Again, please be aware that I always support careful and safe reloading practices on every level. If I gave you a different impression, I apologize.

    Best.
  • Okie743Okie743 Member Posts: 1,975 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by nononsense
    hadjii,

    Apparently I have come across as being slightly pedantic with regard to my analysis of your predicament. It has never been my intent to tell you or anyone else that they should violate the stated variations written in loading manuals. EVER. If I have given you that impression, I apologize for not being more specific.

    Here is an article which supports some of my conclusions drawn from an entirely different viewpoint. There is some good load data as well as chronograph data with regard to several loads.

    http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.264+Winchester+Magnum.html

    I will suggest that you try to get some chronographic data, which you said you were working on.

    I have reams of data which supports the loading process I use and the results are slightly different from yours which is why I suggested the powders I did.

    Again, please be aware that I always support careful and safe reloading practices on every level. If I gave you a different impression, I apologize.

    Best.




    nononsense:

    That link did not work for me.

    Says something like page not found.

    Can you try again with a link?

    Thanks.

    hadjii: just some info to consider.
    Also I seen where you had a hard bolt lift on one reload.
    I get a heads up fast and immediately save that case for close inspection if I experience hard bolt lift on a belted mag. (even if it's just one reload case)
    I first check the hull OAL and if it's within specs I check the belted mag length. If the belted part of the case is stretched it indicates headspace issue and/or hi-pressure. (I'm trying to determine if that case itself is weak and stretching or if it's the gun or the reload, etc, and I know from logged records that that case has been reloaded same number of times as the others and they did not have hard bolt lift.)

    Resizing a case that is stretched at the belted portion will not re-size that stretched area on a belted Magnum using regular dies.

    I have some grandkids that hunt with 264 and 7mm magnums (Remington and Weatherby) plus other big caliber guns using reduced reloads (from reloading manuals) that are very accurate at 30/30 velocities.
  • nononsensenononsense Member, Moderator Posts: 10,648 ******
    edited November -1
    Oakie743,

    I think I fixed it, something weird in the way it copies from that website. If it doesn't function as a direct link, copy and paste it into your browser.

    Best.
  • Okie743Okie743 Member Posts: 1,975 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Got the link.
    good info.

    Thanks

    I've bought Nosler blem solids 6.5mm (264) at very reasonable prices by careful shopping. (kinda hard to find today)

    Blemished bullets by nosler are cosmetic blems only and accurate out of my 264's and great performance on large game. (the blemished bullet won't scare deer if you don't show them the blemish before you shoot them)[:o)]

    You can shop around on-line for such or ask over in the expert section about finding blem bullets.
  • hadjiihadjii Member Posts: 971 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    OK, so I went and bought a pound of Retumbo to see what it would do for me. I started out with 59.0 grains with an OAL length of 3.310, which is .050 off the rifling, which is where the Barnes tech recommended it be. At 59.0, group size was 1 1/2, at 60.0, group size was 1 1/4, at 61.0, group size was 1 1/8, and at 62.0 group size opened back up to 1 7/16, and that's where I stopped. I tried to get some chronographed loads, but it was so cloudy, my chronograph errored out on every shot. I guess the bright side is that by and large, Retumbo gave me more consistent accuracy with what had to be greater velocity. I would hunt with my 61.0 load without any concern, but I think I'll try Retumbo with 130 gr swift sciroccos, and see what I have there. I'm gonna have to do it quick though, cause we're really rolling with harvest, and in addition to my full time job at Lennox, I also haul fertilizer for the co-op in the fall, so sleep and shooting take a back seat for a couple of months.
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